How would YOU load your shotgun for Home Defense?

[sholling]

Having looked down the barrel of a 12ga pointed squarely at my face from about 10 feet away I can attest that in such a situation that gaping 12 bore looks big enough to be a freaking railroad tunnel. That's plenty to stop most bad guys (and impress a good guy like me), and I'm pretty sure that in many cases that the sound of the bolt going home will be cause for getting the carpet cleaned without ever drawing blood. Many but not all...

Roy reali brings up some good points about the effect of bird shot at very close range but fails to take into account that we don't all live in the same situation. If I lived in an apartment with kids next door then no question I would be loading up with #8, and might even consider a less than lethal round as the first up the pipe (I'll still have my .45). I'm an old fart and as much as I value my own hide there is no way I'm putting a kid at risk.

If I were an inner city father living in serious gang territory then yes I would be loaded up with 00 buck and would have multiple bandoleers loaded with full power slugs at the ready. This doesn't mean walking around looking like Pancho Villa, it just means being prepared. People in that situation don't have the money to move to better neighborhoods or they would already be gone. Gang members, especially multiple gang members cannot back down from a fight or their own friends will punk them! In this situation being seriously prepared may be the difference between life and death. It's also worth noting that LE will not plunge headlong into some of those areas. There are a few that they won't even fly over. You could be on your own for some time. Maybe a day or more if the last LA riots are any predictor.

If I lived out in the country I would also be loaded up with 00 buck and have at least one or two bandoleers loaded with 00 buck or slugs. Not because I expect trouble, but because help is so far away.

I live in a nice middle class neighborhood with a reservation on one side, retirees on another, and a lower middle class neighborhood in another. The surrounding communities include a sprinkling of middle class neighborhoods with the questionable neighborhoods at least a few miles away. All of the abundant meth labs are several miles past the other side of town, and I'm only 10 minutes from the local sheriff's substation so I don't feel like I'm likely to be in the middle of any wars. On the other hand the gun battles on the reservation do get a mite hairy. Anyway my point is that we all live in different circumstances and it's best not to judge paranoia levels without knowing those circumstances.

[roy reali]

Have you ever seen what happens to a pheasant when some knucklhead shoots one at point blank. The bird literally is disintegrated. If the equivalent amount of someone's chest is pulverized they are going to be hurt badly. A pheasant weighs several pounds. Remove several pounds of someone's chest and you will have ruined their day.

[DonR101395]

Have you ever seen what happens to a pheasant when some knucklhead shoots one at point blank. The bird literally is disintegrated. If the equivalent amount of someone's chest is pulverized they are going to be hurt badly. A pheasant weighs several pounds. Remove several pounds of someone's chest and you will have ruined their day.

I have also ripped the breast from the chest bone with my bare hand while cleaning a pheasant. That doesn't mean I can do the same thing to a full grown man. You're comparing apples to elephants they aren't even close to being similar.
I'll bow out since you're not going to see the point I'm making and I won't agree with yours. No need to turn the thread into something it shouldn't be.

[roy reali]

You mentioned that shotgun pellets penetrate three to five inches of balistic gel at five yards. So, if someone is shot with birdshot at 15 feet they will have a couple of hundred projectiles penetrating their chest. The pellets will go three to five inches inside. I am looking at my chest right now. Five inches from the skin surface of my chest are some of my more important organs. I wouldn't want to experience that.

How long would it take you to grab a live pheasant and with your bare hands rip it into a million pieces? A short range shotgun blast does it instantly.

[Hawg]

[/quote roy reali]
I'm sorry about your firend but I'm glad he is alright. What shape was he in right after he got shot? I mean, would he have been able to continue a fight if he was in one? Did he need assistance or was he able take himself to the hospital? I hope this doesn't sound too insensitive, however a good point might be made here.[quote]

He was quite incapacitated, had to have emergency surgery. They removed half his stomach and he has a really nasty looking scar. His whole left side from his belly button over is sunk in and scarred. You can see lots of tiny scars all around it from individual pellets.

[Rmstn1580]

If I lived alone I would use 10 gauge 000 buck. Then again I am known to over-do things :barf:

[Deaf Smith]

My wife, having been a ER nurse, Truma I nurse, OR nurse, CVICU, CVOR, etc....

Has seen many a gunshot wound. Close range 12 guage birdshot chest wounds don't look bad (but ALL were carried in) but when they cracked open the chest most of the internal organs are hit. Stopping all the bleeding usually does not work and they die on the table.

Just do this experiment. Get some kind of old meat, and shoot it at 3 feet with your favorite birdshot load and see the rat-hole wound. Then do it at 15 feet and see not only how close the pattern is but how deep it goes.

I can tell you it will reach the heart, lungs and liver easly. And it will also reach all those artieries.

I would not hesitate using bird shot at indoor range. The pattern will not spead out that far and the load will still penitrate to vitals. Nice part is the load won't go outside the target either. You will actually deliver the whole ouce and a quarter, plus shot collumn and any wadding, on target.

If you worry about penitration (or lack of it) just use high base or 'baby' magnums.

[roy reali]

Blaspheme!

[ShootemDown]

I have also ripped the breast from the chest bone with my bare hand while cleaning a pheasant. That doesn't mean I can do the same thing to a full grown man.

Men dont really have enough breast for you to get a good hold in the first place

But about the birdshot and the 3-5 inches... what if the BG is wearing a thick leather jacket ?

[rantingredneck]

Has seen many a gunshot wound. Close range 12 guage birdshot chest wounds don't look bad (but ALL were carried in) but when they cracked open the chest most of the internal organs are hit. Stopping all the bleeding usually does not work and they die on the table.

No disrespect intended but these stories are posted all the time. My contention with them is simply that they are anecdotal evidence and unmeasurable.

It's also interesting that they all lived long enough to make it to the ER and into surgery. How many 00 buckshot wounds COM at the same distance do that? I would venture that many are declared at the scene and go straight to the morgue. Now, before anyone accuses me of wanting to kill the BG who just broke into my home vs. stop him, let me clarify. If Birdshot is survivable through the EMS response time and the trip the the ER and into surgery that tells me that the BG with a gun in his hand that I just shot with birdshot will very likely have time to shoot back at me, possibly killing or injuring me or a loved one, before he succombs to his wound. That is why I use buckshot.

I never said birdshot won't kill someone, it obviously will at close enough range. I'm not interesting in creating a wound that someone will die due to blood loss 3 hours from now on an operating table. I'm more interested in creating an immediately incapacitating wound that will make them cease all hostilities. Then we'll let EMS sort out the rest. If they survive, great. If they don't that was the natural result of their chosen profession.

[roy reali]

I have shot at various objects at close range with birdshot. Don't ask why. Curiosity I guess. But I can assure you, at a few feet a birdshot load puts gapping holes into things. Objects are destroyed, demolished, ravished, annihilated, pick your your own adjective, but you get my point.

Now, what is special about the construction of a human chest that would prevent a close range birdshot blast from causing major damage.

I don't want to come across as more of a smart alec then I am, but maybe BG's are constructed differently in other places. I know that around here if I place the muzzle of my shotgun a few feet from someone's chest they will go down. I guess our BG's here are wussies.

[rantingredneck]

Objects are destroyed, demolished, ravished, annihilated

Any calibrated ballistic gelatin tests involved in that? Human tissue is not wood, or plastic milkjugs or beer cans. You can't compare the two realistically and based on that say 100% that birdshot will reliably stop a human attacker before they can take you with them.

[roy reali]

At near point blank, a jackrabbit is shredded with birdshot. Aim at the rabbits front shoulder and from there to its head virtually disappears. No, its not ballistic gel or even human flesh. But it is flesh and it ain't that different from us. If that much of a humans chest is equally destroyed it is lights out. I am talking about a few feet of distance from the barrel. I agree with you, much beyond that things change rapidly. When distances start getting measured in yards, birdshot effectiveness drops rapidly. But at inches it is capable of stopping someone.

Another poster here mentioned a penetration of up to five inches at five yards for bird shot. At five feet I assume the little pellets would penetrate a little more. Two hundred or so objects penetrating a persons chest are bound to encounter some important organs. If the first five inches of my chest is damaged I think I could call in sick.

[wolfdog45]

I keep my Mossberg 590 loaded with 8 rounds of "000" buck with a empty chamber.

[rantingredneck]

Aim at the rabbits front shoulder and from there to its head virtually disappears. No, its not ballistic gel or even human flesh. But it is flesh and it ain't that different from us. If that much of a humans chest is equally destroyed it is lights out

It's very different. Rabbits don't have slabs of pectoral muscle over their chest or as thick a sternum or ribs protecting the internal organs. They also don't wear clothes or heavy jackets. I agree the wound will be gruesome and you'll certainly need to do more than call in sick, but could the BG still raise a weapon and pull the trigger? That's the question. Not whether the wound will be mortal (it probably will).

With buckshot COM the distance of my hallway there will be definite circulatory and CNS damage to the point where near immediate collapse should result. I don't trust birdshot at that same distance to be effective. If the BG is within inches of you and your shotgun you've got problems at that point beyond even buckshot's ability to resolve.

[rantingredneck]

For me it all comes down to one question. Do police and military who are expected to engage and stop human targets use birdshot for the job? No? Then I will not keep birdshot loaded in my home defense shotgun whose purpose is to engage and stop human targets who may break into my home.

[roy reali]

http://WWW.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus

Click on the second link on the related articles on the right side once you reach this website.
The site I referenced here is not the right one. I'll try to fix it.

[rantingredneck]

All I'm seeing is an abstract regarding a cancer study in rats.

[roy reali]

Click on the website I posted above. You will see the word "for" next to a blank box. Type the numbers 9855793 in that box and click "go". It will take you to an article about treating shotgun wounds. I realize that you may know more then a doctor about th effects of gunshot wounds. In that case I give up!

[rantingredneck]

Got this:

Department of Surgery, Gundersen Lutheran Medical Center, La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601, USA.

Shotgun slug injuries have received little attention while shotgun pellet wounds have been well described. Twenty-two shotgun pellet and 13 shotgun slug injuries treated over a 14-year period were retrospectively reviewed. Extremity and thoracic wounds were most frequent in both groups. The incidence of vascular and nerve injuries was similar for slug and pellet wounds. Angiography was more often used to evaluate pellet wounds for vascular disruption. The rate of wound infection was 38% for slug wounds versus 32% for pellet injuries. Tissue grafting was more frequently necessary for reconstruction after pellet injury. Long-term disability was documented in 15% of patients with pellet wounds and 23% with slug wounds. Despite similarities in wound location and outcomes, the ballistic differences between shotgun slugs and pellets resulted in significant differences in wounding characteristics and extent of injury which have important ramifications in management.

PMID: 9855793 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I fail to see how this applies to the discussion at hand though.

And for the record I never claimed to know more than a doctor about treating shotgun wounds. Inane comments such as that add nothing to the discussion.

[roy reali]

Thanks for posting that report.

If you read it, it says that shotgun injuries from slugs and pellets were similar. It says that thoracic damage was about the same. So, if a slug or buckshot has this great knock down force, then pellets should to. Apparently doctors treat both type of wounds in the same way.

Another point. I think we are comparing apples and oranges. You mention that police officers don't load their weapons with birdshot. A peace officer might after shoot at someone at a farther distance then most homeowners do. In fact, looking around my house, I couldn't make a shot of more then twenty feet or so at anyone. At anything more then a few feet, buckshot is far better. But if you shoot at someone at distances measured in yards you better have an understanding DA in your area along with a victim friendly civil jury.

[rantingredneck]

If you read it

I did.

it says that shotgun injuries from slugs and pellets were similar. So, if a slug or buckshot has this great knock down force, then pellets should to. Apparently doctors treat both type of wounds in the same way.

Where in that report do you translate pellets to birdshot. Buckshot are pellets too, yes? They make no mention or distinction in size of pellet. Besides, treatment of shotgun wounds means nothing in terms of fight stoppage.

Another point. I think we are comparing apples and oranges. You mention that police officers don't load their weapons with birdshot. A peace officer might after shoot at someone at a farther distance then most homeowners do. In fact, looking around my house, I couldn't make a shot of more then twenty feet or so at anyone

Distance from my bedroom doorway to furthest point (corner of living room by the plasma TV) = 32 ft or 10.66 yds. Distance to foyer from bedroom doorway = 18ft or 6 yds. Here's the kicker though....I have a small 1200 sq/ft house. I actually got out my tape measure for this.

Just because its inside the house doesn't necessarily translate to ranges of a few feet.


From theboxotruth.com:

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"

From firearmstactical.com

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Table 1. Lead Birdshot

Shot
Number Pellet Diameter
(Inches) Average Pellet
Weight (Grains) Approximate # of
Pellets per Ounce
12 .05 .18 2385
11 .06 .25 1750
9 .08 .75 585
8 1/2 .085 .88 485
8 .09 1.07 410
7 1/2 .095 1.25 350
6 .11 1.95 225
5 .12 2.58 170
4 .13 3.24 135
2 .15 4.86 90
BB .18 8.75 50

Table 2. Lead Buckshot

Shot
Number Pellet Diameter
(Inches) Average Pellet
Weight (Grains)
4 .24 20.6
3 .25 23.4
2 .27 29.4
1 .30 40.0
0 .32 48.3
00 .33 53.8
000 .36 68.0

Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches.

I'm satisfied with 00 buck. Do as you will.

[roy reali]

A "Box Of Truth" device can't be compared to human flesh anymore then cans or pieces of wood.

[rantingredneck]

That wasn't the point of me posting that. Read further.

[roy reali]

The "Box of Truth" website is interesting. But you helped me post a link to an article written by two Thoracic Surgeons. One is a site about some guy shooting different projectiles into a device, the other contains words from men that have treated shotgun wounds. I know which I would trust more. In other words you tend to believe a guy that shoots stuff into a contraption, I lean towards guys that treat chest wounds. We all have our own biasis I guess.