Winchester Defender Vs. Mossberg 500 - Page 2

Dave McC · March 14, 2001, 12:53 PM

Grapeshot, I doubt any perp shot with a 20 ga in a HD scenario will be able to tell it wasn't a 12 ga.Nor shall he care(G)...

Downside, the 20 is USUALLY lighter and handles faster than a similiar 12, but oft heavy loads in a 20 kick worse than the equivalent 12. The lighter weight is the main culprit. A smaller butt on most 20s is a secondary source of trouble. Less surface area means more push per inch.

I've seen excellent work done with 12s by feathermerchants, but not often.The keys are committment and practice.

US Marshall(Formerly MD DOC Sgt) Janice Parks is comely, athletic and about 5'4", 120 lbs. She was an outstanding shotgunner, and probably still is.

There's an old thread here about proper mounting techniques, call it Serious Shotgunning 101.It may help you out.

There's also old threads on dealing with kick, lots of them. You're not the only one that's had a glitch or two.

Grapeshot · March 14, 2001, 01:05 PM

I'll do that Dave, thanks.

If possible, I would like to stick with a 12 - accessories and ammo are easier to come by.

General Tso · March 14, 2001, 01:43 PM

I agree wholeheartedly with Dave on this one Grapeshot. I personally can't reacll ever shooting a 20 gauge (I have a bunch of 12's and a 10

) but I see a lot of folks using them in Cowboy Action Shooting.

Interesting thing here is that many smaller stature guys, women and the recoil sensitive buy 20's thinking they'll be easier to shoot and in many cases that doesn't prove to be entirely correct. Watching them shoot it's interesting to see that those 20's sometimes seem to have "sharper" (if that makes sense) recoil than the 12's. Mind you we're typically dealing with short barreled coach guns here.

Like Dave mentions, the 20's lighter weight and smaller size actually seems to transfer more recoil to the shooter, even with lighter loads. The guns attributes seem to matter as much or more than the gauge in my experience.

Here's an example: My 10 gauge is a behemoth double barrel with realatively short 22" tubes. Despite that, recoil with 3 1/2" mags is actually more tolerable through it than 3" mag 12's are through my pump riot gun simply bause the damn 10 is such a heavy pig and has a broad buttplate. It sucks up teh recoil better it seems even though the loads are heavier.

Keep in mind also, with a 12 you have a wide variety of loads to choose from so you can always go lighter if you want less recoil, especially for practice and general familiarization.

Going back to my CAS observations, I see small stature females using 12's with the best of them and the key seems to be practice and technique.

gunmart · March 14, 2001, 03:00 PM

just got word last fall (from a real navy seal) that they are getting rid of the moss 590 because they where not holding up.they have gone back to the rem 870 and are waiting on the new benelli./..

i guess they had to find out the hard way!!!!.

why should you?

Nimrod · March 25, 2001, 08:52 PM

Doc: That's the mark of a "worked" pump gun. Those in the know knew that a "poor boy" action job on a pump was to disassemle, remove all lube and put valve grinding compound on everything that moved or rubbed. Then cycle the daylights out of the action a few thousand times until everything was smooth and shiny. The, clean VERY thoroughly and lube as appropriate. That was the poor boys action job that worked.

WoundChannel · March 29, 2001, 04:56 AM

I owned a Winchester Defender in the past. When I went to buy again, I switched to a Remington 870. The 870 edges out the 1300 when it comes to quality IMHO. I like the 870s engineering a little better. I just have to get accustomed to the location of the 870's slide release. I believe the way the 870's barrel fits to the reciever is was a better idea too. But then again the $150.00 I paid for the new Winchester was hard to beat.

Katrina Guy · July 2, 2006, 01:49 PM

Hi, brand new to this forum. I have made up my mind, partically based on messages posted here to purchase a new Winchester Defender. I feel the NEED for the mulitple shotgun shell rounds, sorry, I'm from New Orleans and am never going through THAT again wherever I live, if Marlin for instance made a version that was reliable that held a dozen rounds I would be prone to that model.
Now then, my question to you good people is this, I like the compactness of the pistol grip version of the Defender, or any riot type shotgun for that matter, however I am wondering how practical this is regarding actual shooting. Not shooting from the hip like in movies but actually holding it up as a regular shotgun to fire, seems like one unless they possess the body of Grizzly Adams would end up with a face full of shotgun butt???
Please, anyone here has a riot type shotgun with a pistol grip, give me your experience firing it.
IN the aftermath of Katrina in New Orleans one would be carrying their Defender everywhere they went indoors, even to the toilet, I've lived through/witnessed what most of you won't ever see in a lifetime, unless perhaps you've lived through the L.A. riots in 1990.
Next question: I have no intention of ever being, as a law abiding citizen of the United States, having some law enforcement bozo knock on my door and ORDER me out in five minutes or go to a jail with no judge to see the next day, or next month for that matter, so, will slugs, say sabot slugs eliminate this threat, i.e. bullet proof vest penetration.
I'm a white collar professional, not some yahoo gun packing clown, as were just about ALL of law enforcement from all over the world in New Orleans after Katrina. Sorry if anyone in here is with law enforcement, mean no offense just seeking help in the right defense riot gun to get.
Finally but related to the topic of pistol grip or not, would a Defender model in 20 guage equiped with a pistol grip be better?

Thanks,
again I'm new here and have read all of the post and am prethanking you all.
Katrina Guy

M14fan · July 2, 2006, 03:23 PM

I have used the Mossberg 500 and 590 for years. I have never had a malfunction of any kind. I have not had the opportunity to use the Winchester and cannot comment on it. I will say that the 870 has a smoother action than the 500 but I have seen an 870 action bind and fail. All three manufacturers have successful histories (though Winchester no longer makes the 1300), I doubt you will be disapointed with either one.

USMCGrunt · July 2, 2006, 04:45 PM

Well, a little history here. When I was in the Marines, we had Winchester 1200s, Mossberg M590s and a couple M870s. Now in the Air Force as a CATM instructor, I see mainly M870 shotguns. Personally, I own a Mossberg M500 and two Remington M870. Here's my epxerience:

Winchester 1200: These were older shotguns probably made around the late 60's (my time was the late 80s') They were lighter and easy to carry around on post. However, they weren't a very popular gun. The main reason was that when they were fired, the slide tended to unlock and the forend would want to shoot back with the recoil. Winchester claims that this was to aid the speed of the action but the biggest gripe I heard was that it was disconcerting and if I want a slide to move backwards, I'll be the one pulling it back rather than having it shoot back out of my hands. Other complaints about the 1200 was the action release lever was pretty small making it harder to use and on those guns without the heat shields, the front bead was also on the small side.

Mossberg M590/M500 series. The Mossberg M590 for us was a lot more popular than the M1200 we carried. The ambidextrious safety was a benefit for left handers and the carrier that rode against the bottom of the bolt prevented any malfunctions caused by shells that didn't engage the shell latches. The action release was a lot larger than the 1200 making it easier to use if needed. On my personal M500, I did find that the safety lever cracked as time went by but a steel version from Brownells cured that problem with little effort. My Mossberg was for many years when I was farming my main shotgun for clearing blackbirds out of the sunflower fields and many, many, many cases of shells went through it without ever having a stoppage or malfunction. It's been said that the alloy reciever isn't as durable as the steel reciever of the M870 but with the number of rounds I've put down range with mine, I don't think this is really an issue especially when the locking block locks into the barrel extension rather than the reciever.

Remington M870: We had a couple M870s with short barrels and top folding stocks when I was in the Marines but we seldom used them outside of guarding the Admiral for CINCSouth. My main military expereince with the M870 has been in the Air Force. Now while these are older shotguns, a recurring problem I have seen on a lot of them in the armory has been loose shell latches. Unlike the Mossberg with it's loose latches, the shell latches of the M870 are staked into the reciever (the ejector is also staked into the reciever as well) and over time, they loosen up and require staking again. There are some I have come across however that are almost out of room to have this option done again. If they run out of room, it's back to depot for that weapon and we have to get a new one and the old one is destroyed. The carrier is also solid and unlike the Mossberg rests at the bottom of the reciever when not lifting a shell into the chamber. Now if you have a weak right shell catch that will allow a shell to slip past it (or as what happened with one of my 870's during unloading where it slipped past my fingers somehow) the shell will get between the carrier and closed bolt. With solid carriers, the only way to get the shell out is to take apart the magazine tube to relieve the pressure and in some cases, remove the trigger assembly to get the offending shell out. After this happened on my personal M870, I dremel cut a slot about 3/4 of the length of the carrier so now when it happens again, I can push the shell back into the magazine tube with a knife blade or key. Now supposidly the newer carriers have a"flex tab" of sorts where if this happens you bang the butt on the ground and it will clear the weapon but I've never really seen this in action. As for the safety button, it's alright for right handed shooters but for left handed shooters, it can be a bit more of a challenge. The action bar release is also larger than the Mossberg or Winchester but it's position doesn't allow you to manipulate it without shifting your grip.

Given the choice between the 3 shotguns, the Mossberg, Remington, and Winchester, my first choice would be the Mossberg. It's been dead relaible and durable in both my military and personal experinces. My next choice would be the Remington. It's a rugged and durable shotgun however, with the shell latches and ejector being staked in place I see this as an area that can cause problems when the stakes loosen up. Also, the solid shell carrier in earlier models can also cause problems if a shell slips past the latches. My last choice (and probably the reason I don't own one) is the Winchester. I just couldn't get used to the slide blowing back with the recoil and the small action bar release button. While none of the Winchesters I've fired had a problem with shells slipping past the shell latches, the solid carrier of the Winchesters also make me wonder if the same problem the Remington has of rounds between the bolt and carrier tying up the action would also apply here as well.

tacticalcity · July 10, 2006, 03:18 PM

Neither...get a Remington 870! You can get them now with an 18" imp. cyldr barrel and 7 shot magazine extension already on them. They even have one that comes with the Knoxx recoil reducing SpecOps stock, a must have. I own several shotguns, and between my Mossberg 500 and my Remington 870, I reach for the Remington every single time.

July 2, 2006, 01:49 PM	#32
Katrina Guy Junior member Join Date: July 2, 2006 Posts: 315	Pistol Grip on a Winchester Defender (pratical)? Hi, brand new to this forum. I have made up my mind, partically based on messages posted here to purchase a new Winchester Defender. I feel the NEED for the mulitple shotgun shell rounds, sorry, I'm from New Orleans and am never going through THAT again wherever I live, if Marlin for instance made a version that was reliable that held a dozen rounds I would be prone to that model. Now then, my question to you good people is this, I like the compactness of the pistol grip version of the Defender, or any riot type shotgun for that matter, however I am wondering how practical this is regarding actual shooting. Not shooting from the hip like in movies but actually holding it up as a regular shotgun to fire, seems like one unless they possess the body of Grizzly Adams would end up with a face full of shotgun butt??? Please, anyone here has a riot type shotgun with a pistol grip, give me your experience firing it. IN the aftermath of Katrina in New Orleans one would be carrying their Defender everywhere they went indoors, even to the toilet, I've lived through/witnessed what most of you won't ever see in a lifetime, unless perhaps you've lived through the L.A. riots in 1990. Next question: I have no intention of ever being, as a law abiding citizen of the United States, having some law enforcement bozo knock on my door and ORDER me out in five minutes or go to a jail with no judge to see the next day, or next month for that matter, so, will slugs, say sabot slugs eliminate this threat, i.e. bullet proof vest penetration. I'm a white collar professional, not some yahoo gun packing clown, as were just about ALL of law enforcement from all over the world in New Orleans after Katrina. Sorry if anyone in here is with law enforcement, mean no offense just seeking help in the right defense riot gun to get. Finally but related to the topic of pistol grip or not, would a Defender model in 20 guage equiped with a pistol grip be better? Thanks, again I'm new here and have read all of the post and am prethanking you all. Katrina Guy

July 2, 2006, 03:23 PM	#33
M14fan Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 777	Mossberg I have used the Mossberg 500 and 590 for years. I have never had a malfunction of any kind. I have not had the opportunity to use the Winchester and cannot comment on it. I will say that the 870 has a smoother action than the 500 but I have seen an 870 action bind and fail. All three manufacturers have successful histories (though Winchester no longer makes the 1300), I doubt you will be disapointed with either one. __________________ "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." --George Washington

July 10, 2006, 03:18 PM	#35
tacticalcity Member Join Date: July 10, 2006 Posts: 16	Neither...Remington 870! Neither...get a Remington 870! You can get them now with an 18" imp. cyldr barrel and 7 shot magazine extension already on them. They even have one that comes with the Knoxx recoil reducing SpecOps stock, a must have. I own several shotguns, and between my Mossberg 500 and my Remington 870, I reach for the Remington every single time.

March 14, 2001, 12:53 PM	#26
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Grapeshot, I doubt any perp shot with a 20 ga in a HD scenario will be able to tell it wasn't a 12 ga.Nor shall he care(G)... Downside, the 20 is USUALLY lighter and handles faster than a similiar 12, but oft heavy loads in a 20 kick worse than the equivalent 12. The lighter weight is the main culprit. A smaller butt on most 20s is a secondary source of trouble. Less surface area means more push per inch. I've seen excellent work done with 12s by feathermerchants, but not often.The keys are committment and practice. US Marshall(Formerly MD DOC Sgt) Janice Parks is comely, athletic and about 5'4", 120 lbs. She was an outstanding shotgunner, and probably still is. There's an old thread here about proper mounting techniques, call it Serious Shotgunning 101.It may help you out. There's also old threads on dealing with kick, lots of them. You're not the only one that's had a glitch or two.

March 14, 2001, 01:05 PM	#27
Grapeshot Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2000 Location: WV Posts: 351	I'll do that Dave, thanks. If possible, I would like to stick with a 12 - accessories and ammo are easier to come by.

March 14, 2001, 01:43 PM	#28
General Tso Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2000 Posts: 133	I agree wholeheartedly with Dave on this one Grapeshot. I personally can't reacll ever shooting a 20 gauge (I have a bunch of 12's and a 10 ) but I see a lot of folks using them in Cowboy Action Shooting. Interesting thing here is that many smaller stature guys, women and the recoil sensitive buy 20's thinking they'll be easier to shoot and in many cases that doesn't prove to be entirely correct. Watching them shoot it's interesting to see that those 20's sometimes seem to have "sharper" (if that makes sense) recoil than the 12's. Mind you we're typically dealing with short barreled coach guns here. Like Dave mentions, the 20's lighter weight and smaller size actually seems to transfer more recoil to the shooter, even with lighter loads. The guns attributes seem to matter as much or more than the gauge in my experience. Here's an example: My 10 gauge is a behemoth double barrel with realatively short 22" tubes. Despite that, recoil with 3 1/2" mags is actually more tolerable through it than 3" mag 12's are through my pump riot gun simply bause the damn 10 is such a heavy pig and has a broad buttplate. It sucks up teh recoil better it seems even though the loads are heavier. Keep in mind also, with a 12 you have a wide variety of loads to choose from so you can always go lighter if you want less recoil, especially for practice and general familiarization. Going back to my CAS observations, I see small stature females using 12's with the best of them and the key seems to be practice and technique.

March 14, 2001, 03:00 PM	#29
gunmart Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2000 Posts: 551	just got word last fall (from a real navy seal) that they are getting rid of the moss 590 because they where not holding up.they have gone back to the rem 870 and are waiting on the new benelli./.. i guess they had to find out the hard way!!!!. why should you?

March 25, 2001, 08:52 PM	#30
Nimrod Member Join Date: February 18, 2001 Posts: 78	Doc: That's the mark of a "worked" pump gun. Those in the know knew that a "poor boy" action job on a pump was to disassemle, remove all lube and put valve grinding compound on everything that moved or rubbed. Then cycle the daylights out of the action a few thousand times until everything was smooth and shiny. The, clean VERY thoroughly and lube as appropriate. That was the poor boys action job that worked.

March 29, 2001, 04:56 AM	#31
WoundChannel Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2001 Location: Washington Posts: 171	I owned a Winchester Defender in the past. When I went to buy again, I switched to a Remington 870. The 870 edges out the 1300 when it comes to quality IMHO. I like the 870s engineering a little better. I just have to get accustomed to the location of the 870's slide release. I believe the way the 870's barrel fits to the reciever is was a better idea too. But then again the $150.00 I paid for the new Winchester was hard to beat.

July 2, 2006, 04:45 PM	#34
USMCGrunt Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2000 Location: Somewhere in 14T NT Posts: 730	Well, a little history here. When I was in the Marines, we had Winchester 1200s, Mossberg M590s and a couple M870s. Now in the Air Force as a CATM instructor, I see mainly M870 shotguns. Personally, I own a Mossberg M500 and two Remington M870. Here's my epxerience: Winchester 1200: These were older shotguns probably made around the late 60's (my time was the late 80s') They were lighter and easy to carry around on post. However, they weren't a very popular gun. The main reason was that when they were fired, the slide tended to unlock and the forend would want to shoot back with the recoil. Winchester claims that this was to aid the speed of the action but the biggest gripe I heard was that it was disconcerting and if I want a slide to move backwards, I'll be the one pulling it back rather than having it shoot back out of my hands. Other complaints about the 1200 was the action release lever was pretty small making it harder to use and on those guns without the heat shields, the front bead was also on the small side. Mossberg M590/M500 series. The Mossberg M590 for us was a lot more popular than the M1200 we carried. The ambidextrious safety was a benefit for left handers and the carrier that rode against the bottom of the bolt prevented any malfunctions caused by shells that didn't engage the shell latches. The action release was a lot larger than the 1200 making it easier to use if needed. On my personal M500, I did find that the safety lever cracked as time went by but a steel version from Brownells cured that problem with little effort. My Mossberg was for many years when I was farming my main shotgun for clearing blackbirds out of the sunflower fields and many, many, many cases of shells went through it without ever having a stoppage or malfunction. It's been said that the alloy reciever isn't as durable as the steel reciever of the M870 but with the number of rounds I've put down range with mine, I don't think this is really an issue especially when the locking block locks into the barrel extension rather than the reciever. Remington M870: We had a couple M870s with short barrels and top folding stocks when I was in the Marines but we seldom used them outside of guarding the Admiral for CINCSouth. My main military expereince with the M870 has been in the Air Force. Now while these are older shotguns, a recurring problem I have seen on a lot of them in the armory has been loose shell latches. Unlike the Mossberg with it's loose latches, the shell latches of the M870 are staked into the reciever (the ejector is also staked into the reciever as well) and over time, they loosen up and require staking again. There are some I have come across however that are almost out of room to have this option done again. If they run out of room, it's back to depot for that weapon and we have to get a new one and the old one is destroyed. The carrier is also solid and unlike the Mossberg rests at the bottom of the reciever when not lifting a shell into the chamber. Now if you have a weak right shell catch that will allow a shell to slip past it (or as what happened with one of my 870's during unloading where it slipped past my fingers somehow) the shell will get between the carrier and closed bolt. With solid carriers, the only way to get the shell out is to take apart the magazine tube to relieve the pressure and in some cases, remove the trigger assembly to get the offending shell out. After this happened on my personal M870, I dremel cut a slot about 3/4 of the length of the carrier so now when it happens again, I can push the shell back into the magazine tube with a knife blade or key. Now supposidly the newer carriers have a"flex tab" of sorts where if this happens you bang the butt on the ground and it will clear the weapon but I've never really seen this in action. As for the safety button, it's alright for right handed shooters but for left handed shooters, it can be a bit more of a challenge. The action bar release is also larger than the Mossberg or Winchester but it's position doesn't allow you to manipulate it without shifting your grip. Given the choice between the 3 shotguns, the Mossberg, Remington, and Winchester, my first choice would be the Mossberg. It's been dead relaible and durable in both my military and personal experinces. My next choice would be the Remington. It's a rugged and durable shotgun however, with the shell latches and ejector being staked in place I see this as an area that can cause problems when the stakes loosen up. Also, the solid shell carrier in earlier models can also cause problems if a shell slips past the latches. My last choice (and probably the reason I don't own one) is the Winchester. I just couldn't get used to the slide blowing back with the recoil and the small action bar release button. While none of the Winchesters I've fired had a problem with shells slipping past the shell latches, the solid carrier of the Winchesters also make me wonder if the same problem the Remington has of rounds between the bolt and carrier tying up the action would also apply here as well.