Federal case reload 308 hard to close bolt

[LineStretcher]

Originally Posted by Jsnake711

I don't understand what you mean about head space gauge, and lee says 3 turns. Can yout explain?

T oheir, are you saying I should pull them and start over?

Well, you've received a lot of advice. So let me ask, do you own any case gauges at all or are you just winging it. Not a good plan if you are. If you're counting on used brass (I hesitate to call it once fired) to be properly sized then as you are finding out, that's a hit and miss situation.

That said, go get yourself a .308 case gauge, read the instructions for using it and then read the instructions for setting up your sizing die. If you don't have a sizing die then get one. Even if you buy new brass you should full length size it for the first firing. Even top quality brass makers like Lapua recommend a full length resize to begin with.

As a side note, head space does not vary between bolt guns and semi auto. If that was the case there would be separate ammunition for each and there isn't. Proper head space should be between .002 and .004 thousandths with .005 being a no go unless you are checking a military rifle and that case .008 is your no go and you use a field gauge.

When I set up my precision dies, I start with the sizing die setup about 2 turns from the ram with a proper shell holder installed. I use precision shell holders that are in .002 height differences. I remove the ejector from my bolt and then I check the case for fit. I raise the case fully and then lower the die until it touches the shoulder then I lower the case and add 1/8 turn then tighten the lock ring. I size the case and then check it in the gauge and finally test it. If the bolt handle drops freely and the gauge shows it to be within spec's then I'm good. If the bolt handle does not drop freely I either go 1/16 turn on the die or change to the next taller (.002,004,etc.) shell plate holder and resize again. If the case is within spec according to the gauge, I try it in the rifle again. I repeat this process until the bolt closes freely and the case is still within min/max headspace according to the gauge.

If at any point I cannot get headspace correct and still be within specs according to the gauge, I discard that brass permanently. I hit the neck with a hammer so I never try to use it again and put it in the recycle box.

[reynolds357]

There are plenty of ways to go about sizing brass. I have never found a case gauge to be very useful in loading for a particular rifle. The only way it would really tell you anything is if it were cut with the same reamer that cut your chamber. Why would you really care what a generic gauge says when tuning for a particular chamber? I have cut a few to go with my barrels, but I rarely ever use them.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Two ways to resolve that I know of.
Anneal em to their shoulder & resize FL. Then trim length to Minimum suggested or __Just Small Base resize so's to eliminate fat brass.

I reload & shoot nothing but some others first fires. Belonging to a gun club I retrieve only first fires for my personal use.

Again. All my rifle cartridges having Small Base resizer die availability from manufactures are resized with such tooling. 243_270_25-06_300 Sav_ 30-06.
S/B resized always gives the shooter the feel of cambering a new store bought cartridge. I prefer that store bought functioning VS having to force a fat cartridge into battery or lock-down.

BTW: A shooter should never have to force a cartridge into battery in order to get it to fire. Never >ever!

[HiBC]

There are plenty of ways to go about sizing brass. I have never found a case gauge to be very useful in loading for a particular rifle. The only way it would really tell you anything is if it were cut with the same reamer that cut your chamber. Why would you really care what a generic gauge says when tuning for a particular chamber? I have cut a few to go with my barrels, but I rarely ever use them.

Reynolds,we are not talking about a "plunk" gauge.There is absolutely no need to use the chambering reamer to make the bushing gauge. Nothing personal,but generally folks who give negative feedback for the bushing gauge don't understand what they do or do not do.First,they are not intended to hae a line to line diametrical fit.They are not for checking diameters or concentricity.


They perform xactly the same function as the Hornady "clamp to your calipers" datum bushing kit. They perform exactly the same function as the RCBS Precision mic. The hole has a simulated headspace datum diameter,it has a hole to hold the case normal to that reference datum,and the ground step gives SAAMI hi and low limits for datum to case head lengths.If you just want to make SAAMI spec reloads,keep it between the steps.If you want a specific head clearance ,the SAAMI datum reference diameter is a constant.

If you determine your sizing die is setting the shoulder back .004 for your AR-10 from brass fired in that rifle* ,and IF you verify that translates to .004 head clearanceYou may then establish that brass head sits .003 (any number that is true) below the top of the gauge. From that point on,you can use that gauge to check Lapua,Remington,Lake city,etc. It does not matter. Set your resize die to give you that same measurement in the gauge after sizing. Measurable,repeatable,consistant resizing. Why do we handload?

( * It is not necessarily true that fired brass from a semi auto rifle is an honest representation of zero head clearance chamber length brass.The brass CAN stretch longer due to residual pressure or other cycling factors.Setting the shoulder back .004 on brass fired in your rifle may not result in .004 head clearance)



From the max length of the bushing gauge,another constant,the handloader can repeat his die set up,and his case head to ref datum length,consitantly,every time for years. You cam measure with calipers over the case in the gage to a ref number you write with a sharpy in your die box. Like" - .003" I have a granite comparator stand with a post and a dial indicator. I zero the indicator on the hi limit end of the bushing gauge. Then I drop a brass in the gauge,and slide the case head under the indicator.I can check several samples to .0005 very efficiently. Another tool that would work just fne with a bushing gauge is a depth mic Simply mic from the hi limit to the case head.

The fact that a person has not yet developed the skills to se a tool is no reflection on the merit of the tool

You can give me a Stradivarius and I still cannot play a violin

I do know abut gauges and measuring tools,and inspecting parts.

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[QUOTE][/As a side note, head space does not vary between bolt guns and semi auto. If that was the case there would be separate ammunition for each and there isn't. Proper head space should be between .002 and .004 thousandths with .005 being a no go unless you are checking a military rifle and that case .008 is your no go and you use a field gauge.QUOTE]

Linestretcher,
It seems you may be talking about headspace (rifle) specs referring to a head clearance (ammunition) suggestion I made.
This is the book I referred to.I'm not sure where my copy is.

https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Sho.../dp/1931220123

If you look in the description,you will see they have a chapter for loading gas gun match ammo,and one for loading bolt gun ammo.I'm working from memory.I might get the exact head clearance wrong. As I recall,they suggested .002 for bolt guns.

For gas guns,they were emphatic.Sufficient head clearance for full battery lockup EVERY TIME MUST be provided. As I recall,it was .004 for AR type rifles and .006 for M-1,and M-1A/M-14 type rifles.

I understand,thats not ideal for brass life. I might vaguely recall something about a recommendation of a max of 4 reloads.,but I'm not sure.

You may disagree,thats OK,but I'll give my credibility to the authors of this book and Precision Shooting Magazine.

[F. Guffey]

There are plenty of ways to go about sizing brass. I have never found a case gauge to be very useful in loading for a particular rifle. The only way it would really tell you anything is if it were cut with the same reamer that cut your chamber. Why would you really care what a generic gauge says when tuning for a particular chamber? I have cut a few to go with my barrels, but I rarely ever use them.

https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-...-the-elephant/

Why would you really care what a generic gauge says when tuning for a particular chamber?

The Wilson case gage is a datum based tool; the Wilson case gage is not a drop in gage. The Wilson case gage measures the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. The Wilson case gage measure the length of the case in two lengths, the short length determines minimum length or full length sized from the shoulder/datum to the case head. The long length measures the go-gage length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head.

For 70 years Wilson has suggested the reloader use a straight edge when measuring the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head. Problem; when and if the reloader reads the instructions they claim the case gage is a drop in gage

The Wilson case gage is designed to measure new over the counter factory cases, fired and sized cases meaning the gage was designed to measure the length of the case before and again after sizing.

Back to the straight edge; I use a straight edge be it a feeler gage and or a flat surface and I use a feeler gage.

And I make chamber gages, the chamber gage differs from the case gage. The Wilson case gage measures minimum length/full length sized case length and fired case length from the datum to the casa head. The chamber gage measures sized/minimum length cases.

The chamber gage is as confusing to use by the reloader as the Wilson case gage. Reloader do not know what to do with the gage's open end. I do not find the chamber gage confusing because I make them. The datum/shoulder determines where the case contacts the gage meaning that is where the length of the case is measure from. The measure 'to' is the open end.

And then there is the thumb nail; I do not use my thumb nail when measuring the length of the case from the datum to the open end of the gage. I use a straight edge and feeler gage, or a flat surface or a depth gage fashioned with a dial indicator. Wilson makes the dial indicator and case gage.

F. Guffey

[RC20]

Bushing cartridge headspace gauge

We are talking about the Hornady comparator type here?

[RC20]

The Wilson case gauge I got in 9mm is useless. Of all the brass mfg I have sized (must be 10 or more) it only works on one.

The rest it says are reject (by a lot) but the gun is perfectly happy with them (by pulling the barrel and ensuring that they seat all the way of course)

Obvious its bored to minimum not even average specs.

As its not real world its a waste. Caveat Emproer

[F. Guffey]

We are talking about the Hornady comparator type here?

You will not believe how many years it took reloaders to understand the Sinclair/Hornady comparator was not a head space gage. It took as many years to convince reloaders how important it was to have an accurate datum. And then there was the verify thing. And then there was case head space

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

The Wilson case gauge I got in 9mm is useless.

I suggest you contact Wilson and complain; there is a chance they will send you another one or give you your money back and then there is a big chance all you need for your gage is the instructions.

I have know very few reloaders that have read the instructions that are included in the case gage box. The printed date on my instructions for the Wilson case gage go back to 1952.

My instructions suggest getting a straight edge. Wilson included a description of a straight edge. They did not mention 'the feeler gage' I always wondered how long would it take the reloader to think of the feeler gage. I believe I started out with a feeler gage and then combined it with the shell holder, die and gages.

F. Guffey

[LineStretcher]

HiBC, you are correct. The thing most new reloaders don't do is to check their AR's head space with the ejector removed from the bolt. They drop the bolt and when it doesn't lock without added pressure they think that they don't have enough head space so they bump the shoulders back further resulting in way too much headspace.

All my rifles feel a little different whether it be a bolt gun or a semi auto so I still pull the ejectors when I'm setting headspace. Between my feel and my gauges I have good confidence that I'm in the sweet spot.

My buddy and I both reload (we're neighbors). He's the kind of reloader that racks out 100 rounds of .308 on his Dillon 650 in an hour and I'm the kind that takes 3 day's to rack out 50 rounds on my RCBS Ammo Master. I use my Dillon 650 much the same as he does but I don't consider it's ammo to be match grade and I don't see the point in reloading ammo for a match grade rifle that only meets plinking specs. We're both in our happy places when we go shooting so that's all that matters, right?

The OP has plenty of info to digest now and I think by now he's realizing he needs to take a much closer look at the importance of using proper reloading methods. I'm going to refrain from further advice at this point and wait to see if he posts some results.

[Jsnake711]

Wow so much info. Just to clarify, I didn't size this brass. Although, the way I have been setting my sizing die by the directions was, ram all the way up, screw die in till it touches the shell holder and lock it down.

Next batch I resize I will definitely try this. Also these loads were fire a bolt gun. I did try them in thr ar 10 and the bolt closed with ease and extracted with ease.

And I will look at getting a case gauge as I don't have one, ands primarily load 308.

[HiBC]

The Wilson case gauge I got in 9mm is useless. Of all the brass mfg I have sized (must be 10 or more) it only works on one.

RC.: For the example you gave,9mm,I'd have to agree a bushing type headspace gauge is unnecessary. Its function is to gage high and low limit from case head to the headspacing datum feature,which is the case mouth.

Your calipers will do quite nicely. I'm not sure what you were expecting from the gauge.

Its a bit different with a bottleneck rimless rifle cartridge that headspaces on the shouder. The measurement is from the case head to a theoretical datum circle diameter resting on the case shoulder.

That's not as easy as the 9mm. The bushing die provides a simulated datum circle for the shoulder to rest on,and a high and low limit.

I find them quite useful.

Other methods that work are the Hornady/Stony point tool that attaches a bushing to a caliper jaw. The RCBS Precision mic is another fine tool that makes the same measurement.

Unclenick has described using a hardware store bushing for a circle to rest the cartridge shoulder on .With the calipers you can measure the change in length before and after sizing.

They all work. They will all make a "before sizing" and "After sizing" measurement .And they can all make a comparative measurement from a case compared to a master.

Which beats "It don't fit ,give it another quarter turn"


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Isnake 711: This link will take you to Brownells,and the Wilson case gauge. There is a similar Lyman on sale now for a little cheaper.

https://www.brownells.com/reloading/...prod33287.aspx

[reynolds357]

Reynolds,we are not talking about a "plunk" gauge.There is absolutely no need to use the chambering reamer to make the bushing gauge. Nothing personal,but generally folks who give negative feedback for the bushing gauge don't understand what they do or do not do.First,they are not intended to hae a line to line diametrical fit.They are not for checking diameters or concentricity

If we are talking about the same tool, I know how to use them. Very simple to use. Also, pretty pointless in my opinion. They are not completely accurate unless they perfectly match the chamber. The only way that can happen is if cut with the same reamer. I built a couple for my 30br when I built it and it's 3 spare barrels. I built one for my 6ppc before I turned it into a 6Br Norma.

[HiBC]

The bushing cartridge gauge can be made perfectly well with a bored through hole the diameter of the SAAMI spec headspacing datum

Then a straight,non tapered counterbore,slip fit for the case head diameter,can be bored to the SAAMI spec max case head to datum depth.

All that is left is grinding in the low limit step. The only thing the gauge needs to do is rest the case shoulder on the datum diameter normal to the datum.. All other contact between the gauge is noise which may induce error.

Yes,the gauge is pretty simple and foolproof to use,if its properly designed.If the gauge tries to do more than it was designed to do,you have multiple variables in the result.

My career as a toolmaker included designing and building gauges to qualify military and aircraft parts to the GD+T specs on the print.

Nothing personal,but if you think the gauge needs to be a line to line fit with the body of the cartridge case,you don't really understand how the gauge works. Unclenick's hardware store bushing used with calipers has no chamber. The RCBS Precision mic has no chamber cut with "the" reamer.

Any of these methods might be used by a world class competition shooter.They work.

A quarter million dollar Co-ordinate Measuring Machine in a clean room has no chamber cut .It will use a contact point to touch the cartridge case on the datum locations only.


This gauge https://www.brownells.com/reloading/...prod33287.aspx

[reynolds357]

If you use the generic gauge, you may not actually measure the contact point that creates headspace. I am sure you have reamed barrels. I am sure you know the amount of error in most reamers. My point is you are measuring a spot that might not be "the spot". In a perfect world, the generic gauge works. In real world, it may or may not be accurate.

[HiBC]

I generally use PTG or Elliot reamers and I'd say their work is done to a very high degree of precision,I also would say if a chamber that I cut with a sharp,quality reamer showed variation in size or form the problem is likely my technique. All that is beside the point.

You are happy with your system.Enjoy.

I still say by definition,the measurement is from the case head to the datum feature.The chamber walls are not part of the equation.

The only reason I'm arguing the point is for some reason folks dismiss the bushing gauge. You may prefer your tool,and it works for you.

The datum circle is key to the definition of the headspace measurement.

The criteria is resting the shoulder on that datum simulation. From there,the only influence on the cartridge case should be the means to hold the case normal(perpendicular) to the datum circle. The only other surface needed is the top of the gauge for hi/lo limits.

If your case is not of perfect roundness and concentricity,your chamber walls will provide interference and not permit the shoulder to seat on the datum circle.
We are splitting hairs to an unnecessary degree.Any of the tools will allow a known amount of change.Any of the tools beats poke and hope. And any of the tools can be used to make ammo good enough for David Tubbs.The rest is about a lively beer discussion.

The last time I checked,the topic of this thread was about some ammo that would not chamber for a new handloader. I don't know your motive for contributing,but mine is to help the guy out.

Are you seriously suggesting that to solve his problem and make good ammo he needs to rebarrel his rifle and cut a gauge with the chambering reamer? If you are not,what is the point?

The guage I suggested,or a similar one will cost between $20 and $ 30.Its useful as is,no adjustments.

An RCBS Precision mic costs about twice that,its slower and a bit more to understand.Its still a perfectly good tool.

The Hornady/Stony Point setup is probably about the price of a bushing.
There is some variability and setup clamping the assembly together on the caliper,but its a good,versatile,economical tool that does the job.

Unclenicks hardware store bushing is under $5 and only requires an understanding of the job to do,and some dexterity in holding the bushing,the case,and the calipers. FWIW,the Hornady replacement datum bushings are SAAMI sized and can be used the same way.All will do the job just fine.

I have owned the Hornady/Stony Point system.I have used the RCBS Precision mic. I have decided ,to have on my bench for years to come,dollar for dollar,the bushing gauge is my first choice

It will be a good ,useful tool for the OP.

[RC20]

You will not believe how many years it took reloaders to understand the Sinclair/Hornady comparator was not a head space gage.

I think it makes a pretty good one. Close enough for me!

[F. Guffey]

I don't understand what you mean about head space gauge, and lee says 3 turns. Can you explain?

Jsnake, head space gage is like checking the stock market, the definition of the tool changes everyday. We had this reloader that came through selling a digital head space gage that was a dial indicator stand. Most of the members swooned over the tool without knowing the case does not have head space. And there was the invention of the three legged chair

The 3 legged chair goes all the way back to dirt floors and milk stools.

F. Guffey

[RC20]

Your calipers will do quite nicely. I'm not sure what you were expecting from the gauge.

9mm is a bit of a picky cartridge to load, it has taper and I was just getting back into reloading and though it was an interesting recommendation.

Previously my reloading was hunting related (though a lot of effort when in the end I just wound up buying store ammo when I was out one trip I had no time to reload for)

I did a lot of 44 and 41 magnum in the 70s. Those were straight wall of course and in revolvers.

Lets just say the last 5 years has been an accelerated course in reloading and people making recommendations that are just nattering.

It was clear that with one mfg fitting and the others not, the ideal was silly and what counted was did those rounds fit in my chamber of my semi auto?

Being a rubber meets the road sort of mechanic, that was good enough for me.

So, it was a learning experience, didn't cost that much and opened up the brain to consider what the reality was in chambers.

I like Model of 1917 30 caliber rifles, those chambers are quite interesting. Head space is a pretty loose term. But then they were battle rifles and no one cared about reloading them back then.

The lesson is those are best loaded with their own dedicated rounds. I can run the same dedicated rounds in all of them so that works fine. Its not they don't have head space, its they have a really long one (SAMI not being in existence then nor did the military care - reliably shooting the military spec ammo was all that counted.

My 1911 7.5 is the same way. Yes you can mash a round from a K31 or my 7.5 build gun into it, but they are not happy.

What dimensions is going whacky that makes that so I really don't care. It is, I just run segregated rounds in that gun.

Now my take on this is not necessarily work for anyone else. But despite my divergence, I can shoot 1/2 MOA and under regularly and it makes me happy.

Mr. G hate my use of terms but it gets the point across and that is more important than i doted or a T crossed (or so I think) - can you reload safely, do you have the general right mental picture. I am not building a fuel injection system where the tolerance are down to .0001.

[F. Guffey]

I like Model of 1917 30 caliber rifles, those chambers are quite interesting. Head space is a pretty loose term. But then they were battle rifles and no one cared about reloading them back then.

Nothing has changed; the die and press had threads, back to "nothing has changed" modern presses and dies have threads.

F. Guffey

[HiBC]

RC-20:

I think it was Lao Tzu who suggested being like water. Flow around obstacles and gather in low places.

There are many factors I just cannot change.People are one of them.That is as it should be,IMO. To make up for it,I have the power to make choices.

If I want worms to go fishing,I have learned over time that rock hard dry caliche is difficult digging and yields few,if any,worms..I'm free to dig elsewhere,and if my purpose is to go fishing,I'm wasting my time and effort chipping a rock hard dry sand/clay soil.
Somes spots require way to much effort for little to no reward.

There is peaceful serenity in passing them by.

I can observe a hog standing in a mudhole without getting the urge to wrestle it.I'd just get all muddy,and the hog might enjoy it.

We all get to make choices about where to dig,for worms,or gold.Or just wearing out the shovel.

[F. Guffey]

I quit reading and replying to Guffey.Let me guess,he told you its not possible to set the shoulder back.Whatever.The shoulder will stop at the shoulder in the die.It will hold very still there.You will actually move the case head closer to the shoulder.Unless you have a press where the die moves. Semantics can be all important,worthy of endless argument.I think that is the little secret he delights in playing with..I can't say for sure,because then he does not say.or he would no longer be the "only reloader" who knows.

Who knows? It is obvious to me you do not know; you are your worst enemy. There is nothing I can do about your anger, I do not know what you are afraid of. Are you afraid of not knowing? You insist you can move the shoulder back, you insist you can bump the shoulder back.

I say it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support. Again, you insist you can and I am wrong. I can shorten the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head, again I insist I can not shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head by moving the shoulder back. And I understand how cool it sounds when a reloader insist he can bump the shoulder back. If it was possible to move/bump the shoulder back when sizing a case it seems at least one reloadser/member out of 6 reloading forums could explain how it is possible.

If you can not do it just say so. I can not move the shoulder on a case back with a die that has case body support. I can not bump the shoulder back; remember I am the reloader that has bump presses and non bump presses. I am one of the few reloaders that understand my non cam over presses do not bump. For a press to bump it has to be a cam over press and here you are, "I bump" and I ask 'How do you do that?'

F. Guffey

[std7mag]

MrGuffey,

Per my previous post.
If i'm understanding you correctly.
Due to the support on the side of the case walls in the die, the outside of the shoulder cannot be pushed down(set back) due to the brass having nowhere to go.

Well, it would have one place to go, and that's in.

In effect what is happening is changing the shoulder angle due to the juncture of the neck/shoulder being pushed down?

[F. Guffey]

MrGuffey,

Per my previous post.
If i'm understanding you correctly.
Due to the support on the side of the case walls in the die, the outside of the shoulder cannot be pushed down(set back) due to the brass having nowhere to go.
In effect what is happening is changing the shoulder angle due to the juncture of the neck/shoulder being pushed down?

No, it is simply 'just no'; you guys make too big an effort to disagree. It can not be any more simpler than it is impossible but day after day reloaders manage to find a way to move the shoulder back, and then there is that 'bump' thing.

And then there is the 'dreaded donut' I have always said I have chambers that will never form donuts, I also have chambers that by design will form donuts and I have cases that forum donuts before I chamber and fire them.

F. Guffey

[HiBC]

std7mm
Most folks are here for one of two reasons. There is something they want to learn about,or they have a question. Or,they have knowledge or experience to share and help solve problems.
I see no value in dying whlie hoarding my experience.I'm happy to pass it onn.Give it away.And,its like the old story about a few fish and a little bread.With this forum,I can feed a lot of folks without losing anything.

There are folks who are here for other reasons.

The impact extrusion of beer cans is an interesting process.A pellet of aluminum is placed in the cavity of the die.The core impacts it.The aluminum squishes and squirts up the cavity of the die.It forms and flows.


A Gunsmith who mentored me a bit,an OldSchool kind of guy,used to chamber rifles in a cartridge he called "30 Dunlap" .I'm not sure the cartridge was developed by Roy Dunlap,I suspect t was named in his honor.

It was done by simply short chambering with a 30-06 reamer.The "custom" dies were simply shortened 30-06 dies.The result was a Mauser mag box length cartridge and a tight chamber..Brass was formed from 30-06.

Obviusly,the shoulder of the brass had to be moved back,and it could be moved back.

Are you ready?Here is where this silly,stupid semantics argument comes to a head.
There is what is done,versuhs how its done.There is the mathematical definition of a part,and there is the process of doing it.The same words might be appied to either. Some folks use words to communicate.Some folks use words to attempt to validate themselves.

I've worked in the same shop with folks from south of the border.Generally,their English was better than my Spanish. With a little patience and the will to understand each other,we could share ideas. What good would it do for me to take a conversation about a machine setup off in the weeds by criticizing my co-workers English? Would that help understanding the machine? No. It would probably be offensive and generate ill will
Communication was the point. If necessary in another conversation,(or post) my co-worker and I could work on his English and my Spanish to the benefit of both.That would not be a side trip off into the weeds.

Solid substances are pretty much uncompressible. They can displace or flow under pressure.A nail head is formed by whacking the end of a wire.

If you did shorten,versus collapse,the case bdy walls,they would have to get thicker.

There is another way a shoulder can dimensionally be "set back"The brass can flow,or form,or extrude,or crawl,up the inside of the die to make a longer neck.

Remember,there are no chips made.The brass will weigh the same.There will be the same volume of brass.Its just redistributed.

I prefer to simply say "Set the shoulder back".

Its one thing to explain a process in a way that lifts folks up.Its another to just try to put other folks down trying to raise yourself up.

In that thrd group of people,not the ones who want to learn,and not the ones who are happy to teach,are folks with a pathology.

Some are raving narcissists. But some are watching a former life fade .They struggle to remain relevant.Maybe they just are not well versed on human social skills. Actually,the Old Crotchety Gunsmith s not known for his social skills.

In Tolkiens works,was Gollum.Smeagol.The loathsome character.With "His Precious" which he was desperate to hold on to.

Later,when we learn more of the story,we can have some empathy for Gollum,and realize he was an integral part of the greater story.And not so different."There but by the Grace..."