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Old December 31, 2019, 04:46 PM   #26
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It is just being highlighted for the purpose of pushing gun control.
And, to be fair, because it is sensational and something that the media knows will attract viewers.
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Old December 31, 2019, 05:44 PM   #27
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Yes, it is a perfect story for today’s clickbait media. It doesn’t only draw eyes to start with, but it is “sticky” in the comment section as well.
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Old December 31, 2019, 05:57 PM   #28
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Giant shocker - attacker was a mentally ill prohibited person with a criminal record. He had apparently visited the church several times for handouts but frequently became angry when given food instead of cash according to the pastor.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-chu...vists-minister
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Old December 31, 2019, 06:54 PM   #29
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Look, I get the frustration. However this is a site full of advice on how to respond to deadly threats. When you describe everyone who disagrees with us on gun control policy as someone who wants us dead that's a concern for me.

The facts in this tragedy support our cause. The media has been unable to refute that so far. Why not take a breath, grieve the loss, and then use the facts to support our case?
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Old December 31, 2019, 07:17 PM   #30
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When you describe everyone who disagrees with us on gun control policy as someone who wants us dead that's a concern for me.
A. That’s not what I did or said.
B. I don’t care if you are concerned.
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Old December 31, 2019, 07:50 PM   #31
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When you describe everyone who disagrees with us on gun control policy as someone who wants us dead that's a concern for me.
There are those who oppose us, and those who don't support us.

IMHO, there are a lot of people in the Yoo Ess of Ay who "support" gun control because they have been brainwashed to believe that gun control is the magic talisman that will make everyone safe and the world filled with pink unicorns. I don't think those people want us dead. They just think we're crazy.

But then there are the active proponents of gun control, the Chuck Schumers, the Michael Bloombergs, the Shannon Wattses, the media shill talking heads ... if you don't believe they would be overjoyed to wake up and find that all the pro-2A citizens in the U.S. were suddenly dead, I honestly think you are not seeing them for who and what they are. I'm not saying they want to kill us -- but they'd be giddy with joy if someone else did it for them.
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Old December 31, 2019, 07:55 PM   #32
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The pro gun-control advocates don't see this as a legitimate justification for gun rights at all. They just see more gun violence, and yet another shooting. They don't see good guys and bad guys. They just see gun guys. To them, the assailant was just another gun guy, and a problem that is internal to the gun culture. The argument that we need more gun people to take out other gun people doesn't make sense to them and they're just worried about getting caught in the gun people's crossfire. Therefore, they see a need for an authority to step in and take the guns away from everyone.

If they were in that church that day, they weren't just horrified by two innocent people being killed, but also by all the people, more than a half-dozen, drawing their guns and pointing their guns, and in their hoplophobia, want all the guns to go away.

To them, they just see a church full of people that appear eager for gun play and it doesn't in any way resolve the nightmare that unfolded.

The pro-gun rights people's answer so far has amounted to, "it could have been worse." Which, from the perspective of someone pro-gun control is interpreted as the gun people saying, "we can make it worse."
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Old December 31, 2019, 08:03 PM   #33
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To them, they just see a church full of people that appear eager for gun play and it doesn't in any way resolve the nightmare that unfolded.
I've followed this story, and I haven't seen or heard that narrative reported. I'll concede that they don't know what to think because none of their theories played out.
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Old December 31, 2019, 08:12 PM   #34
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A. That’s not what I did or said.
You said this:

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They’d rather see that whole church murdered because it is a double-win. Wrongthinking people dead and a new drum to beat to disarm the rest of us. It is time, more like way past time, to acknowledge a vast proportion of our opponents do not disagree with us out of goodwill differences on policy. They disagree with us because they want us dead.
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Old December 31, 2019, 08:26 PM   #35
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But then there are the active proponents of gun control, the Chuck Schumers, the Michael Bloombergs, the Shannon Wattses, the media shill talking heads ... if you don't believe they would be overjoyed to wake up and find that all the pro-2A citizens in the U.S. were suddenly dead, I honestly think you are not seeing them for who and what they are. I'm not saying they want to kill us -- but they'd be giddy with joy if someone else did it for them.
I don't believe that. I do believe that they'd be thrilled to wake up and find us too lazy to vote and organize. That's much different than celebrating the deaths of fellow Americans.
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Old December 31, 2019, 08:28 PM   #36
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Well, you can cut & paste. Now, explain the difference between your summary of what I said and what I actually said so we can see if you understand as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainah
I don't believe that. I do believe that they'd be thrilled to wake up and find us too lazy to vote and organize. That's much different than celebrating the deaths of fellow Americans.
Yes, I understand you don’t believe that. It was abundantly clear that you have different views than me on this subject from the first post. I don’t understand why you think restating what you believe in different ways is going to change my mind. I disagree with you.

In theory, you could sway my opinion by stating facts that support your argument. In practice, you haven’t demonstrated you are capable of even that step and since I haven’t arrived at my opinion casually, it strikes me as unlikely you will be able to marshal any kind of facts that sway my opinion - but it would be a nice change from just restating your opinion in different ways and thinking I’m going to be convinced by that.

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Old December 31, 2019, 08:37 PM   #37
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That's a very good point and a great question. I have several close family members and several close friends who support gun additional gun control. Yet I love them and I know that they love me, and I know that they would never wish me harm.

They just want to feel safe. I took your post as an implication that most gun control advocates would rather see me dead than make any concessions. That has not been my experience.
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Old December 31, 2019, 08:40 PM   #38
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They are reporting how the gunman had multiple arrests and a long criminal record but was still able to obtain or possess a gun because in spite of his record of criminal offenses and mental illness he was not on any kind of "watch list," there was no red-flag law that could have been used to strip him of his guns, and no universal background check to prevent him from possessing.

Additionally, they're repeatedly misreporting Jack Wilson as a former FBI-agent to support the narrative that law-enforcement alone has the proper credentials to handle firearms appropriately. The whole FBI thing appears to be a complete fabrication.

It is true the story doesn't support pro-gun-control's false narrative as well as mass-shootings where intervention comes even later, and that's why the story is being buried after only two days. By tomorrow, it will be completely out of the newscycle.
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Old December 31, 2019, 08:43 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Mainah
They just want to feel safe. I took your post as an implication that most gun control advocates would rather see me dead than make any concessions. That has not been my experience
If they love you and would never wish you harm, why does your being armed make them feel unsafe?
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Old December 31, 2019, 08:55 PM   #40
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Good question. Consider this article from another thread here: https://medium.com/handwaving-freako...l-277cb90fa06d

I grew up in Pittsburgh, and lived in Maine. The article describes clear patterns of suicide vs. homicide gun deaths in both regions. it is possible to live somewhere that experiences relatively low gun violence and still have experienced great personal tragedy associated with guns. In either case if you aren't familiar with guns it's all terrifying.
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Old December 31, 2019, 09:31 PM   #41
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Yes, that’s my thread. I know what it describes. I’m not quite sure why you feel a need to explain what I thought in my posts and threads. I can guarantee you, I know what is going on there

However, I feel like you sidestepped my question. You say they want to feel safe. From your own words, I get the impression is they are afraid of you - not afraid for you. I’m not saying my perception is correct; but I think it is worth giving serious consideration to why people who love you and wish you no harm would want you disarmed.

At a minimum, it suggests they don’t think you are competent to own firearms. And that’s the kindest interpretation.
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Old December 31, 2019, 09:59 PM   #42
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You are clever. But you still haven't come up with anything to support this statement:

Quote:
They’d rather see that whole church murdered because it is a double-win. Wrongthinking people dead and a new drum to beat to disarm the rest of us. It is time, more like way past time, to acknowledge a vast proportion of our opponents do not disagree with us out of goodwill differences on policy. They disagree with us because they want us dead.
Maybe examine your own fears.
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Old December 31, 2019, 10:26 PM   #43
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They are reporting how the gunman had multiple arrests and a long criminal record but was still able to obtain or possess a gun because in spite of his record of criminal offenses and mental illness he was not on any kind of "watch list," there was no red-flag law that could have been used to strip him of his guns, and no universal background check to prevent him from possessing.
Despite my distrust of the accuracy of popular media reporting (repeatedly re-enforced), I am curious to know the answers to certain questions about this killer. And how they relate to the actual law, and the claims of the gun control zealots.

so, "multiple arrests and a long criminal history"... was he a legally prohibited person??

Where did the shotgun come from? legally purchased? WHEN? Illegaly purchased?? was the gun something this "homeless" man already had? had for years? got last week? things like that...

they say he had a drug problem and was out of touch with reality. Ok...so, he's begging for food at a church, getting mad when they don't give him money, and he has a shotgun he could sell for drug (or even food) money??

watch list? Red flag laws?? according to what some said, "we knew he was crazy, but didn't think he was that crazy"....one hears that often, when someone who is "off" flips out and does murder.

Background check? If the gun was bought from an FFL dealer a check was done. Unless the gun was bought long ago.

If the gun was bought "on the street" even a law requiring a check wouldn't be complied with.

For me, its just idle curiosity but I'd just like to know how close reality was to what is being claimed right now, as justification for more laws.

Seems to me no law of man will stop a person who commits murder in a church.
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Old December 31, 2019, 10:43 PM   #44
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I’ve developed that position over almost 20 years now, Mainah. A lot of which you can see and read here as it changed. I haven’t explained how I arrived there with factual statements to support it because I DON’T CARE ABOUT YOU. I’m stating my position. I don’t care whether you believe it.

And you mistake me. Those aren’t fears. I am very ready to quit pretending we are all just one big dysfunctional family and it will work out. We aren’t and it won’t.
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Old December 31, 2019, 11:00 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Mainah
That's a very good point and a great question. I have several close family members and several close friends who support gun additional gun control. Yet I love them and I know that they love me, and I know that they would never wish me harm.
However, are any of these close relatives and friends influential members of Congress, or nationally known politicians, or prominent media personalities? If not they belong in the group I described above as "people in the Yoo Ess of Ay who "support" gun control because they have been brainwashed to believe that gun control is the magic talisman that will make everyone safe and the world filled with pink unicorns."

The people I think Mr. Roberts is talking about are those I described as "the active proponents of gun control, the Chuck Schumers, the Michael Bloombergs, the Shannon Wattses, the media shill talking heads ..." I agree with Mr. Roberts ... I think the latter group would be VERY happy to wake up and find that everyone on the pro-2A side had dropped dead or been killed overnight. You don't have to accept that ... it's an opinion. Apparently Mr. Roberts and I are of one opinion on this point. The fact that you don't share this opinion does not in any way invalidate it.
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Old January 1, 2020, 08:44 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
I’ve developed that position over almost 20 years now, Mainah. A lot of which you can see and read here as it changed. I haven’t explained how I arrived there with factual statements to support it because I DON’T CARE ABOUT YOU. I’m stating my position. I don’t care whether you believe it.

And you mistake me. Those aren’t fears. I am very ready to quit pretending we are all just one big dysfunctional family and it will work out. We aren’t and it won’t.
I don't know why some people are acting like we're all in this together. We are not. Rs still want to live in America... Ds? Out of all my extended family (not all are D) all but one of the radical leftists hated Bush so much, they were rooting for my death in Iraq... and I found this out from the one that still resembled an American. Would you ever wish that on your sister or brother's kids? ''

I guess some people just think they're just like good ole patriotic Americans that just want to be safe.

I bet some people think Obama and the Dems really wanted to provide healthcare to all Americans... anyway.

Here are the questions I want answered.

1. How do you stop a mentally ill, convicted felon from waking up one day and loading up 15 x 30 round magazines and entering a school, church or other venue from attacking and killing innocent people?

2. How do you stop a person with no criminal record, no mental illness and whose friends and family would never suspect were capable of waking up one day and loading up 15x 30 round magazines and entering a school, church or other venue from attacking and killing innocent people?

I guess it is wonderful that some people in this very day and age still choose to be unarmed and are champions of disarming everyone, including police in some places... wonderful for the future shooters that is.

I choose to be prepared to deal with it on a case by case basis as soon as someone involves me in their BS.

This might be a helpful realization to some, maybe something to argue about for others. But as soon as you realize the Political Class of Democrats in this country have absolutely no intention on solving any Gun Violence Crisis, the clearer you might understand their actions. The dems use phony sexual assault, phony cries of racism and hysterical outrage on convenient incidents involving gun violence to bludgeon conservatives with, as a political weapon. If they addressed gun violence and implemented a single viable solution, and it actually had an impact, they would be eliminating 50% of their political tactics. Why on earth would they solve a problem that they continually use as a cudgel to beat up republicans and make us seem like we don't care about the misery and violence in the US as along we get to buy a gun when we want?

The professional political class democrats are using the useful idiots to do their bidding and they bite hook line and sinker. They abuse a population that they have carefully crafted to be devoid of critical thinking and are unable to question their captors.... pretty much armies of this Greta Thundberg. They flood their brains with unicorn databases, universal background checks and how wonderful all these red flag laws are. But refer to my second question. How do you stop that person? Doesn't matter to them, their plan is working fine... it is American vs. American and we're fighting about solutions to violence that they know will never pan out... and dividing us is the goal all along so they have a chance at picking up a seat or two... so they can implement their bigger plans.
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Old January 1, 2020, 08:59 AM   #47
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Look, I get the frustration. However this is a site full of advice on how to respond to deadly threats. When you describe everyone who disagrees with us on gun control policy as someone who wants us dead that's a concern for me.

The facts in this tragedy support our cause. The media has been unable to refute that so far. Why not take a breath, grieve the loss, and then use the facts to support our case?
Like any discussion like this, people that see this incident for what it IS, an armed person killing a 'bad guy' with a gun, DO use the facts to support that case. And like any discussion, there will be an 'other side' that refute these facts. BUT nobody is wishing the 'other side' was dead..IMHO.

Of COURSE, designating the church a 'gun free zone' would not have helped. Of COURSE in this instance, armed security was a GOOD thing.

BUT, castro and others don't want pro gun people dead. Any more than the vast majority of pro trump people didn't want Clinton 'dead' if she were elected..like I saw on a few interviews at rallies..

I would like to know how this guy, felon and documented as mentally ill, got a shotgun?
I see this
Quote:
They are reporting how the gunman had multiple arrests and a long criminal record but was still able to obtain or possess a gun because in spite of his record of criminal offenses and mental illness he was not on any kind of "watch list,
He was convicted of at least 2 felonies over 5 YEARS ago..what happened? Why wasn't he on a 'watchlist'???
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Old January 1, 2020, 11:56 AM   #48
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He was convicted of at least 2 felonies over 5 YEARS ago..what happened? Why wasn't he on a 'watchlist'???
What "watchlist" do you think he should have been on? How many watchlists do you think the various levels of our government have?

He was (apparently) a prohibited person based on his status as a convicted felon. [Question: WAS he a convicted felon, or were all his convictions for misdemeanors?] That should put him in the NICS system and should have prevented his buying a firearm from an FFL, but that would not prevent him from making a face-to-face buy, either from a legitimate seller or on a street corner late at night. It also would not have prevented him from stealing a firearm.

Let's be clear: laws apply to honest people, those who obey the law. By definition, criminals are people who do NOT obey laws. The ONLY possible way to absolutely ensure that criminals can't obtain firearms is to completely eliminate firearms from the United States ... COMPLETELY.
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Old January 1, 2020, 02:18 PM   #49
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Here are the questions I want answered.

1. How do you stop a mentally ill, convicted felon from waking up one day and loading up 15 x 30 round magazines and entering a school, church or other venue from attacking and killing innocent people?

2. How do you stop a person with no criminal record, no mental illness and whose friends and family would never suspect were capable of waking up one day and loading up 15x 30 round magazines and entering a school, church or other venue from attacking and killing innocent people?
#1) You stop them by physically removing them from society. And keeping them there. PERMANENTLY.

#2) You can't.
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Old January 1, 2020, 03:15 PM   #50
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#1) You stop them by physically removing them from society. And keeping them there. PERMANENTLY.

#2) You can't.
You're right... not that I claim to have the solution, but I think it is realistic.

Since both categories of people can roam around freely and no one can read their minds or legislate their behavior, regardless of magical databases, ankle bracelets, parole status, FBI surveillance (Omar Mateen... cut short for political reasons during Obama's era) or the mighty sheet of paper known as a restraining order, you have to be prepared when they attack and then take them out. There is no way around it. Once people are outside in the real world you just have to be ready when something happens. How ready is TBD by the individual and is case by case. We go off what we think is predictable and throw in some worst case scenarios, and then go on living day to day. Living day to day is what we do anyway despite how far out our personal calendars go with all the stuff we want to do.

Legislation will not save anyone, if anything it will cause more harm than good. Just an example, felons are prohibited persons. This may be the biggest joke on the books. Someone getting out of prison will even take priority and have a gun already reserved for them. I can tell you everyone of my friend's families had many guns and shotguns and all out in plain view and none were legal... not everyone was a felon though, but the black market is Top Notch Reliable... same as crack and meth delivered to your door whenever you want it.

So why keep fighting over legislation and taking sides when the goal is to get us to fight and create physiological reactions that just piss you off even more, creating more division. If there was a democrat in office that wanted to do something about gun violence, they have their choice of hell hole to get started on. But they just continue to ask for their votes and do nothing for them... kid dies on the way to school in gang crossfire, republicans are the bad man... 8 shot outside night club in Brooklyn, republicans bad and southern states bad. It took them a while to get that effect, but that is reality today... the politicians and race hucksters have the oppressed right where they want them and the last thing they will do is accept help from Trump. And the saddest thing is that these are average everyday Americans that live in these urban areas. They deserve better. Some people want to make things better. But there is always a certain political party in the way. Not all democrats are playing checkers. A lot of this is by design.

The White Settlement outcome is much preferred over the Sutherland Springs outcome, not that it is any consolation for the lady yelling in the video. But that security mindset throughout that church that day is the best answer to my questions 1 and 2.
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