Let's talk .380's

[Kevster]

I own a handful of .380s; here's my take. No opinion on ones not listed here - just haven't tried any but these. Micro Desert Eagle = Beautiful, reliable, and accurate but it hurts like heck to shoot it and you have to train yourself to hold it correctly or the slide will get you. Browning BDA .380 = All class. Hammer gets my hand a little but I don't mind because it is so awesome to hold, shoot, or even just look at. Glock 42 is best shooting pocket gun I have ever fired. Feels good. Shoots great. Accurate and reliable. Never have trusted Glock "safe" trigger so requires lots of practice. Sig P238 = Not quite as smooth to shoot as Glock but still nice. Sort of like the Glock is concern about the SA trigger in a pocket. I even have a n old Colt hammerless. Would be an awesome ccw if not an antique, although a bit snappy too when shooting it. Just my 2 cents worth. FYI I am daydreaming about a Browning .380 1911.

[kmw1954]

Welcome to the group Kevster! From another Kev

Sounds like a nice stable of 380's you've got there. I've just gotten one of the Witness Pavona 380's and am still waiting to acquire a Beretta 84 Cheetah. Have looked into that Browning 1911 also and it proves to be interesting.

[SonOfScubaDiver]

Rock Island Armory also makes a 1911 styled 380. They call it the Baby Rock.

[dgludwig]

Check out Greg Elfritz' article on results of actual shooting results - the .380 is right up there with 38 spcl, 9 mm, and 40 S&W.

If you were able to review and analyze all of the "actual shooting results" in America over the past fifty years or so involving human beings in terms of basic ballistics and attendant "stopping power" factors, do you really believe that the .380 ACP would be determined to be the equivalent of the .40 S&W, or even the 9mm Luger or the .38 Special?

[Kevster]

I love my .380s and I feel safe enough carrying them - when I can't carry my .45 or 9mm. No way are they equivalent to those larger calibers, although better than my bare hands. A colleague I went through training with years ago was an ER physician in a big city. He told me he had treated .38 Special and 9mm victims. He had never treated a .40 or .45 victim - they were always DOA.

[Carl the Floor Walker]

Originally Posted by dgludwig

If you were able to review and analyze all of the "actual shooting results" in America over the past fifty years or so involving human beings in terms of basic ballistics and attendant "stopping power" factors, do you really believe that the .380 ACP would be determined to be the equivalent of the .40 S&W, or even the 9mm Luger or the .38 Special?

Equivalent to what? Dead is dead. 22.cals have killed more people than any other caliber, but is it equivalent to a 45 or 380. We are talking about civilian CCW weapons with most attacks at close range. Anyone doubting the modern day ballistics of the 380. would be making a dreadful mistake.
By the way, you say "or even the 9mm", as if that is a puny cartridge. Funny how the military and the police have now moved to the 9mm rather than the 40.cal.
If you were to review all shooting incidents, over the past 50 years, I would say that not having anything would be more deadly to the intended victim. And most folks do not carry big guns in the modern day world. Having a small pocket gun with you is a big defense factor. I always have my Pocket gun with me, I do not always have a bigger caliber heavier weapon. Just being realistic.

[ftttu]

My wife and I like to watch Joe Kenda, and many of his murder victims were taken out by .380s. It is possible that cheapo .380 pistols are the goto weapons of choice for the murdering class, at least it seems like it watching his show.

Again, a .380, being the same diameter of a 9mm, doesn't have the weight as an average 9mm. Even so, what is wrong with a round that has respectable velocity, reliable expansion to a little over an inch in diameter and stays between 12" and 18" when fired through layers of clothing material and into ballistic gel? The Hornady Critical Defense FTX 90 gr does this, so that's why I trust them in my G42 when I go out and about to the regular places I go.

I feel safer with my G43 loaded with HST 147 +P so that is still my main EDC now that I've been retired.

[Hal]

He told me he had treated .38 Special and 9mm victims. He had never treated a .40 or .45 victim - they were always DOA

I'm 100% fine with that.

My "job" isn't to kill the opponent(s).
My "job" is to survive, with as little damage as possible to myself.
If the other person (or persons) don't survive,,,,oh well...not my problem. They should have considered that before they started down that road.

Really - if all it takes to avert something is a shot through a car window that hits a gun in someone's hand or the hand itself, causing the gun to drop to the ground - - and giving me time to get away.....I consider that a "one shot stop".

& please - - don't jump to the conclusion I'm some sort of "shoot em in the leg" type. I'm always going to go after the spot that I deem is most likely to put an end to things. If a hand or a hand with a weapon in it - gets in the way of things,,,,,then that's the way it goes. If it puts an end to things, fine, If not,,,,get ready for round two .

[kmw1954]

Not everyone owns or purchases a 380 as a Self Defense Weapon.

I bought one as a range gun to use as a training aid. Handloading for it makes it even slightly cheaper to shoot then the 9mm with pretty much the same feel and caricature.
I enjoy the one I have and have been looking at others for the same purpose.

If I can save even just 1 cent per shot loading the 380 over the 9mm well that would pay for at least 1 range visit per year.

[JERRYS.]

the .380acp will kill you deader than Julius Caesar. the .380acp is not close to the ballistic effectiveness of the .45acp. both of these are facts,

what some people are not recognizing is that shooting a person not trying to kill you and shooting a person that is trying to kill you will most often have very different initial results. the criminal on the street shooting a store clerk scared to death during a midnight robbery is not the same as you shooting a person with the mindset of murdering you and your children. this is why the .22lr is "so effective".... when an assassin shoots a person in the head that was oblivious to the murder's presence....

[dgludwig]

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by dgludwig View Post
If you were able to review and analyze all of the "actual shooting results" in America over the past fifty years or so involving human beings in terms of basic ballistics and attendant "stopping power" factors, do you really believe that the .380 ACP would be determined to be the equivalent of the .40 S&W, or even the 9mm Luger or the .38 Special?

Equivalent to what? Dead is dead. 22.cals have killed more people than any other caliber,

Then carry a .22 and be done with it, Carl. I wasn't trying to disparage the .380 as a candidate for a self-defense role, I carry one myself from time to time; only making the point that the .380 is not "...right up there with the 38 spcl, 9mm, and 40 S&W" in terms of basic ballistics and attendant "stopping power". And neither is the .22.

Pellet guns will kill a person if everything is in the right place if you're the shooter or in the wrong place if you're the shootee. Just being realistic.

[Cheapshooter]

expansion to a little over an inch in diameter and stays between 12" and 18" when fired through layers of clothing material and into ballistic gel? The Hornady Critical Defense FTX 90 gr does this

"A little over an inch???
What fantasy videos have you seen?
A 45acp that starts out at nearly a half inch won't double it's diameter. Also the 12" to 18" expansion seems a bit suspect as well.
I.would sure like to see a link to the ballistic gel tests that show a .355 diameter, 90 grain bullet at most likely sub 1000 fps expanding to "a little over an inch"
Everything I have seen has been a little under a half inch.

[ftttu]

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...llistic-tests/ Scroll a little over half way down.

Cheapshooter, my mistake. I accidentally put 1" instead of 1/2". Thanks for the catch.

[Armybrat]

Not a lot of bad guys are going to argue with a licensed handgun carrier who is shootin' at them with a .380 to prevent an attack anyway.

I've got several .380 pistols that are neat little guns:
Remington Model 51
Colt Government
Two Ruger LCPs
Kahr CT380
Remington RM380

Pocket tote one of the LCPs and the Kahr (one at a time), and never feel "naked".

Used to have an AMT Backup and a KelTec P3AT - both were traded off.

[geologist]

We can only buy old short (4" or less) handguns in Canada so I have a single action AMT Backup and an Astra Contable.

I love .380s and wish I could buy a small modern pistol.

[kmw1954]

geologist what kind of silly rule is that? Up there where there are animals that can and will eat you, you are restricted to a 4" handgun. Don't think I've ever heard of anyone here in Wisconsin being mauled and eaten by a dairy cow. Though we have historically had a couple of cannibals!

[geologist]

We are restricted when buying short barrel handguns, long barrels are not a problem.

Shorter than 4" and you need to have owned one prior to 1998.

[otasan]

Originally Posted by JERRYS.

the .380acp will kill you deader than Julius Caesar. the .380acp is not close to the ballistic effectiveness of the .45acp. both of these are facts,

what some people are not recognizing is that shooting a person not trying to kill you and shooting a person that is trying to kill you will most often have very different initial results. the criminal on the street shooting a store clerk scared to death during a midnight robbery is not the same as you shooting a person with the mindset of murdering you and your children. this is why the .22lr is "so effective".... when an assassin shoots a person in the head that was oblivious to the murder's presence....

You got that right.

[Pilot]

I like, and carry both the .380 ACP, and 9x18 cartridges. I prefer the mid size service pistols like the Beretta 85FS, Makarov, and Polish P-83.

[Psychedelic Bang]

Originally Posted by Doc TH

I believe the .380 is satisfactory for defensive purposes. Check out Greg Elfritz' article on results of actual shooting results - the .380 is right up there with 38 spcl, 9 mm, and 40 S&W. In response to a former comment I would certainly trust my life to a .380. However, I have to believe that a larger .380 is practically preferable to a mini-sized pistol; I am thinking of something like a Beretta 84 or Browning BDA ( practically the same firearm, made by Beretta). The high capacity provides a significant advantage, when the circumstances demand so,

The Browning 1911 380 is a very interesting gun. The Pro Compact with night sites is really catching my attention.

Browning's history with FN Herstal https://fnamerica.com/why-buy-fn/

I believe the 1911 380 is made in the FNamerica factory in Columbia, SC

http://www.browning.com/products/fir...o-compact.html


Somebody was saying, "the pocket pistol 380 market is saturated," which is true.. pocket pistol 380's are running around NIB for less than $175 and I've seen a few not Hi-Points in the $135 - $145 range.

That being said, if you want a really nice 380, not microwave safe, from a great gun builder, 1911 style, and with night sites - cough up $650 - $800

[zeke]

Glock 42

[David R]

I posted earlier how my girl liked the Sig 238 I was buying.

Since then, I bought her a used Kimber Micro with cherrywood laser grips. Yes, $600.00.

500 practice rounds loaded up ready for when we pick it up.

David

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by geologist

I love .380s and wish I could buy a small modern pistol [in Canada].

Is the Browning 1911-380 not available there?

I assumed that Canadian sales were behind the decision to market a 4.25"/108mm barrel length, which exceeds the 4.13"/105mm Canadian legal minimum.

[geologist]

The Browning .380 is available in Canada. However since I have 12(6) status I can buy cheaper, short barrel (ie. Prohibited) pistols. They are getting cheaper by the day as the 12(6) population dies off (no new 12(6) licences will be granted).

I just bought a Beretta 950B with 3 magazines for $100 Canadian. It's a disgrace.

This is a slow motion gun confiscation by the Canadian government and one in which they don't have to pay a cent to get these guns removed from the legal population.

It's despicable, immoral and very Canadian.

Guard your 2A rights zealously my American brothers or else you will face BS laws like this.

Prohibited Firearms

Individuals who possess or wish to acquire a prohibited firearm should consult this information regarding the legal requirements under the Firearms Act.

Definition of a prohibited firearm

According to the Criminal Code, a prohibited firearm is:
a.a handgun that ◦has a barrel equal to or less than 105 mm in length, or
◦is designed or adapted to discharge a 25 or 32 calibre cartridge, but does not include any such handgun that is prescribed, where the handgun is for use in international sporting competitions governed by the rules of the International Shooting Union,

b.a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted, ◦is less than 660 mm in length, or
◦is 660 mm or greater in length and has a barrel less than 457 mm in length,

c.an automatic firearm, whether or not it has been altered to discharge only one projectile with one pressure of the trigger, or
d.any firearm that is prescribed to be a prohibited firearm

Summary of key requirements

Individuals are allowed to possess certain prohibited firearms if they had one registered in their name when it became prohibited, and they have continuously held a valid registration certificate for that type of prohibited firearm from December 1, 1998, onward. The Firearms Act refers to this as being "grandfathered".

"Grandfather" status

A Possession and Acquisition Licence (PAL) allows an individual to acquire only prohibited firearms in the same categories as the ones currently registered to them, and only if the firearms they wish to acquire were registered in Canada on December 1, 1998.

As a general rule, a PAL will indicate what prohibited firearms the licence holder is licensed to acquire by showing the section of the Firearms Act that grandfathers them, as follows:
•s.12(2): full automatics
•s.12(3): converted automatics
•s.12(4): firearms prohibited by former prohibition order No. 12
•s.12(5): firearms prohibited by former prohibition order No. 13
•s.12(6): handguns with a barrel length of 105 mm or less or that discharge .25 or .32 calibre ammunition. On licences issued on or after April 10, 2005, these firearms will be referred to as 12(6.1) firearms.

Eligibility to acquire a particular prohibited firearm will be confirmed during the transfer process. Grandfathered status allows the possession and acquisition of prohibited firearms that are already registered in Canada, but not the new importation of prohibited firearms into Canada.

Maintaining grandfathered privileges

To stay grandfathered for a particular category of prohibited firearm, an individual must have continuously held a registration certificate for a firearm in that category from December 1, 1998, onward. To be able to hold a registration certificate for a firearm, an individual needs a licence allowing them to possess that class of firearm. It is therefore essential that firearms licences be renewed before they expire.

All registration certificates issued under the former law (prior to December 1, 1998) expired on December 31, 2002, so it was important to have re-registered the firearm(s) under the Firearms Act before the old certificate expired. Contact the CFP for more information or assistance.

Exception to grandfathering

If a person is not grandfathered, the only prohibited firearms they may possess or acquire are handguns with a barrel length of 105 mm or less or that discharge .25 or .32 calibre ammunition, and only if all of the following criteria are met:
•the handgun was made before 1946, and
•the handgun was registered in Canada on December 1, 1998, and
•the individual is the child, grandchild, brother, sister or spouse of the lawful owner, and
•the individual is acquiring it for an approved purpose such as target shooting or as part of a collection.

Under these circumstances, the individual can lawfully acquire and possess the handgun in question, but they are not grandfathered or authorized to acquire more prohibited handguns.

Selling, giving, or lending

An individual can lend a prohibited firearm to anyone with a valid PAL which authorizes them to possess that particular category of prohibited firearm. If they lend the prohibited firearm, they must lend the registration certificate as well.

They may sell or give a prohibited firearm only to someone with a PAL valid for that category of firearm. When the prohibited firearm changes owners, it must be registered to the new owner. This can be done by calling the CFP or by submitting form RCMP 5492.

Transporting prohibited firearms

All firearms must be unloaded and transported safely to deter loss, theft and accidents. Before transporting a prohibited firearm, it is necessary to obtain an Authorization to Transport (ATT) from the Chief Firearms Officer (CFO) of the province or territory in which the firearm is located. Call the CFP to apply for an ATT or submit form RCMP 5490 and mail or fax it to the relevant CFO.

Firearms must be transported in accordance with the Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms by Individuals Regulations. Prohibited handguns may be shipped between two locations in Canada, using the most secure method offered by Canada Post which requires a signature upon delivery. Alternatively, it may be shipped by a carrier company licensed to transport that class of firearm.

For more information on which firearms are restricted or prohibited, please also consult the Criminal Code and the Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and Other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited, Restricted or Non-Restricted.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by geologist

The Browning .380 is available in Canada. However since I have 12(6) status I can buy cheaper, short barrel (ie. Prohibited) pistols.

I'm with you now. I think of the 1911-380 as small and modern, but you're after something MORE small and modern.

FWIW I'm casually familiar with Canadian laws concerning Restricted/Prohibited firearms, but not necessarily with what's readily available in Canada or how much it costs.

Originally Posted by geologist

It's despicable, immoral and very Canadian.

Oh, that's classic. May I have permission to use this quote in conversation with folks up north, possibly in other contexts?