Too much flare

[cdoc42]

I planned on loading all my .38 Specials in brass cases and .357 in nickel to save trouble separating them for reloading.

So the other day I deprimed/resized/flared 175 nickel cases and set them aside for priming. As I was flaring the mouths, I used a Lyman die and I had a feeling the flare was a bit overzealous. But I continued to proceed, comforted by a recent thread on TFL that held a comment that much fewer problems have occurred with too much flare than with not enough. I just pictured that bulge from a less than vertical bullet entry into the case removed by the more predictable seat with the larger flare.

I loaded up 25 rounds and tried 5 in my Taurus revolver. Every one got stuck half way into the cylinder. I tried them in the Ruger GP 100 with the same result. The COL was right where it should be, the crimp was acceptable…..what’s the problem?

I extracted the bullet, dumped the powder; took the depriming pin out of the resizer die, and resized 5 cases. All fit. I made less of a flare, loaded the powder and bullet, and everything fits like a glove.

So obviously the excess flare was pushed toward the base of the case during the seating and crimping process.

Now I’m stuck with 150 cases, ready to be primed, with excess flare. Some will be overcome by resizing but the majority won’t even fit into the resizing die. About ½ dozen mouths were damaged enough in the process to be trashed. I do not have a die caliber slightly larger to at least reduce the flare diameter, so I used a pair of pliers and gently crimped the flare enough to have it removed in the resize die. But I’m going to do this to 150 cases????
My option is to trash them all and just skip the idea about nickel and brass case separation, and just start all over with the pile of .357 brass that I have.

Unless someone out there has a suggestion.

[tangolima]

Can't get into a sizing die? That's indeed over zealous. I wonder how you managed to seat the bullet and crimped.

Try closing up that flare with thin nose pliers, just enough for the sizing die to work. Or just run them through the seating die to crimp the mouth close. After sizing, flare moderately.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[mehavey]

Roll the case mouths between two metal plates.
That will iron out the flare without damage.

[BJung]

try laying the casings on a hard surface and sandwich the case between that something else that's hard and flat like a metal plate.. Maybe you can roll the flare in just enough so it will fit into the sizing die.

[cdoc42]

"Or just run them through the seating die to crimp the mouth close. After sizing, flare moderately.

That was the first thing I did, which worked in a small number of attempts, but in most cases the flare is so great that the force I need I fear will damage the die as much as if I dropped it on the floor, breaking the carbide.

I'm not able to get a clear picture of how to roll the case between two metal plates;what keeps the case rolling rather than just flattening out without having to manually turn the case?

I was looking for a resizer larger than .355 but my next inventory jump is .429...may I can use a .44 taper crimp die -?

The needle nose plier will provide less surface area contact than the standard plier, I'm afraid.

I now understand what happens when one gets older and begins to think like a teenager again.

[big al hunter]

You could get a Lee factory crimp die to run them all through. I haven't used one yet, but the concept seems to be what you need.

[jetinteriorguy]

Part of the reasoning behind a generous flare is because most people don’t trim pistol brass, and due to a lot of people shooting coated/plated bullets these days you need a fairly good flare to avoid stripping off any coating. This leads to some longer cases having too much flare so that shorter cases are adequate. One way around this problem is to use a Dillon seating die, I believe the mouth of this die is more tapered in order to work smoothly in a progressive press and as such will more readily accept a larger flare. I don’t have one of these dies to verify this but seems I read this somewhere in the past. I trim all straight wall revolver brass for both consistent flaring and crimping, but haven’t bothered with 9mm and with Lee dies haven’t had much problem handling a little extra flare, but it can be too much if your not careful. I suppose you could have a machinist modify a seating die to have a larger tapered mouth on an existing die, or possibly just do a ‘Bubba’ mod yourself somehow.

[buck460XVR]

Sounds like a good learning experience to me. Excess flare can overwork the brass causing premature mouth cracking. Excess flare also can lead to loss of neck tension which is most important for bullet retention. Flare just enough to get a bullet started. Flaring them so much they cannot be resized is excessive.

[cdoc42]

jetinteriorguy, your discussion rang a bell and I immediately moved from the laptop to the reloading room. The trim length on a .357 case is 1.280." I trimmed a few to 1.275" then deburred the mouth with my electric RBCS case prep tool. That removed enough of the flare to enable me to run them through the resizer.

I'm loading a 125gr JHP, seated at a COL of 1.590." I'll need to see if the crimp turns into the cannelure at that length. If not, I can seat them deep enough to get that crimp. Then I need to consider reducing the powder charge, but right now I'm 0.7gr under the Lyman max of 17.7gr of 2400.

Buck hit the nail on the head when he said it sounds like a good learning experience, and I hope everyone learned something. This is such a great forum for sharing experience and ideas. Thanks to all of you.

BTW, my brain fart idea of trying the .44 taper die was as bad as the smell. Hello! A .429 die is not going to squeeze a .395" (!!!) case mouth down....

[cdoc42]

I trimmed 100 cases to 1.275" and deburred the mouths. No need to resize.No need to trash them. Loaded them up today with no problem. It should be noted that some have the need for a rather forceful seating if you seat and crimp simultaneously, but it beats not being able to get the loaded round into the seat/ crimp stage at all.

Probably this ends this post. Thanks again to all participants.

[Nick_C_S]

You could get a Lee factory crimp die to run them all through.

Yeah, that would fix them. Obviously not the long term solution.

I flair generously. But not so much that they won't fit into the resize die

The common consensus is to flair just enough to allow the bullet to get started. I don't subscribe to such convention however. I flair more than that; enough to get the bullet started with ease. If loading my own is going to be a matter of frustration, I won't do it. So as far as I am concerned, a generous flair is a necessity. As far as it hardening the brass and causing case mouth cracks or whatever, it doesn't seem to matter from my experience.

[cdoc42]

Probably a large part of my problem trying to figure out what the best flare should be is that I don't trim my cases to the same length. Usually, if all cases, using the .357 as an example, are between 1.290" and 1.280" a larger flare on the 1.290" doesn't create a problem. It's the few cases that are below or above that range.

I never measure all resized handgun cases; I never had a reason, and most often, I've loaded .44 Mag until the primer pockets enlarge, then I toss them.

This time, like a dummy, I didn't MAKE a dummy to see if the flare would create a problem. That would have prevented this entire situation. But Thomas Edison said something like, "Don't call your errors mistakes; call them experiences never to be repeated again."

[gwpercle]

Wow ...That's learning a lesson the hard way !
Look around and see if you have a sizing die , caliber isn't important , that would allow you to remove some of the flare ...just enough to let the case enter your 38/357 sizing die .
Seems like I accidently over flared 3 cases once and used , I think , a 22-250 Die to remove some of the flair...I didn't push the case all the way into the the 22-250 die ...just far enough to remove enough flare to get the case into the 38/357 die .
Look through your stuff and see if you can find something .
Gary

[Shadow9mm]

so I am getting away from the bell flare, going towards the lyman m-die flare type. I found a company making inserts for the lee universal flare tool called NOE. heres is forum explination of use, its about $15 for the lee unicersal flare die, and $8 each for the inserts

http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php?topic=1795.0

[cdoc42]

gwpercle, good thought! I read your suggestion went right to the reloading room to try it out.

The.22-250 resizer die won't do it. The .357 case fits all the way in but isn't long enough to do anything. The flare measured 0.401" on entry and removal.

BUT- a 6mm PPC resize die did the trick! I was concerned that I might end up with a stuck case, so I gingerly inserted it until I felt resistance, then advanced just a bit. The flare came out but was converted to a rolled crimp. AllI need to do is find that "sweet spot" short of a crimp curl. Great idea!

[Unclenick]

When you crimp a really wide flare, you have to bend the brass so much that it leverages the side of the case outward, as shown in the third place, below. There's no need for it. Use the Lyman M type expander. Don't add any flare at all. Just the step at first. Check bullet fit first. If they don't fit into the step, you have a bullet sizing issue and you should consider a Lee bullet sizer if you don't have a sizer-lubricator already. Once your bullets fit the step, then add just a bare smidgen of a flare to ensure the edge of the case mouth can't scrape material off your bullet.

One of the pluses to not over-flaring is longer brass life before mouth splits start happening.

[cdoc42]

Unclenick, thanks. I get the impression one can measure the presence of the bulge on the over-crimped cartridge, is that correct?

While I'm at it, how can you tell when a taper crimp is adequate to avoid setback discussed earlier?

[mehavey]

Shove assembled bullet -- nose first -- firmly against your loading bench.
The bullet shouldn't move....

As far as set back...
Revolvers don't set back.
Revolvers tend the walk the bullet out of the case upon recoil.

As far as how much taper crimp...?
You roll crimp the 38 Special/357Mag family.

Ain't this hobby fun ???

[cdoc42]

mehavey, when I said, "While I'm at it..." I should have been more clear. I was "jumping the gun," so to speak, by switching from a rolled crimp in revolvers to a tapered crimp in pistols.

Thanks for the tip regarding taper crimp adequacy. I suspect one should measure the COL before and after that procedure to detect any subtle signs of inadequate crimp, no?

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by cdoc42

I'm loading a 125gr JHP, seated at a COL of 1.590." I'll need to see if the crimp turns into the cannelure at that length. If not, I can seat them deep enough to get that crimp.

COAL is not that critical in a revolver. You adjust your dies to crimp in the middle of the cannelure...period. It does certainly help if all cases are the same length, so trimming is a good option.

[Unclenick]

Cdoc42,

Yes, you can measure the bulge over the bullet. Do it in two or three places after seating but before crimping, and then again after crimping to see what has changed.

[Shadow9mm]

So, I just got my Lyman M-die. Absolutely flipping amazing, bullets seat great, minimal bell.

[cdoc42]

"Cdoc42,

Yes, you can measure the bulge over the bullet. Do it in two or three places after seating but before crimping, and then again after crimping to see what has changed."

Yep, I did it today, buried in my reloading workshop by Covid-19 boredom. Pre-seat case size, 0.357". Post seat, where the bottom of the bullet appears to be, 0.359." I suspect a larger reading would be commensurate with the inability to chamber the round.

It was really funny, actually. I had resized 50 cases of .45 Colt and began flaring with a setting I knew to be effective. One was particularly difficult, but not impossible. It happened to be a .454 Casull that had mixed in with the.45's. I wish I knew how to show you the picture. It looked like a feakin' mushroom.

[Unclenick]

Occasionally we make the inadvertent invention. A few years ago, I set an old press up temporarily on my bench with a carbide 45 sizing die in place that I remembered leaving in it. I ran a 45 case into it, and upon withdrawal, discovered I had created the 44-45 Auto. I had misremembered. It was a 44 Mag/Special die that was in the press. Too lazy to slip my glasses on and confirm the memory, I suppose.