Max loads in .44 mag S&W?

[Dundgren]

Hi,

I'm thinking about reloading 240gr bullet with 21 grains of VVN110 behind it. Is this considered a max or at least close to max load? I heard smiths are too weak for max loads. How would a model 69 handle this load? I know its a light revolver but im not asking about recoil just the strength of the gun.

I would just get a ruger but smiths just feel way nicer.

Thanks.

[redford1]

Quickload
430.240. Hornady HP/XTP
Barrel 6"
Pmax 31131
1348 fps
107.8 filling
85.05 propellant burnt

So a compressed load

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

[disseminator]

Smiths can handle full power loads just fine. The cartridge was invented for the N-frame revolver so......

Start with the start load and work up to what you want for speed.

http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/reloadi...n-magnum-.html

[Ruga Booga]

Smith revolver is strong. The reason for Ruger only loads is the length of the Ruger cylinder. It is longer so it can handle longer bullets which would stick out the front of the Smith and lock it up

[Stats Shooter]

Smith revolver is strong. The reason for Ruger only loads is the length of the Ruger cylinder. It is longer so it can handle longer bullets which would stick out the front of the Smith and lock it up

Ummm...
Actually the Ruger only loads WERE because the frames of some 44 mag revolvers would stretch after multiple full power loads fired. After 1989, Smith changed the design a bit of N frame revolvers which added some durability.

The Ruger Super Redhawk, The Dan Wesson (which I have one of), and the Tarus raging bull are 3 extremely beefy frames handguns that some of the Buffalo Bore loads can supposedly only be fired in.

There have been reports of light primer strikes after hundreds or a few thousand full power loads in older Smith and Wesson revolvers. I believe the newer ones can handle it, but I am not absolutely sure about that.

You might call Smith and Wesson and ask. I am running 240 gr deep curls in my Dan Wesson 6" barrel at around 1450 fps..... that is a full power load.

[Sevens]

I have never used any Vihtavuori powder so I am not at all familiar with any of them or their published load data. With that said, if you aren't exceeding Vihtavuori's max load then you are making SAAMI-spec ammo.

Every S&W .44 Magnum ever made can safely shoot SAAMI-spec .44 Mag ammo. The 29-no dash, 29-1 and 29-2 revolvers weren't as strong as later revolvers, but all Smith & Wesson revolvers can safely handle SAAMI-spec ammo.

Lots and lots of shooting of full-spec ammo will put wear on a revolver. Most typical shooters will tire of shooting full-spec .44 Mag before their revolver shows extreme signs of wear.

I agree, it's safe to say that a Ruger Redhawk, a Freedom Arms or a Dan Wesson will take MORE abuse than a S&W Model 29, but if the question above is as simple as "can my S&W take it?", then I say absolutely, assuming the load is within published max.

[joed]

When I bought my first used 629-1 I talked to the gunsmith about the strength of the S&W N frames. He told me the 629-1 was a good one and I should have no problems with it.

However, he mentioned that when the earlier .44 Mag N frames were designed they were designed to shoot a 240 gr bullet. His advice was to stay away from the 300 gr bullet as the gun was not designed to shoot it. He told me the use of that bullet would cause the gun to need service sooner then later. I've followed his advice and only use 240/250 gr bullets out of the 629-1 and a 29-2 that I own.

After 18 years both are still working flawlessly. For range shooting I prefer to keep the velocity around 1100 fps from my .44s. The heavier stuff I use for hunting, I see no reason to beat myself or the gun.

[Salmoneye]

Originally Posted by Mississippi

Ummm...
Actually the Ruger only loads WERE because the frames of some 44 mag revolvers would stretch after multiple full power loads fired.

The only "Ruger Only Loads" are for .45 Colt...

[Sevens]

To be fair, in most gun circles, the term "Ruger Only Loads" typically refers to .45 Colt, at modern pressures FAR beyond SAAMI spec for .45 Colt, which is quite low. However, when anyone brings up BUFFALO BORE, forget all the established rules, forget agreed upon standards and consider the rules flexible.

.380 Auto+P ?!
Yeah. Whatever.

[Stats Shooter]

The only "Ruger Only Loads" are for .45 Colt...

No,

From Buffalo Bore:

Owner of Buffalo Bore Tim Sundles on Heavy 44 Magnum +P+ Ammunition:

ATTENTION:This new load is designed ONLY for certain firearms. They are as follows; Ruger Red Hawk, Ruger Super Red Hawk, Ruger Super Blackhawk or Vaquero, Freedom Arms Model 83, Taurus Raging Bull, Colt Anaconda and Dan Wesson Revolvers. Suitable rifles include T/C Encore, "modified" Marlin 1894 (see next paragraph), Winchester 1894, any rifle with a falling block action and the Handi Rifle. We get hundreds of emails asking if this load can be fired in S&W revolvers or some firearm other than what is in the above list. The answer is NO. The above list is all inclusive. If some shooters continue to irresponsibly use this product, we may have to discontinue it and that would be unfortunate as it is our best selling 44 mag. load and it gives great performance for those that use it responsibly however, as is always the case, irresponsible use of any product ends up penalizing responsible users.

The +P and +P+ ammo is recommended only for large and strong framed revolvers.

It is similar to using ruger #1 45-70 or lever action only 45-70 loads in a trap door or H&R rifle. It isn't really that the gun will "explode". It is that revolver frames will stretch, or in the case of the H&R rile, the pivot hole will elongate, and you will start seeing light primer strikes at some point.

There are folks who have shot full power +p+ loads in S&W revolvers, some of them say they have fired thousands of them with no issue. I do not own one so cannot confirm or refute that. But, an ammo maker wouldn't recommend NOT using their product (and losing sales), if there wasn't something to it.

[Chainsaw.]

Before this turns into yet another "this max load vs that max load in whichever gun" discussion lets get back on the topic of your load and your gun.

To your load, I've no idea what that load will produce as far as pressure. Thats the key issue, as mentioned max loads in a gun are, obviously going to be hard on it.

To your gun, it being a model 69/L frame I am of the opinion that it was ment to be 44 special gun that could occasionally shoot mags.

The best advise was given above, ask Smith and Wesson, though they will tell you "do not shoot reloads out of any gun we make".

[Dundgren]

Originally Posted by Mississippi

No,

From Buffalo Bore:



The +P and +P+ ammo is recommended only for large and strong framed revolvers.

It is similar to using ruger #1 45-70 or lever action only 45-70 loads in a trap door or H&R rifle. It isn't really that the gun will "explode". It is that revolver frames will stretch, or in the case of the H&R rile, the pivot hole will elongate, and you will start seeing light primer strikes at some point.

There are folks who have shot full power +p+ loads in S&W revolvers, some of them say they have fired thousands of them with no issue. I do not own one so cannot confirm or refute that. But, an ammo maker wouldn't recommend NOT using their product (and losing sales), if there wasn't something to it.

What does +p+ actually mean? Does that mean it is beyond SAAMI-spec?

[the possum]

The latest load data on Vihtavouri's site shows 22.1 grains as the max load with that powder and a 240 grain Hornady bullet. So your proposed 21 grain load should be a little under max. http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/reloadi...n-magnum-.html

HOWEVER, you always start low and work your way up. Especially with VV powders & data- I almost got myself in trouble once using their older published data for a new gun. Found out the starting charge was too hot for the new gun, and they had since reduced the charge weights in the new data by quite a bit.

[Jim Watson]

What does +p+ actually mean? Does that mean it is beyond SAAMI-spec?

There are only a few calibers for which there is a SAAMI +P chamber pressure specification.
Anything else, it can only signify an unknown overload.
There is no SAAMI +P+ chamber pressure specification for anything.
It can only signify a greater overload.
Buffalo Bore says they know what guns are strong enough for their ammo. I would either pay attention or shoot Something Else.

I don't worry about pressure from Vihtavuori's load data, but everything I have chronographed, their claimed velocity was optimistic, sometimes wildly optimistic.

[mete]

And just what do you expect with hotter loads ?
At long range as in metallic silhouette almost nothing as the poor Ballistic Coefficient slows it down quickly. This can be easily proven with chronograph and charts.
Bullet performance ? Use a premium bullet rather than hotter load.
Other negatives --wear and tear on the gun , more recoil and muzzle blast to deal with . BTW Very often the most accurate load is 1 or 2 grains less powder.
Mine is made in 1979 and still in excellent shape despite many silhouette matches and a bunch of deer !!

[mikld]

Lots of talk, but I'll tell you my experience with a S&W 44 Magnum. I had "Magnumitis" when I started reloading for my 629 in '88. I worked up to near max loads from starting loads as I liked big muzzle blast and wrist breaking recoil. I noticed my groups were drifting to the right and I had to adjust my sights to bring the groups back then I noticed the barrel was turning to the left a few degrees. I asked around (this was pre-web so I contacted the S&W factory too). While the S&W fellers wouldn't say for a fact, admit the problem was from many heavy loads other shooters brought up the possibility of heavy loads causing the barrel twist. I sent the gun to the factory for repair and have since only used moderate loads in it (I also got over my "Magnumitis").

For the OP, from experience I've learned there is no need for max loading of the 44 Magnum. My idea of "needing" heavy loads was misdirected and really as I look back it was kinda childish. If you are a new reloader or new to the 44 Magnum just start with starting loads out of your manual and if you "need" more power work up but stay below book max...

[Salmoneye]

No,

Sorry, Yes...

What you copied and pasted has nothing to do with the term "Ruger Only" which came about in certain reloading manuals specifically referring to .45 Colt loads...

What BB does with .44 Mag loads has nothing to do with the term...

[Stats Shooter]

What you copied and pasted has nothing to do with the term "Ruger Only" which came about in certain reloading manuals specifically referring to .45 Colt loads...

What BB does with .44 Mag loads has nothing to do with the term...

I may have been mistaken, but the hot/high pressure loads causing issues in some 44 mag/special revolvers is what I assumed the OP was asking about. Not cylinder length issues. Usually when this topic comes up, and it does from time to time, it is about frame strength.

But if it is about the cylinder, then disregard

[T. O'Heir]

What does your manual say? If you don't have one, you need one. Or go to Vihtavuori's site. http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/homepage.html
QuickLoad is not a manual.
22.1 grains of N110 is the max load for a jacketed 240. However, you should never just pick a load and hope. You must work up the load.
If any Smith .44 Mag revolver wasn't capable of firing any .44 Mag load, it would not be chambered in .44 Mag. Think in terms of liability.
"...The reason for Ruger only loads is..." Ruger revolver frames are built much stronger than Smith's. It has nothing to do with the length of anything.

[Nick_C_S]

I am of the opinion that it (the model 69) was meant to be 44 special gun that could occasionally shoot mags.

. . . ^^ I'm in this camp too.

To shy away for the details and intricacies of actual load developement; I think it comes down to how long you want your L-frame 44 Magnum to hold up. It's an L-frame. Not an N-frame.

Guns loosen up and wear out. How long do you want it to remain a tight and properly performing firearm?

[SIGSHR]

Elmer Keith said he always winced when he saw that term.

[rodfac]

I own and shoot a Smith Model 69, Combat Magnum in .44 Magnum. The load you describe, like ALL near max .44 magnum loads, especially with 240 gr weight bullets will generate HEROIC recoil. The gun weighs 43.1 oz., fully loaded, according to my wife's kitchen scale five minutes ago, about the same as a Model 19 .357; it also speaks volumes about its recoil potential. By way of contrast, my Smith 629, with 5" full muzzle-length under lug, fully loaded, weighs 50.4 oz...and is still a handful with near max loads. Note the difference, nearly a half pound, and it still HURTS when you touch one off.

That "L" frame M-69 gun is a joy to shoot with 1000 fps 'Skelton' type loads however and it carries well on the belt. It would probably be my first pick if age and eyes would still allow me to follow the Colorado elk herds of my youth. A big bore side arm was always comforting after the kill, back then, especially when packing out...and not carrying a 9+lb. elk rifle. (Packing out quarters of fresh killed elk meat, at dusk, in bear country, unarmed; is a recipe for the 'willies', believe me. So is seeing fresh bear tracks crossing your outbound trail as you head back to the butchering site, for another load a dusk).

My personal load for deer, using 240 gr Hornady XTP's, uses Winchester 296 powder 1.0 grain short of max according to Sierra's Infinity Reloading Manual. It is superbly accurate, cutting very close to an inch for 5 shots over open sights at 25 yds. But it is also about as comfortable as having a MLB player beat your palms with a Louisville Slugger. And I don't care what sort of grip you slap on it...it HURTS. But for KY white tails, out of a stand, it's just the ticket out to 50 yds, and I'll live with the one or two shot pain levels.

As to longevity of S&W N frames in .44 magnum, I'd say they're a lot stronger than your wrist cartilage...neither the gun nor you is going to last forever if you shoot "thousands" of rounds with full house .44 Mag loads. The problems with shooting loose arose when silhouette shooters loaded to max, shot 50 rounds every Saturday, and did it for years. But to those who enjoy that sort of shooting, more power to you...hope you have a good orthopedic surgeon on retainer, 'cause you're going to need him.

Hope I've not offended you "he-men" who claim to enjoy launching heavy lead SWC's at 1400-1500 fps. But it isn't a game for me. Rod

[BWM]

The Smith &Wesson 44M will take what the load Manuel call for. You can load the max if you want to put wear on your gun fast!! I load in the middle and that is most likely to be a target load. A hunting load is the max load for the bullet. Save your powder by loading lighter loads so you can shoot more. Good shooting OH do not use 300 Gr bullets they are for rifle loads.

[Stats Shooter]

Hope I've not offended you "he-men" who claim to enjoy launching heavy lead SWC's at 1400-1500 fps. But it isn't a game for me. Rod

Nope, no more offended than "gamers" shooting noodle wristed powder puff loads because they can't handle anything more than that.

[44 AMP]

While the S&W fellers wouldn't say for a fact, admit the problem was from many heavy loads other shooters brought up the possibility of heavy loads causing the barrel twist.

Friend of mine had this issue (barrel unscrewing) with his 629 (8") in 81. Sent it to S&W, gun came back with the barrel straight, and S&W saying "nothing wrong". He then sold it.

He only had the gun for about 6 months, and the majority of loads shot were NOT heavy magnum loads.

My personal opinion was that it happened because S&W had stopped pinning the barrels not long before, and hadn't yet figured out how to properly crush fit the barrel to the frame.