Help Me Understand the Comeback of 10mm

[Kvon2]

Why buy a .357 if all you're gonna use is .38 Special? Because you get one gun that can dish out .40 power and max 10mm power. There's a lot that 10mm can do that .40 can't, same with .357 and .38.

I understand the argumen but in my eyes they are different. There's a convenience factor with 357/38 because they can be fired out of the same gun. It's as simple as picking up two different boxes at the store.

You're not shooting 40sw out of a 10mm. So for hand loaders, I guess they could back down the 10 mm power but where does that leave everyone else?

[Areoflyer09]

There are several factory ammo choices that aren’t particularly warm. The S&B is 180gr @ 1150fps and it was 14.99 the last time I bought it.

[Kvon2]

I still don't get it.

Maybe I just need to buy one to figure it out

[Areoflyer09]

Hard to argue that logic! It’s an addictive round.

[CDW4ME]

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

To an extent. I don't feel that fully loaded 10mm is needed (or even desired because there's not enough real world evidence) for defense against people, but the good .40 S&W ammo has a lot of evidence to show it is a great stopper, a great barrier penatrator, and is superior to standard pressure and +P 9mm.

The 10mm's claim to fame is it is the one mainstream rimless pistol cartridge that is sufficient for large, dangerous game.

Ever see someone post the beaten cliche, "Handguns suck at stopping people" or something similar. (Weak rationalization for carrying a less powerful caliber.)

Using the premise that increasing power is desirable as long as the shooter can effectively (subjective) control the pistol.
(My comments will likely be dissected (not by you) to validate 9mm cause of fastest follow up shots, cost, ect... like I am unaware of those advantages).

Refer to my link in reply #18 for pics supporting the premise than increased KE offers more potential

My wife has a Ruger 1911 CMD 9mm lightweight, have not chronographed it yet, so I will use data I obtained from Glock 19 which has similar length barrel.

I've tested some of these bullets by placing 4 layer denim in front of water filled gallon jugs and penetration is equivalent, back of 3rd jug, crack/dent 4th; (generalization that 10mm overpenetrates invalid) what is not equivalent is visible impact / damage to the jugs.

9mm Federal HST 147 gr +P @ 1,044 fps / 356# KE (recovered diameter ~.63)
45 acp Federal 230 HST @ 891 fps / 406# KE (recovered diameter ~.87)
45 acp Winchester 230 Ranger T @ 915 fps / 428# KE
45 acp Remington Golden Saber 185 +P @ 1,157 fps / 550# KE
10mm Handload 180 Gold Dot @ 1,152 fps / 531# KE (recovered diameter ~.80)
10mm Handload 180 Nosler @ 1,228 fps / 603# KE (recovered diameter ~.68)

1911 platform:
My wife is able to shoot the lightweight 9mm CMD obviously quicker than my steel full size 1911, best choice for her, capacity of 9+1 is a bonus.
For me, the subjective recoil difference in a stout 45 acp like Ranger T 230, or 185 Golden Saber +P and my 10mm handloads is insignificant.

Why 10mm? I get an extra round capacity and more KE.
Referring back to the lame cliche "handgun suck at stopping people" - pick a caliber that sucks the least ... 10mm

[TruthTellers]

^ Yeah, I mean if someone feels they need more power, more ft-lbs of energy and they want that in a pistol that's cheaper than a Coonan or Desert Eagle and the ammunition is cheaper too, then 10mm is the best option.

I like the ability with certain cartridges to have a variable power spectrum. With 10mm you can go from strong 9mm power all the way up to almost .41 Magnum power, while in .327 you can go from .22 LR power up to almost .357 levels of power.

[agtman]

I understand the argument but in my eyes they are different. There's a convenience factor with 357/38 because they can be fired out of the same gun.

Sure you can fire 10mm and .40S&W out of the same gun. It's called a S&W 610 revolver - or now, Ruger's 10mm SRH.

Both wheelies use 10mm moonclips (holding 6 rds). So you pop in one clip with 10mm or another with .40S&W. ... Or, if you want some real fun, have the cylinder chambers of either revolver reamed out to 10mm Magnum specs, and you can then shoot all three cartridges using the same clips from the same gun. Easy-peasy.

You're not shooting 40sw out of a 10mm. So for hand loaders, I guess they could backdown the 10mm power * * *

First, I don't water-down my 10mm handloads to ".40-level" velocity. What's the point? I own pistols in 10mm in order to be able to shoot real 10mm ammo, factory or reloads. Otherwise, I would've just bought a .40 pistol and been done with it.

Second, if I do want to shoot something 'fluffy-n-swishy' out of one of my Glock 10mms, which, frankly, is rare, there's a simple solution. I just install an aftermarket .40 tube and start cranking off rounds of .40 ammo until I forget it's not a 9mm ('cause that's what most target-grade .40 ammo feels like out of a G20) and re-install the 10mm tube, and return to the Happy Land of the High-Performance 10mm AUTO.

[Kvon2]

First, I don't water-down my 10mm handloads to ".40-level" velocity. What's the point? I own pistols in 10mm in order to be able to shoot real 10mm ammo, factory or reloads. Otherwise, I would've just bought a .40 pistol and been done with it.

Well you may not, but if you look back through this post it seems a good number of folks do.

[Skans]

Hi Point makes a 10mm carbine if you consider Hi Points to be guns.

I'd really like to know how these 10mm carbines perform. Nice price point.

[dano1200r]

Originally Posted by Kvon2

I promise I am not trying to spark a caliber war, I know its been done.

It seems 10mm is the caliber of shot show this year and people are really excited about it. Having no experience with 10mm, I have to admit, I'm confused.

The .40sw seems to be on a decline in favor of the 9mm for reasons of cost, easier recoil, faster follow up shots, capacity, etc...

So people don't like the .40sw because of the reasons I listed above, yet 10mm is now the craze?

For those with 10mm experience, how does the recoil compare to that of a 40sw? If it is more of a push and less of a snap(how I would compare a 45 to a 40) then I guess I understand some of the praise.

Thoughts?

A Comeback? From what? It was never that popular or well adopted. As the posts above show, which left off 45 super, it looks more like millimeter envy, not ballistics.
Flame away.

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[Lohman446]

I get the .45 Super, the AE cartridges, and the other things out there that have more power than the 10MM. You also missed the .40 Super which seems intriguing.

Still none of these are available in anything that gives me 10 shots like a G29 does. The Glock line-up (and probably some others) does a lot for the 10MM in bringing it "to the people" who don't want to spend high end 1911 money, want a beat around the truck or tackle box gun, and just want simple.

Frankly the G29, to me, is the SP101 of the auto-loader world. Is it the best at anything? No. For various individual uses there are better guns and cartridges. Still for a one gun "do all" pistol... yep

[agtman]

Originally Posted by Kvon2
I promise I am not trying to spark a caliber war, I know its been done.

It seems 10mm is the caliber of shot show this year and people are really excited about it. Having no experience with 10mm, I have to admit, I'm confused.

The .40sw seems to be on a decline in favor of the 9mm for reasons of cost, easier recoil, faster follow up shots, capacity, etc...

So people don't like the .40sw because of the reasons I listed above, yet 10mm is now the craze?

For those with 10mm experience, how does the recoil compare to that of a 40sw? If it is more of a push and less of a snap(how I would compare a 45 to a 40) then I guess I understand some of the praise.

dano1200r: A Comeback? From what? It was never that popular or well adopted. As the posts above show, which left off 45 super, it looks more like millimeter envy, not ballistics. Flame away.

Wow, snarky is as snarky does. All of 21 posts and you're doing the idjit troll thang.

Job well done, troll.

[dano1200r]

Not a troll at all, but in over 100 posts the OP premise is never questioned. I like the power of the 10mm, but why should I buy a new gun when an hk usp will have 12+1 shooting 45 super?
To answer the OP, it's being touted because of sales. Everyone looks for the new next best thing, even if it's pulling up a little used cartridge that has limited use for almost anyone who isn't selling new 10mms.

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[agtman]

Not a troll at all, but in over 100 posts the OP premise is never questioned. I like the power of the 10mm, but why should I buy a new gun when an hk usp will have 12+1 shooting 45 super?

Because references to the .45 Super don't answer the O.P.'s question, which was about the 10mm's resurgence ... Just a guess there.

To answer the OP, it's being touted because of sales. Everyone looks for the new next best thing, even if it's pulling up a little used cartridge that has limited use for almost anyone who isn't selling new 10mms.

Dude, the 10mm has been the "new next best thing" since 1983; it's been in resurgence since at least 2003; and factory 10mm ammo can be found on the shelf of virtually every gun store in the U.S. of A., which ain't the case with the .45Super.

[Lohman446]

The 45 Super is safe in, what, one production handgun? Even the the manufacturer doesn’t support it. You can’t buy ammo anywhere and virtually no one has heard of it. It’s irrelevant to the question at hand

[NWPilgrim]

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

How do you think I feel?

I bought a new Glock 35 two years ago because I wanted a .40 that was easy to convert to a 9mm. I could have just gotten a 10mm Glock instead, but at the time, reloading for 10mm wasn't on my mind. Seeing how it's coming back and seeing the versatility of it, I'm having second thoughts.

I mean, with the G35 it's still a great size for 9mm and .40 S&W. I know it will be reliable as the smaller magazines would probably wobble in the larger frame Glocks, but the 10mm is becoming more and more obvious as a better choice than .40 S&W.

BTW, you can convert any .45 ACP Glock to shoot 10mm with a barrel change and a stiffer recoil spring.

I'm in the same boat. I have a G22, couple of G23, and G27, with a AA .22LR and 9mm barrel conversion for the G23s. And I was already handloading. From what I see the G29 would be a practical carry piece and the G20 would be good for home or woods. Lately I have been thinking I should have gone with the 10mm and have everything I have with the .40 PLUS full power 10mm for woods carry/camping.

BUT, at the time the 10mm was waning and brass was not easy to find. But a .40 conversion barrel would have solved that, since for the woods I don't need thousands of cases for reloading. Probably a couple of hundred 10mm cases would have held me over for many years. I am |-| close to getting a G20gen4.

[BBarn]

Originally Posted by dano1200r

Not a troll at all, but in over 100 posts the OP premise is never questioned.

Perhaps you really didn't read all the posts. Go back to page 2.

[wild cat mccane]

Commercial loads don't exist for the 10mm powerhouses.

Speer's "Bonded" bullet is an older technology predating the Gold Dot. Speer's Gold Dot load just came out last month with a 200gr Gold Dot at 1100FPS. Speer/CCI (also owned by Vista that owns American Eagle-it's not ATK) knows what their doing. Gold Dots probably fail at higher FPS-ie come apart.

The ammo quest on 10mm showed it well. The 160gr 10mm Speer Bonded bullet nearly comes apart. You aren't gaining anything by having to drive a cruddier technology faster when the performance is the same.

There isn't a premium self defense round in 10mm that needs to be 10mm hot and XTPs that are loaded for 10mm aren't great for it either as the round is a hunting round (Xtreme Penetration in the title).

Range fodder is the S&B 10mm 180gr. Those are about right at 40 levels. So $16 a box online to shoot 40 in a larger framed gun. Na. Pass.

If you make your own fine. But the market really doesn't support 10mm with a bullet worth buying in 10mm.

[dano1200r]

Originally Posted by agtman

Because references to the .45 Super don't answer the O.P.'s question, which was about the 10mm's resurgence ... Just a guess there.



Dude, the 10mm has been the "new next best thing" since 1983; it's been in resurgence since at least 2003; and factory 10mm ammo can be found on the shelf of virtually every gun store in the U.S. of A., which ain't the case with the .45Super.

Dude, it never surged, so how could it resurge?
And yes, it's all about sales volume.

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[tennsooner]

So when you walk into your local gun shop people can gun shame you for not having a 10 MM.

[agtman]

Dude, it never surged, so how could it resurge?
And yes, it's all about sales volume.

Dude, do the research.

You're wrong on both points, and your tyro posts in this thread identify you as a caliber toolbot.

Focus, dude, this shizznitz ain't rocket science.

[NWPilgrim]

I don't know anyone who buys a 10mm SOLELY for the purpose of defense against other persons. As pointed out there are plenty of adequate loads in several calibers that fit in smaller platforms. I think the RE-surgence is due to more interest in the 10mm as an outdoor defense/hunting cartridge. That is where the factory ammo is hot loaded with hardcast, XTP and FMJFP bullets.

And there is no doubt the cartridge is growing in popularity as there are more and more 10mm pistols being released. Today there are many more brands and models of 10mm than there were 15 yrs ago.

It started off with a bang as a human self defense load mainly due to Jeff Cooper's endorsement and FBI INITIAL endorsement, aka S&W 1076. The release of the Glock 20 helped in the beginning. Then when everyone realized it was not practical at full loads for department use it got downloaded and then there was no reason for it over the same load in .40S&W. But due to multiple small ammo manufacturers developing hunting/bear loads with full pressure and hard bullets it slowly starting regaining some ground and then pistol mfgrs got on board. Today it is rising in popularity as more guys would prefer to carry a 10mm hot loaded into the woods than a heavier and bulkier M29 or Redhawk in .44Mag (whether right or wrong doesn't matter).

[sparkyv]

Originally Posted by reddog81

Most people like 10MM because it's the most powerful of the common auto-loader rounds. The people buying 10MM aren't concerned whether the recoil is more of a push or a shove. The Glock model 40 is arguably the most powerful handgun when you combine number of rounds with the power of the round.

If you want something cheap and easy to shoot 10MM isn't the round for you. If your an experienced pistol shooter and want something powerful but don't want to dive into boutique rounds the 10MM is a great option.

Another reason people like 10MM is because it's a versatile round with some loads only slightly more powerful than 40 S&W while some of the ammo out there is substantially more powerful

Great explanation. I could not have said it better.

[wild cat mccane]

So if anything, the history 10mm shows 9mm is it for personal defense.

Currently, there isn't a commercial bullet designed for hot 10mm FPS. The Gold Dot factory load works and works at .40 level FPS.

Speer "bonded" by BB, DT, and Underwood is older Gold Dot technology. So same results at the cost of having to go hotter.

Anything else (hard cast, FMJ, XTP) isn't ideal for personal defense but hunting--really questionable if anything needs it specifically too let alone the view that offer at hot loads too.

[agtman]

Anything else (hard cast, FMJ, XTP) isn't ideal for personal defense but hunting--really questionable if anything needs it specifically too let alone the view that offer at hot loads too.

Wrong on both points.

FMJ and hard cast boolits in various cartridges have been used for personal defense for well over a century. E.g., USGI 230gn .45acp ball ammo has been putting bad guys and enemy combatants down since WW1, and it still does today.

The 10mm was introduced in 1983; the .40 not until 1990. After the 1986 FBI shoot-out in Miami, the Bureau's policy mantra became "penetration first, last, and always." They then adopted the 10mm cartridge, and bullet-makers, like Hornady, responded with highly penetrative projectiles like the XTP. Federal introduced the first pistol ammo in 10mm with a bonded bullet, a 190gn JHP (loaded @ 1050fps from the 4.25" S&W 1076, which was the Bureau sidearm back then).

You need to actually know the history of the 10mm before spouting off.

Early 10mm.40-cal bullets, like Winchester's 175gn STHP at just shy of 1300fps, were introduced during the initial "full-power" era of 10mm ammo and were strictly intended to be defensive, anti-personnel rounds, like the XTP-HP. Any thought as to how such projectiles might fare in the fields and forests as a handgun "hunting" round came later and was a totally secondary use.

As Col. Jeff Cooper put it during the mid-'80s, the 10mm AUTO was "intended from the ground up" to be the premier "combat" pistol cartridge, the "heir apparent" to the .45acp, of which he had once been the Big Guru.