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Old July 17, 2018, 12:30 PM   #1
Bucksnort1
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223 Case Gauge

I have a Lyman 223 case gauge. After resizing, I check each case in the gauge. The case will drop but not completely. Each case protrudes above the gauge about the thickness of the rim, sometimes less. I checked some Winchester factory ammunition, which does the same thing.

I don't think this is a problem because my reloads chamber well in a bolt action 223 but, I'm just curious about this.
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Old July 17, 2018, 01:00 PM   #2
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Does it protrude past the very end of the gauge or just past the recessed channel on the end of the gauge? Got a pic of it?

Last edited by higgite; July 17, 2018 at 01:25 PM.
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Old July 17, 2018, 01:13 PM   #3
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"...my reloads chamber well..." That's all that matters. The chamber is the very best gauge. Rule Number One. It works. Don't fix it.
Mind you, bolt actions are more forgiving than any other action. The camming action is far stronger than other types.
However, if the sizer die(assuming it's an FL die) isn't set up right, it's not sizing the whole case.
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Old July 17, 2018, 02:47 PM   #4
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Bucksnort1,

If it were just your resized cases doing this, I would suggest the extractor on your gun is bending and/or burring the rim a little. But if brand new, never-fired Winchester cases won't drop in. that's a pretty good sign the gauge has a problem the factory should look at.
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Old July 17, 2018, 02:50 PM   #5
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223 case gauge???

Whats that??? Lol
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Old July 17, 2018, 03:18 PM   #6
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Same as any chamber gage, it is something used to set up your sizing die when you don't know what gun the cases may have to feed in. Good for owners of several guns chambered for the same cartridge. Otherwise, as mentioned, your gun's chamber is the best gauge. It can, however, be a bit inconvenient to manipulate the rifle at the loading bench, so a number of fellows take barrel blank ends or sometimes the chamber end of an old barrel cut back and finish chambered with the same reamer they used to cut the chamber in their rifle. This is a customized gage for the same gun, and the high step is made at the actual headspace of the chamber.
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Old July 17, 2018, 04:24 PM   #7
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Are you full or neck sizing your brass ?
What type of action , make and model ?
Im using the Lyman case gauge for pistol 45acp , have one for 308 but haven't used it in awhile .
Would like to know how your sizing your brass first .
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Old July 17, 2018, 08:05 PM   #8
mgulino
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I use the same case gauge. After full-length sizing, my cases will drop right in and I can check for length. Once fired cases from my rifle, after neck-sizing only, will not fit in the case gauge; however, they will chamber fine in my rifle.
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Old July 17, 2018, 08:17 PM   #9
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If you followed the post, new factory ammo won't fit, so it's not his resizing method. Really seems like the gage isn't made correctly.
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Old July 17, 2018, 11:00 PM   #10
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The gun is a Savage .223 bolt action.

I full length resize with RCBS die.

T. O'Heir, I agree. If they chamber ok then all is ok.

Higgite, it protrudes slightly into the machined channel.

I will contact Lyman to see what they want me to do.
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Old July 18, 2018, 12:47 AM   #11
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Buck, if it protrudes slightly into the machined groove but still below the flat end of the gauge, that's right in the good to go zone. If the flat base of the case is between flush with the bottom of the groove and flush with the top of the groove, it should fit any standard SAAMI 223 Rem chamber. If you can drag a straight edge across the end of the gauge without snagging the case, the case is not too long.

Last edited by higgite; July 18, 2018 at 01:35 AM.
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Old July 18, 2018, 11:47 AM   #12
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higgite,

I cannot drag a straight edge across the gauge without snagging the head. I also checked some PMC cartridges. They are similar to the Winchester in that you cannot snag the case head. I will test some sized cases without powder or bullets in my rifle. I just don't recall having problems with any of my reloads not chambering.
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Old July 18, 2018, 12:07 PM   #13
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I contacted Lyman. They are sending a new gauge.
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Old July 18, 2018, 03:08 PM   #14
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If the store bought rounds are doing the same thing , I for some reason went over that part . Agree there's something wrong with the gage . Must have been made on a Monday. Let us know how it goes with the new gage . Look into the RCBS Precision Mic great tool to check headspace an ogive measurements .

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Old July 18, 2018, 03:34 PM   #15
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Case gauges are minimal SAAMI dimensions and only "tight" or undersize ammo will really fit.

FWIW; I gave up on case gauges long ago; one time I chased my tail for a month trying to find why my 30-06 Garand reloads wouldn't fit my gauge. I tried die adjustments, double checked case length, burrs, dings or bulges. The case looked good with a close visual inspection. I also tried new dies, RCBS, and same result, about .010"-,015" above the max step on the gauge. I asked around and an old Garand shooter/reloader asked "do they chamber?". They did, and shot well. Later upon examination, (further searching for why) I discovered the case was hitting the OP rod on it's way out and dinging the rim .010". I had similar problems with my semi-autos and shelved the gauge and just plunk test my ammo...
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Old July 18, 2018, 04:56 PM   #16
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The gauge should not be tighter in diameter than SAAMI standard minimum chamber numbers. The whole point of those standards is cross-compatibility of ammunition with chambers made for it. Fired .223 and 5.56 cases not fitting would be no surprise, as there are now a number of .223 chamber designs (NATO and Wylde, for example) that are wider at the back end than the SAAMI standard chamber. This is mainly in order to have extra-good feed reliability, but that increased reliability only happens if the cartridge cases being fed into those chambers are within the standard case diameters. Neither Winchester nor any other new ammunition manufacturer will be making extra wide ammunition for them, as that defeats the purpose of the chamber's extra width and spoils compatibility with standard chambers into the bargain. So that new commercial cartridge not fitting into the gauge was the coroner's verdict on it for me. Something is wrong with the gauge or is stuck down inside it.

I hope the OP will let us know if the factory tells him what it was, but they will probably just do what he said, and send another.
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Old July 19, 2018, 07:41 PM   #17
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I recently purchased a Sheridan slotted case gauge in 223 and 308. In addition to the length and width measures at the ends, I can also see how the case mouth and bullet fits into the throat. Of course loaded ammo fits perfectly. Now, if only my guns all had that same chamber! I know one does, and one will take longer.
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Old July 19, 2018, 08:22 PM   #18
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The case gage: The case gage has been with us from 1938 +/- a few years. I would thin it would be a rather simple gage. For me it does not get easier to use because it started out as a datum based tool. I have a choice, purchase datum based tools or make my own datums.

When I make a datum I start with zero, when I use the case gage I have another choice; I can verify the case gage or measure the length of the case from my datum to the case head to get the case length from the datum/shoulder to the case head. Most reloaders have case head space.

In the beginning reloaders thought the case gage was a drop-on gage; they did not measure before and again after, they did not consider the accuracy of the case gage and they failed to take the instructions seriously. From the beginning Wilson suggested the reloader use a straight edge; that was back when most reloaders had shop skills and carried a metal pocket rule. Wilson suggested using the pocket rule as a straight edge. For me it was a simple short step to go from a straight to adding a feeler.


I would suggest the reloader measure the length of the case form from the datum/shoulder to the case head before firing and again after firing.

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Old July 19, 2018, 08:29 PM   #19
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Quote:
The gauge should not be tighter in diameter than SAAMI standard minimum chamber numbers.
Again; the case gage measures the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head before firing and is used to measure the same case after firing.

There is another length to be measured but reloaders are so infatuated with the case having head space they forget the case gage is also used to measure the distance from the datum forward to the end of the neck. That information is helpful when determining case stretch, well... it helps me but my cases do not have case head space and I have no trouble determining what happens to the shoulder when the case is fired and or sized.

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; July 20, 2018 at 08:51 AM. Reason: errase 4
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Old July 20, 2018, 11:30 AM   #20
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That's a good point. If the diameter of your gauge permits it, drop a fired case in to see where the neck and rim land, knowing that fits in your chamber and not just what SAAMI standards want it to be. Resize the case and check the neck position again to see how much it grew during resizing and whether or not it needs trimming.
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Old July 20, 2018, 11:06 PM   #21
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I'll throw another cow chip in the fire...
Which case gauge?
Datum length gauge or profile gauge?

I'm with Mr. Guffy on this one.
No one I know uses a Datum line gauge correctly, all of them use it as a drop in quick check.
When you try to explain how a case gauge is supposed to work, their eyes roll or glaze over.

I agree the gauge seems screwed in this case.
No one suggested brushing for crud or checking the gauge for rust, etc.
Shows case gauge illiteracy all the way around...
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Old July 21, 2018, 07:00 AM   #22
F. Guffey
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Quote:
No one I know uses a Datum line gauge correctly, all of them use it as a drop in quick check.
When you try to explain how a case gauge is supposed to work, their eyes roll or glaze over.
There is no excuse for not understanding 'the datum'; I make datums, I also collect datums and when I can sneak up on someone I have purchased datums by the box full.

There is the datum, and then there are datum refinements, that is something we will never get around to discussing because of the glazed over rolled back eyes.

Chamber casting? Same thing.

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Old July 21, 2018, 07:02 AM   #23
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Quote:
No one suggested brushing for crud or checking the gauge for rust, etc.
I clean my dies with a towel on a dowel; I prefer a white towel.

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Old July 21, 2018, 10:50 AM   #24
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I use a NYLON brush & lint free towel piece.
It's the same with a Datum line adapter, when you try and explain the difference between 'Relative' & absloute measurements.

It's like the idea of an ACCURATE measurement is something dirty or 0.015" off is 'Close Enough'.
Endless arguments arguing AGAINST measuring standards so you know you have an accurate measurement tool, arguments FOR Harbor Freight calipers instead of something accurate, using a Datum length gauge for Datum length measurements, a profile gauge for profile inspection...

Might as well use a $2 tape measure if you don't think your caliper/micrometer needs to be checked with standards, or don't think it needs to be accurate.

When the idea of a straight edge escapes them, it's trying to teach a pig to sing, a waste of time & effort.

I get it that some guys just want the brass to fit back into the chamber...
If that's the case, why own a gauge at all when they have the chamber right there... It's the 'Last Word' inspection to end all inspections.

The ONLY circumstance when the chamber isn't the last word,
--- When you are bending brass for multiple rifles ----

Then you have an obligation to return brass to as close to SAAMI as possible.
(Or if the chamber is wildcat, as close to the designed size as possible, a disclaimer for the nit-pickers on the forum)

The idea that military cases/ammo is 'Undersize' is simply false.
I've purchased several hundred thousand surplus (unfired) military cases and they are MUCH close to 'Ideal' specified size (7.62 NATO, 5.56 NATO, etc).
MUCH closer to ideal specified than the best civilian brass.

There *Might* be some WWII or foreign made brass (specifically communist block made brass) that is far from ideal specifications, but US made military contract made brass is spot on.
The inspection process is far beyond what ANY home reloader will ever be able to measure since they aren't going to section brass for inspection or order an alloy composition breakdown, etc.

I applaud the guys with gauges, and accurate measuring tools, particularly if they have standards for QC qualification.
I just wish they would take an hour to learn how to use the tool correctly...
(The 'Idiots Guide To..', from GAUGE MAKERS, are on YouTube if you don't like reading instructions)
Figure out what's happening to the brass during firing, so they know what needs to be corrected, and what to leave alone.

I'm always amazed how people can write with complete authority on this subject, while passing along completely false, or even idiotic information...

FACTS:
You NEED a quality, accurate measuring tool, caliper or micrometer.
You NEED standards, while you can set the 'Zero', without accurate standards you have no idea what the measuring tool is doing over it's range of measurement.

Clamping on a 'Dime' or a feeler gauge leaf IS NOT a 'Standard', the measuring device is more accurate than the thickness of a 'Dime', and a dime or feeler gauge IS NOT long enough to test range of scale.

A 'Harbor Freight' or any other $10-$20 caliper is 'Thickness of Thumbnail' accuracy, might as well use a tape measure.
Without standards, not even proven to be that accurate.

Doesn't matter how much you write as an 'Authority' on the subject, these are the FACTS.
ANY machinist (not brake rotor mechanic) will tell you exactly the same thing.
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Old July 21, 2018, 01:16 PM   #25
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I've grown lazy. Dies, gauges, even some gun parts, I leave soaking in a beaker full of naphtha overnight. The next day I suspend the beaker in the heated ultrasonic for awhile. Pretty much everything falls to the bottom of the beaker or dissolves in the solvent.
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