Remingtom model 10 shotgun, help wanted!

vikingm03 · November 1, 2010, 12:28 PM

Hey everyone.

I have an old remington model 10 shotgun that i need some advice on fixing up or not. It needs a new stock and i have found a place that has one, but before i buy anything i want to find out about a few things that concern me. Ive taken the gun apart and everything looks ok, trigger and safety are in good working order, no damage that i can find, however...

The barrel wiggles. The model 10 has a strange (to me at least) design where the barrel threads onto the receiver and is quickly detachable. I have read a guide that says how to adjust the tightness of the barrel on the receiver, however i think i am out of adjustment room. The adjusting sleeve and the receiver have these teeth that need to line up, and so there is only about 45 degrees of adjustment in the adjusting sleeve before the teeth will not line up anymore. I have it at the tightest it will go on this 45 degree sweep, but the barrel still has a slight wiggle. If i were to go past the 45 degrees and do a full 360 so the teeth line up again, the barrel will not thread onto the receiver since it is too "tight" and the threads are not lining up anymore. So... is a slight wiggle normal for this shotgun? I suspect not, but thought i would ask. If not, What causes the barrel to come out of adjustment? In other words, how do i fix the problem?

Also, is there anything else that model 10 experts would suggest checking out before i start spending money to fix this thing up?

Thanks.

Goatwhiskers · November 1, 2010, 12:45 PM

IIRC Brownells has a ring shim for M12 takedown shotguns that may be useful. That having been said, when the M10 gets old and worn it develops timing problems from the various camming surfaces and between parts and labor it becomes a question of being worth the money to fix. There are more modern shotguns available. Your call. Here endeth the epistle. Goatwhiskers the Elder

vikingm03 · November 1, 2010, 01:46 PM

Thanks goatwhiskers.

Would you by chance know how to find the model 12 shim on the brownells site? I searched for a while but could not find anything.

So, the model 12 is similar to the model 10 then? Are there any other parts that interchange?

About the timing problems, i guess my next step will be to get some 12ga dummy rounds and test the function.

Im still trying to scope things out and see how much it would be to get it in firing condition, and how much it is worth to me.

Thanks.

Scorch · November 1, 2010, 02:44 PM

If you are out of adjustment and the barrel still wiggles, you are probably looking at extensive rework to make the shotgun work safely. Make sure you are turning the sleeve the right direction, there is a little arrow stamped into the rear of the barrel flange (whatever it's called) right next to the little screw you took out to make the adjustment. Make sure you are turning the sleeve in the direction of the arrow to tighten (counterclockwise). I am currently in the proces of reworking a Rem Model 10 for a friend, and he is $200 (stock $90, reblue $100, scews $10) into it already, any more and it would have been easier to just buy an 870.

vikingm03 · November 1, 2010, 04:43 PM

Scorch - yep im turning the adjustment sleeve the right way. Just double checked myself also by going to the complete other end of the adjustment and the barrel became very loose then.

What exactly is it that is wore to make my barrel out of adjustment? Is it that the ring that attaches the forearm to the barrel has moved forward on the barrel?

The gun is complete other than needing a new stock. The bluing is bad looking but does still protect the gun very well, so i wouldnt re-blue it anytime soon.

As for the cost of an 870 vs fixing the model 10, im just looking for a fun gun to shoot at the range and the model 10 is a very unique gun, along with me having received the gun from a family member. Though, if it would take a lot of money to fix i would just leave it in its current condition.

Scorch · November 1, 2010, 06:30 PM

Quote:

What exactly is it that is wore to make my barrel out of adjustment?

The Remington Model 10 (like the Winchester Model 12) is from the heyday of takedown firearms. It was designed for black powder/black powder equivalent pressures, and like many of those old shotguns it has been "shot loose". This happens because the bolt locks into the receiver for firing, but the shell headspaces on the mouth of the chamber, which is part of the barrel. This causes the two assemblies to try to force themselves apart when the gun fires. These parts are not very hard, and are pretty plain steel, so they wear and deform when the gun is fired. Not really an issue with black powder, but smokeless powder loads have steadily increased in pressure and velocity over the past 75 years. The slight hadspace built into the cartridges allows the action to cycle freely when operated, but it gives the barrel assembly a "running start" so to speak when the gun is fired. Even a couple of thousandths of an inch can batter the threads on the headspace adjustment ring and receiver within just a few rounds, especially when firing 2-3/4" magnums.

Quote:

im just looking for a fun gun to shoot at the range and the model 10 is a very unique gun, along with me having received the gun from a family member.

My friend's Mod 10 is the same way, it was Grampa's shotgun, and sat around in a closet for 40 years because the stock was damaged, and he just wants to hunt with it a few times for memories' sake. I would never recommend extended use of it as a hunting shotgun, though. If you are looking for an ongoing project, you have it. It will break, wear out parts, and bind up for no apparent reason as it wears further. My advice is pretty monotonous: put it back in working order if you like, and retire it while it still works.

James K · November 1, 2010, 09:26 PM

That Model 10 is an old Pedersen design. One of Pedersen's crosses to bear was that he always had to work around John Browning's patents, after JMB had patented the easy and simple way to do something. So Pedersen's designs tend to be quite complex, and that Model 10 proves it.

One point, I assume Goatwhiskers meant a Winchester Model 12, which has a similar setup, but the parts are not the same. (The Remington Model 12 was a pump action .22 rifle.)

I have worked on a lot of those Model 10's and they just plain wear out. The carriers are a big weak point, and that takedown barrel is another. When they start to go, it is one thing after another until the gun becomes a money pit. Parts are nearly non-existent and the guns don't have the collector interest that the Winchester Model 12 has, so there is little profit in making repro parts. My advice is to hang it on the wall.

Just some history on takedown guns. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the only practical way to travel any distance was by train. So sportsmen heading for the game fields or shotgun matches travelled by train and a cased take-down gun was of a convenient size for storage in the passenger car's overhead rack. As travel by automobile became common, and rail travel slowly became a thing of the past, the reason for takedown guns disappeared.

Jim

vikingm03 · November 1, 2010, 10:45 PM

Scorch - That story sounds eerily familiar... are you sure your not secretly fixing up my gun or something?

So it could be the two threaded pieces beaten beyond spec. Are there any other parts that when shot out could contribute to my loose barrel, or are the threads the main culprit? The threads looked good when i had it apart, however just a little give from both could account for my slight wiggle i guess.

Jim - Thanks for clarification on the model 12, and the nice history lesson.

I might end up doing what you advise and keep it as is if there are more problems than just the barrel. First things first, im going to get some blanks and cycle them through the gun, see if the loading and extracting functions work well. However, if everything else works and i find out what to do with the barrel (and if its not expensive or hard to fix) im willing to put the effort into fixing it, if only to use once or twice a year for fun, and maybe using low power loads only.

So, does anyone have any idea how to track down the wiggle problem? I can take pictures of anything if needed.

James K · November 2, 2010, 02:20 PM

Scorch did a good job of explaining the source of your "wiggle problem." The mechanism has a means of coping with a certain amount of looseness, but beyond that there is no practical "fix". Like any other threaded connection, if the threads get worn and compressed the joint will be loose and with parts being unavailable, there is damall you can do about it unless you want to pay a bunch of money to a master machinist to make parts.

If fired, it won't blow up, but it will continue to loosen up until there could be a real problem. Give the old gun an honorable retirement.

Jim

November 1, 2010, 12:28 PM	#1
vikingm03 Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Posts: 49	Remingtom model 10 shotgun, help wanted! Hey everyone. I have an old remington model 10 shotgun that i need some advice on fixing up or not. It needs a new stock and i have found a place that has one, but before i buy anything i want to find out about a few things that concern me. Ive taken the gun apart and everything looks ok, trigger and safety are in good working order, no damage that i can find, however... The barrel wiggles. The model 10 has a strange (to me at least) design where the barrel threads onto the receiver and is quickly detachable. I have read a guide that says how to adjust the tightness of the barrel on the receiver, however i think i am out of adjustment room. The adjusting sleeve and the receiver have these teeth that need to line up, and so there is only about 45 degrees of adjustment in the adjusting sleeve before the teeth will not line up anymore. I have it at the tightest it will go on this 45 degree sweep, but the barrel still has a slight wiggle. If i were to go past the 45 degrees and do a full 360 so the teeth line up again, the barrel will not thread onto the receiver since it is too "tight" and the threads are not lining up anymore. So... is a slight wiggle normal for this shotgun? I suspect not, but thought i would ask. If not, What causes the barrel to come out of adjustment? In other words, how do i fix the problem? Also, is there anything else that model 10 experts would suggest checking out before i start spending money to fix this thing up? Thanks.

November 1, 2010, 02:44 PM	#4
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	If you are out of adjustment and the barrel still wiggles, you are probably looking at extensive rework to make the shotgun work safely. Make sure you are turning the sleeve the right direction, there is a little arrow stamped into the rear of the barrel flange (whatever it's called) right next to the little screw you took out to make the adjustment. Make sure you are turning the sleeve in the direction of the arrow to tighten (counterclockwise). I am currently in the proces of reworking a Rem Model 10 for a friend, and he is $200 (stock $90, reblue $100, scews $10) into it already, any more and it would have been easier to just buy an 870. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

November 1, 2010, 10:45 PM	#8
vikingm03 Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Posts: 49	Scorch - That story sounds eerily familiar... are you sure your not secretly fixing up my gun or something? So it could be the two threaded pieces beaten beyond spec. Are there any other parts that when shot out could contribute to my loose barrel, or are the threads the main culprit? The threads looked good when i had it apart, however just a little give from both could account for my slight wiggle i guess. Jim - Thanks for clarification on the model 12, and the nice history lesson. I might end up doing what you advise and keep it as is if there are more problems than just the barrel. First things first, im going to get some blanks and cycle them through the gun, see if the loading and extracting functions work well. However, if everything else works and i find out what to do with the barrel (and if its not expensive or hard to fix) im willing to put the effort into fixing it, if only to use once or twice a year for fun, and maybe using low power loads only. So, does anyone have any idea how to track down the wiggle problem? I can take pictures of anything if needed. Last edited by vikingm03; November 1, 2010 at 10:55 PM.

November 1, 2010, 12:45 PM	#2
Goatwhiskers Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2009 Location: Batchelor, La. Posts: 579	IIRC Brownells has a ring shim for M12 takedown shotguns that may be useful. That having been said, when the M10 gets old and worn it develops timing problems from the various camming surfaces and between parts and labor it becomes a question of being worth the money to fix. There are more modern shotguns available. Your call. Here endeth the epistle. Goatwhiskers the Elder

November 1, 2010, 01:46 PM	#3
vikingm03 Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Posts: 49	Thanks goatwhiskers. Would you by chance know how to find the model 12 shim on the brownells site? I searched for a while but could not find anything. So, the model 12 is similar to the model 10 then? Are there any other parts that interchange? About the timing problems, i guess my next step will be to get some 12ga dummy rounds and test the function. Im still trying to scope things out and see how much it would be to get it in firing condition, and how much it is worth to me. Thanks.

November 1, 2010, 04:43 PM	#5
vikingm03 Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Posts: 49	Scorch - yep im turning the adjustment sleeve the right way. Just double checked myself also by going to the complete other end of the adjustment and the barrel became very loose then. What exactly is it that is wore to make my barrel out of adjustment? Is it that the ring that attaches the forearm to the barrel has moved forward on the barrel? The gun is complete other than needing a new stock. The bluing is bad looking but does still protect the gun very well, so i wouldnt re-blue it anytime soon. As for the cost of an 870 vs fixing the model 10, im just looking for a fun gun to shoot at the range and the model 10 is a very unique gun, along with me having received the gun from a family member. Though, if it would take a lot of money to fix i would just leave it in its current condition.

November 1, 2010, 09:26 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	That Model 10 is an old Pedersen design. One of Pedersen's crosses to bear was that he always had to work around John Browning's patents, after JMB had patented the easy and simple way to do something. So Pedersen's designs tend to be quite complex, and that Model 10 proves it. One point, I assume Goatwhiskers meant a Winchester Model 12, which has a similar setup, but the parts are not the same. (The Remington Model 12 was a pump action .22 rifle.) I have worked on a lot of those Model 10's and they just plain wear out. The carriers are a big weak point, and that takedown barrel is another. When they start to go, it is one thing after another until the gun becomes a money pit. Parts are nearly non-existent and the guns don't have the collector interest that the Winchester Model 12 has, so there is little profit in making repro parts. My advice is to hang it on the wall. Just some history on takedown guns. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the only practical way to travel any distance was by train. So sportsmen heading for the game fields or shotgun matches travelled by train and a cased take-down gun was of a convenient size for storage in the passenger car's overhead rack. As travel by automobile became common, and rail travel slowly became a thing of the past, the reason for takedown guns disappeared. Jim

November 2, 2010, 02:20 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Scorch did a good job of explaining the source of your "wiggle problem." The mechanism has a means of coping with a certain amount of looseness, but beyond that there is no practical "fix". Like any other threaded connection, if the threads get worn and compressed the joint will be loose and with parts being unavailable, there is damall you can do about it unless you want to pay a bunch of money to a master machinist to make parts. If fired, it won't blow up, but it will continue to loosen up until there could be a real problem. Give the old gun an honorable retirement. Jim