The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Bolt, Lever, and Pump Action

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 18, 2020, 02:16 PM   #26
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 4,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by stagpanther View Post
The problem isn't the cartridge itself--but the confusion caused by the SAAMI specs submitted by winchester in my opinion. Between the range of specs for bullet diameter, headspace and case length I believe it's possible to get into trouble even when staying within those specs depending how all the tolerances stack up in whatever the gun it is you are using. Again, just my personal opinion, but a 9mm bore was not meant to have larger diameter bullets routinely fired in them. I could see the possibility where lead cast would be less consequential when engraving to the grooves than a jacketed or monolithic bullet. If the larger bullets were not an issue--my guess is the ammo manufacturers would be using them in their factory ammo. The only true 1.71 case I've found so far is made by Hornady.
There is really no problem so long as you understand what Winchester intended. (Imho)They designed the cartridge to perform to what they considered ideal, but to meet cartridge regs in a couple states, the numbers on paper dont exactly match the actual cartridge/bullet. One of the states has already caught it, but ignored it. They said they would use stated dimensions by manufacturer and not actual measured cartridge/bullet dimensions.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old January 18, 2020, 04:37 PM   #27
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 6,742
It's hard to explain--but you'll see once you start reloading for it. They foobarred it IMO.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is online now  
Old January 18, 2020, 04:45 PM   #28
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 4,985
There is no problem if yoy use 350 legend brass, 350 legend dies, and most importantly 350 Legend bullets. Winchester does not claim any bullet other than those marked 350 legend can be loaded for the legend. They mention potential problems of other bullets.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old January 18, 2020, 05:21 PM   #29
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 5,511
Other than Stag & myself, has anyone heard anything about mishaps with this cartridge ?





*We already know we have a brass problem (anomalous case length w/ one finished ammunition manufacturer, and overly-thin case web floor in another brass maker), But does anyone have firing-incident reports ?
mehavey is offline  
Old January 18, 2020, 06:30 PM   #30
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 4,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by mehavey View Post
Other than Stag & myself, has anyone heard anything about mishaps with this cartridge ?





*We already know we have a brass problem (anomalous case length w/ one finished ammunition manufacturer, and overly-thin case web floor in another brass maker), But does anyone have firing-incident reports ?
None not caused by error. I have heard of mishaps with about everything else. Bunch with the 450 b.m.
Kluckle heads using 456 or 458 in it.
You load the 350 legend with a bullet that did not come out of a box that said "350 Legend" then you sre asking for problems

Last edited by reynolds357; January 18, 2020 at 07:13 PM.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old January 18, 2020, 06:59 PM   #31
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 6,742
Quote:
"You load the 350 legend with a bullet that did not come out of a box that said "350 Legend" then you sre asking for problems"
Quite so.

Winchester's 2 available bullets, plus Hornady's are .355

They are not .355 + .001, nor are they .355 + .002.

The bore reamer is identical to the 9mm Luger (with the same groove width and depth) but slower twist.

That math does not add up to .357.

If what they REALLY mean is don't use any bullets or ammo other than the 4 or 5 .355 flavors that are out there already--then by gum they should just say so (oh wait, the .357 straightwall hunting restrictions party might be over??) Based on the SAAMI specs they submitted it is at this very moment possible to buy brass that can conceivably be fired with inadequate case head support based on what I've found.

Sure, you become a wildcatter and squeeze larger diameter bullets down the bore with a pretty wide margin of safety for the most part (I've done it over a hundred times so far) if you are willing to take the risks. But it is going to be REALLY hard to find a load that produces consistent results as evidenced by wide variations in velocity and SD figures, again, based on what I've experienced so far.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!

Last edited by stagpanther; January 18, 2020 at 07:33 PM.
stagpanther is online now  
Old January 18, 2020, 07:09 PM   #32
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 4,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by stagpanther View Post
Quite so.

Winchester's 2 available bullets, plus Hornady's are .355

They are not .355 + .001, nor are they .355 + .002.

The bore reamer is identical to the 9mm Luger (with the same groove width and depth) but slower twist.

That math does not add up to .357.

If what they REALLY mean is don't use any bullets or ammo other than the 4 or 5 .355 flavors that are out there already--then by gum they should just say so (oh wait, the .357 straightwall hunting restrictions party might be over??) Based on the SAAMI specs they submitted it is at this very moment possible to buy brass that can conceivably be fired with inadequate case head support based on what I've found.
Is that not what I said a few posts ago? In my opinion, it was intentional misnamed. I honestly dont care. I dint care that a .38 special and a .357 magnum are the same bore dia. I dont care that a .458 Win and a .460 Wby are the same bore. I dint care that a .375 H&H and a .378 Wby are the same bore. I dont care that a 280 Rem and a 284 Winchester are the same bore.
The "name game" dates way back.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old January 18, 2020, 07:25 PM   #33
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 6,742
Quote:
Is that not what I said a few posts ago? In my opinion, it was intentional misnamed. I honestly dont care. I dint care that a .38 special and a .357 magnum are the same bore dia. I dont care that a .458 Win and a .460 Wby are the same bore. I dint care that a .375 H&H and a .378 Wby are the same bore. I dont care that a 280 Rem and a 284 Winchester are the same bore.
The "name game" dates way back.
I get ya--but what I'm trying to express is a frustration with the utility of SAAMI specs in the first place as submitted by the manufacturer. The intent--at least as I understood that it at was supposed to be--was to provide a baseline for compliance for each cog in the firearms industry so that the final purchaser has some idea that they aren't going to blow themselves up when they first pull the trigger on the latest galactic megadeath cartridge released.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is online now  
Old January 18, 2020, 07:52 PM   #34
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 5,511
We have a problem.
Winchester itself says bullet dia is 357.
https://winchester.com/350-legend/faq

I would also offer that the SAAMI groove/bore of the 357Mag itself is 355/346 (which I might add is also that of the 9mm)

But we've been here before.....

.

Last edited by mehavey; January 18, 2020 at 07:59 PM.
mehavey is offline  
Old January 18, 2020, 09:03 PM   #35
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 6,742
The min bore and groove area in the 357 is larger than the 350L. I occasionally get some very tight groups with a .357 handload in the 350L--but it tends to very easily vary from one day to the next using the same load. My opinion is that even the slightest variations in timing can result in peak pressures having a dramatically different effect on the release and travel down the bore of the bullet. My labradar has captured quite a bit of data reflecting that with erratic velocities--sometimes lower charge weights having faster velocities than higher ones--or a sudden spike of a 100 fps or so within the same charge weight group being tested.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!

Last edited by stagpanther; January 18, 2020 at 09:23 PM.
stagpanther is online now  
Old January 18, 2020, 09:27 PM   #36
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 5,511
SAAMI:
Legend Bore/Groove Area: 0.967sqin
357Mag Bore/Goove Area: 0.969sqin
(⅕ of 1% difference/effectively identical)

They have identical bore/grove diameters so the 3rd decimal place is an interesting carry-through error in somebody's calculator)
mehavey is offline  
Old January 19, 2020, 03:08 AM   #37
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 6,742
I personally do not believe that just because the SAAMI bore specs appear to be the same for both the 357 mag and the 350 legend on paper--that ergo you can use the same bullets and expect the same performance.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is online now  
Old January 19, 2020, 08:17 AM   #38
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 6,742
I called an ammo manufacturer that makes 350 L ammo and asked them why their 350 L ammo uses a .355 bullet instead of .356 or .357. They explained it this way, while the specs do allow for a range up to .357, most bore reamers are likely going to be in the range of .355--in fact a bit less than that. Their decision was that the optimal choice--for both safety and consistency, was to use the .355 diameter rifle bullet.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is online now  
Old January 19, 2020, 08:48 AM   #39
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 5,511
Lowest common denominator, Stag -- another reason that bottleneck ammo manufacturers also load to lowest headspace dimension too -- so it fits in everything.

(Note that Federal loads 0.356 however -- go figure )
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...&postcount=152

But in our case, I think it's why we call ourselves handloaders. We tailor thing to what works best for the rifle in our hands.
mehavey is offline  
Old January 19, 2020, 09:14 AM   #40
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 6,742
Quote:
But in our case, I think it's why we call ourselves handloaders. We tailor thing to what works best for the rifle in our hands.
I can only "wish list it" at the moment--but I put in for one of KAK's "358" legends for that reason. BTW--I'm still VERY curious about the specs on your new CMMG set-up.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is online now  
Old January 19, 2020, 02:34 PM   #41
fourbore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 22, 2015
Location: new england
Posts: 1,159
I read the post very carefully. Where is the REVIEW? Was it one of those links? What does the gun weight? How does it feed, function and accuracy? Velocity suspect? Or do we agree the barrel length is appropriate for a hunting carbine. Was the gun fired?

Some of us who carry a gun hunting all day and getting a little grey around the edges appreciate tuppaware weight over having to exercize some shooting technique.

I dont know who is touting what claims, but; this round was obviously created for certain states with special (shorter range) cartridges allowed for deer hunting. They are suppose to be limited in range and velocity. If not, these jurisdictions would allow the 243, 308 etc that this is NOT supposed to equal. If it does, I expect it to be banned in those very regions for which it was created.
fourbore is offline  
Old January 19, 2020, 03:05 PM   #42
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 6,742
Quote:
I read the post very carefully. Where is the REVIEW? Was it one of those links? What does the gun weight? How does it feed, function and accuracy? Velocity suspect? Or do we agree the barrel length is appropriate for a hunting carbine. Was the gun fired?

Some of us who carry a gun hunting all day and getting a little grey around the edges appreciate tuppaware weight over having to exercize some shooting technique.

I dont know who is touting what claims, but; this round was obviously created for certain states with special (shorter range) cartridges allowed for deer hunting. They are suppose to be limited in range and velocity. If not, these jurisdictions would allow the 243, 308 etc that this is NOT supposed to equal. If it does, I expect it to be banned in those very regions for which it was created.
I did my review--maybe you didn't go to the beginning of thread? I know from past conversations you live in Maine (as do I)--this would be an excellent woods carry gun for the heavy forests of Maine iMO. Does it bring anything of significant benefit to a hunter in our state which allows a 30-30, I can't say from actual hunting experience--but I seriously doubt it. My rifle weighs all-up ready to rock 7 lbs, you could probably get that in the 6 to 6.5 range if you went lighter weight on optics set-up. The chamber/bolt dimensions keep the headspace within 1.714 so that gives a nice set and support for the head of all the cases I know of. The two days I fired it it was below zero windchill so I had to wear heavy gloves, perhaps the one real design issue I find for our state is the pretty tight trigger guard which doesn't allow for much room for a glove.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!

Last edited by stagpanther; January 19, 2020 at 03:11 PM.
stagpanther is online now  
Old January 19, 2020, 06:08 PM   #43
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 5,511
Stag, below-zero temps has got to play he!! w/ your powder burn,
With testing in cold temps I generally keep the ammunition in a pocket until loading. *
What are you using for powder/how are you accommodating the weather ?



* Initial tests only/then test temp effect to find "happy" window for all-round/all weather use
mehavey is offline  
Old January 19, 2020, 06:43 PM   #44
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 6,742
That's true--I test all my loads in both extreme cold and warm temps (and have for a long time)--because, well, stuff happens in Maine during hunting season. I've been testing loads using H110, IMR 4227 and AA 1680 for the 350 L. It's possible that the temp extreme accounts for quite a bit of SD variation, but what I'm seeing is a bit beyond that in my experience.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is online now  
Old January 19, 2020, 08:49 PM   #45
buckey
Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2016
Posts: 78
What's the odds that the same guy that brain stormed the WSSM cartridge line had his nose in the .350 Legend start up?
buckey is offline  
Old January 19, 2020, 09:09 PM   #46
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 5,511
Quote:
I've been testing loads using...
I'm going to push Norma 200 if you can lay your hands on some.
mehavey is offline  
Old January 19, 2020, 09:12 PM   #47
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 4,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by mehavey View Post
I'm going to push Norma 200 if you can lay your hands on some.
Powder Valley has plenty at the moment. And Midway and Graf and just about everybody else.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old January 20, 2020, 12:36 PM   #48
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 5,511
mehavey is offline  
Old January 20, 2020, 12:52 PM   #49
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 4,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by mehavey View Post
Why exactly is that going to get a novice in trouble?
reynolds357 is offline  
Old January 20, 2020, 01:47 PM   #50
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 5,511
Because he's going to either...

1. Blindly follow a "recipe" that -- in fact -- jams a bullet into the freebore/throat of that rifle, or
2. Use a "similar weight" bullet at an OAL wherein the different shape jams a bullet into the freebore/throat.

Cast-Bullet-wise it will jam/fail to completely close & fully rotate the bolt/require mortaring to extract the cartridge/much higher pressures
Jacket bullets will jam/fail to completely close & fully rotate the bolt/require significant mortaring to extract the cartridge/significantly higher pressures

Someone who truly know what they're doing can overcome/accommodate these narrow parameters/issues/vulnerabilities in using a straightforward engineering approach to check form & function below letting the bolt go. New guys have enough of a problem w/o having to deal with them straight out of the starting gate.
mehavey is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09889 seconds with 9 queries