Is the 5-shot .38 snub still enough?

[bamaranger]

There are now so many video cameras about that one can watch a large number of gun fights every evening for a very long time. In doing this when I should likely be doing something more constructive, I have reached the conclusion that the level of firepower in street shootings had increased, and that multiple suspects are often involved. Which caused me to ponder, is the venerable 5-shot .38 snub now suitable as a primary defensive arm? There sure seem to be a lot of extended mag Glocks, drums and Draco's and chopped AR in fights and assaults these days. Seems like times have changed.

Hey, I like the snubby, 5 for sure, carries easily as the snub may be all you can conceal given apparel limitations, and there is serious .38 ammo these days. But......? I'm not trading my M36, which has gone a lot of places with me, (usually as a second gun) but I'm pretty much to the point where I believe the 5/.38 day has come and gone.

[reteach]

For most of my adult life I have preferred a small revolver as a carry piece.
I haven't watched very many of those gun fight videos but I have watched the news. I also moved to a city where the police department budget was cut a few years ago and now response time for them is terrible. For 7 or 8 years I was carrying a 6-shot revolver with no reload and felt fine about that. About 6 months ago various events around the country and nearby made me think I should step up my edc. I now carry a semi-auto with 8 shots on board and a spare magazine. Like bamaranger, I'm not getting rid of my snubby revolver, but it hasn't been out of the safe for a long time.

[Pumpkin]

I have pocket carried a 642 for some time. Switched to a Shield 2.0, 9mm single stack for a couple of years before going back to the little 38. The Shield is my son’s now, which is fine because if I were to go back for the reason of extra capacity it would be for, wait for it, the 30SC.
Point is, if I’m going to make the change for more capacity, I’m going for the most in as small a package as possible.
I can plink and practice with my son’s 9mm and shoot the 30 just enough to ensure it’s reliability and to stay proficient with it.
Will I leave behind my favorite little revolver and two strip loaders, maybe, I’m thinking about it…

[reteach]

Pumpkin - I was carrying a Ruger LCRX in .327 mag, loaded with .32 H&R mag, in my pocket. I switched to a Glock 42 in .380. [Insert long whining tale about arthritis.] So with the extra magazine, I traded 6 .32s for 15 .380s. The way I dress, the Glock goes easily into my pocket. As far as size of the package, not a lot of difference.

One factor in my decision was the speed of reloading a magazine versus using a speed loader or strip. I could have just added a speed loader on my belt. For the .32, a speed loader is still small and light. But it's a lot faster, for me, to swap out a magazine.

[Sharkbite]

There is a youtube channel (Active self protection is the name) and the host has studied 10’s of THOUSANDS of use of force videos. Some Police body/dash cam, some doorbell cams, some retail store cams.
He has NEVER seen a civilian (non LEO) use a reload to fend off an attacker. NEVER, in like 40,000 vids…NEVER. That is telling. Im not saying dont carry one, im saying you better have enough ammo in the gun to finish that fight.

[Pumpkin]

reteach, no argument here!
When I carried my Shield a spare mag went in my other pocket.
Being totally honest, I feel a little bit better since we started flying some people out of the country. Maybe a small percentage but at least a step in the right direction.

[TailGator]

I went through the same sort of thoughts about 16 years ago, and wound up buying a Glock 26. I never went back to the 642 that I had carried before, and wound up selling it. The extra capacity and quicker reloads seemed wise to me then, and I haven't changed my mind. I have added a .380 for pocket carry since then, used at times when IWB doesn't work for one reason or another, and although capacity is back down, it still is a little more than the revolver, and reloads are still quick.

Someone will probably chime in with remarks about how revolvers are sufficient if your marksmanship is adequate, but when you combine the thoughts that handgun rounds are not going to be reliable in producing stops with one hit, that your hits with moving targets and under stress may not be optimum, and that BGs aren't necessarily committed to working solo, five rounds isn't much, and an extra margin of safety seems smart. That isn't the same thing at all as "spray and pray," like some will assert.

[KMAX]

For me a snub, especially in double action, is considerably harder to shoot accurately at the range, let alone in a stressful situation such as self-defense. It would be a lot easier to miss the target. .38 is not a sure stopper with one round, especially with less than optimal shot placement, which is very likely in a self-defense situation. Considering the possibility of misses and poor shot placement and multiple assailants, five rounds seems to be cutting it close to me. I love .38 snubs for their nostalgia and "glamour", but I think I will stick with a semiauto and extra magazine.

[Shoots Left]

The answer to the question is maybe.

IMHO it’s subjective to the environment in which you: live, play, work or transit.

I feel perfectly content with my LCR in my pocket (it’s a six shot so maybe I’m cheating a little) when it comes along for whenever I feel it’s warranted. I guess I’m fortunate to live and play in a low incident area.

Now that’s not to say that I’m somehow resistant to high capacity auto-loaders. I have a Shield Plus full of 30SC that comes along for the ride if I am leaving my comfort zone.

Also being aware that the one-shot-stop is rather elusive I still believe that the temperature comes way down when the intended victim simply produces a firearm. I believe that many situations have been resolved without even having to fire a shot.

So maybe.

[Swifty Morgan]

I don't get the whole revolver thing. They're beautiful, and they're fun to shoot for sport, and I have a few, but:

1. Not more reliable.
2. Less capacity.
3. Hard to reload fast.
4. Heavy, except for tiny ones and weird alloys.

I carry a Glock 29 with a Crimson Trace. I have 11 rounds ready to go, and 10mm is better than .38. I also have a Glock 26 with a Crimson Trace.

As for never seeing anyone reload during a firefight, how many of those firefights involved Glocks that held 18 rounds? A lot, I'll bet. Eighteen rounds equal 3.6 5-shot revolvers.

Even a Keltec PF9 holds 8 rounds.

[Pumpkin]

Try just pulling the trigger next time your Glock goes click.

[Swifty Morgan]

This must be a well-known revolver-guy argument I have never heard of. I don't know what it means.

[PzGren]

I carry a gun at all times. In the gym it is harder to conceal than when I am dressed normally but I have a gun, at least. I do not feel confident with a six shot revolver since I lived in Haiti and do not care what youtube channel guys post. No two fights are alike. Why carry at all if you are not prepared for a variety of very possible scenarios?

The youtube guys and tactical guys remind me of a 12 year old kid describing sex from a couple of blue movies.

[Swifty Morgan]

^^^

[4V50 Gary]

The very best gun is the one YOU will carry all the time. If it's a 5 shot 38 special, it's better than a rock or a .25 ACP. I would prefer a 3" bbl for a full length ejector rod.

[armoredman]

If it works for you, then use it. I personally prefer a 5 shot 38 snub as a BUG, but when you start talking about back up guns for civilians, the statistics people roll their eyes and start talking all crazy like...

[JohnKSa]

He has NEVER seen a civilian (non LEO) use a reload to fend off an attacker.

I watch most of his videos. I have seen some run out of ammo, but I don't recall a non-LEO reloading.

I have some thoughts.

1. I wonder if more civilians would reload if they had a reload handy?
2. I wonder how many of the unsuccessful self-defense attempts would have had a different outcome if the defender had some more rounds on tap--perhaps in the form of a reload. Certainly not all of them, but maybe some.
3. I like the idea of being able to reload after a shooting while waiting for the police arrive. I've seen video of some pretty hairy post-shooting situations where the attacker has friends.
4. I've seen video of shootings where people drop magazines out of the gun unintentionally during the fracas. Seems like it might be a good idea to have a spare handy just in case.

This must be a well-known revolver-guy argument I have never heard of. I don't know what it means.

I think he's referring to the idea that if you get a click on a typical striker-fired handgun, you'll have to cycle the slide to get it up and running. Just pulling the trigger won't do anything.

[armoredman]

The two loudest sounds in the world, a click when you wanted a bang...and a bang when you wanted a click.

[jmr40]

Try just pulling the trigger next time your Glock goes click.

I've never had a Glock, or any other quality semi-auto go "click". I have seen Smith & Wesson and Ruger revolvers fail. The argument that revolvers are more reliable may have been true 30-50 years ago, but that is no longer the case.

There are some 6+1 semi-auto's in 380 that are smaller, lighter, and easier to conceal than the old 5 shot 38's. There are some small 6-10 round capacity semi-auto's in 9mm that are no harder to conceal than a 5 shot 38.

Most people, including myself, shoot a semi-auto more accurately than a DA revolver. I can't find a valid argument in favor of the revolver.

[glider]

Depending on the hood you're in, you may end up fighting the crowd also! I don't think anyone ever said that their pistol held too many rounds! A 9mm 1911 has a 10 round capacity and a split second reload. A 45ACP 1911 has 1 less round. I'm fine with either and I have both. I do prefer the 45 but it really is about bullet placement. However, I don't want less than a 9MM. Folks like to say that a 12 gauge pump is the ultimate defense weapon, wait a minute, it holds 6 rounds usually and takes a long time to reload! I believe that the odds of being in a self-defense situation are much more likely than it was just 15 years ago. Living in a relatively safe area doesn't mean much anymore, the boys can easily come out here from the hood, better pickings!!!!!

[TBM900]

Why wouldn't it be enough?
Where are all of these incidents of law abiding civilians losing their life for no other reason than only having 5 or 6 shots?

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by jmr40

I've never had a Glock, or any other quality semi-auto go "click".

I have witnessed multiple hundreds of SA malfunctions in my lifetime... maybe even past 1k? Failure to fire, failure to extract, failure to eject, failure to feed, numerous types of jams, etc. Some were operator error, some were due to ammunition, some were inherent to the platform, some were due to the firearm itself failing.

I have even had issues happen to me personally including the firearm itself breaking (2x Glocks).

On the flip side I can count the number of revolver failures I've witnessed on one hand. All were due to improper ammo selection/testing as all were bullet unseating and locking the cylinder in ultra-light frames. The only "broken" revolver I have ever witnessed personally was on a very early Scandium S&W, flame cutting weakened the top strap which started to crack. It was still 100% functional when the crack was discovered, who knows how many more rounds it would have fired before it would have broken.

I have seen Smith & Wesson and Ruger revolvers fail. The argument that revolvers are more reliable may have been true 30-50 years ago, but that is no longer the case.

I call 100% bullsquirt on that assertion.
Spend some time any busy range and you will see failures with SA's
I would bet money on it

Most people, including myself, shoot a semi-auto more accurately than a DA revolver.

That is a shooter problem, not the platform. Over the decades I have found a few things to be 100% certain without exception... One of them is that those who regularly shoot DA revolvers are always "better" shooters than those who only shoot pistols. I have found that to be such a well proven trait that when I have people come to me with difficulty shooting their pistols, I retrain them on a DA revolver. Mastering one WILL make the person a better shooter of all platforms.

I can't find a valid argument in favor of the revolver.

That's because you have already made up your mind

[Paul B.]

My normal CCW piece is a Colt Commander in .45 ACP with an 8 round Wilson magazine and one up the spout for nine shots. I have two back up Wilson 10 round magazines should it be necessary for a reload. I also have an S&W M60 .38 Spl. for a back up gun with one speed loader.

Years back I carried an S&W 6906 9MM that had 11 in the magazine and one up the spout and two more magazines and no back up handgun. I may or may not go back to that one but it is heavier than the Commander.
Paul B.

[Swifty Morgan]

Without getting into the revolver-or-automatic debate, which is silly, since automatics are obviously better, I will say I have had two kinds of FTF's with Glocks.

1. The plastic guide rod snaps. This happened twice, so now I use Wolff springs.

2. Pocket lint clogged up a gun I had been neglecting. Took it out, pulled the trigger, and nothing happened. Talk about a wake-up call.

I have probably had some rounds that failed me, but I don't blame the gun for that. If I did, I would have to say the Glocks are better than my 686+, which got into some horrific PMC ammo.

I would love to carry a bright stainless 1911 or a nickel Model 1908 with pearl grips, but I really need something I can count on. The Glock is like a fat ugly wife that pumps out kids reliably, does the housework perfectly, and won't run off with your best friend.

[Swifty Morgan]

Okay, I'll get back into the fray. There is a famous video of two cops having a firefight with two white supremacist incest products named Kehoe. The participants ended up firing all sorts of rounds and missing each other completely.

If the shooters had been able to keep shooting long enough, one of them would probably have hit somebody. On the other hand, if any of them had had 5-round revolvers, they probably would have been killed as soon as they ran out of ammo.

I don't know why cops shoot so poorly. I have seen it at the range a lot. I have never seen a cop shoot any better than a random housewife with a snubnose .38 she just got for Christmas. But I have seen some expensive hairdos with lots of gel and $300 sunglasses. I have also seen a lot of starched tactical pants and even one pair of 1980's parachute pants.

Seems like the more tactical junk a cop wears, the less likely he is to get on the paper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G3WSwOQD0k