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Old September 28, 2016, 02:30 PM   #76
Jleonard
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That is your choice. Even if you are right and the chance of needing a gun is very low, the consequences of not having one are if needed are severe.

A person could use this same logic to suggest that a person could benefit from wearing a NASCAR helmet on their drive to work each day. Most people would agree that a traffic accident is probably the more likely danger vs a home invasion but how many people are wearing helmets while driving a car on the public roadway? Not any that I have ever seen.. why? It could be because of a relative risk assessment that indicates that the need is rather low.
It wasn't too long ago I upgraded to a truck with 4 wheel discs and airbags. That was done to mitigate risk.
To me that was a far greater risk than needing a firearm on my person at my home at all times.
We all can make our own assessments and they are all equally as valid in our own minds.
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Old September 28, 2016, 02:49 PM   #77
Glenn E. Meyer
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Equally valid in your mind is like Dirty Harry's quote about being a hero in your own mind.

Validity is empirical.

Anyway - everyone should make their own choice.

A point of personal privilege - everyone is welcome to refer to me as "Glenn". That is my name.

However, if you want to use a title or honorific, the correct usage is Dr. Meyer. Silly isn't - call me Glenn.
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Old September 28, 2016, 02:52 PM   #78
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We all can make our own assessments and they are all equally as valid in our own minds.
I very nice platitude, but it's kind of deceptive.

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In our own minds
That doesnt mean that it's correct to make assumptions about how good an idea is. Millions of people every day do things that they assume are risk free, or at least safe. Then they are arrested for shoplifting, overdose on meth, get arrested for having a .09 BAC, or even get whomped on the head after yelling "oakland sucks!" in the wrong bar.

Convincing yourself that your assessments are valid is step number one in getting your hind end kicked clean off of of the planet by fate. NASA assessments that they were safe resulted in 14 deaths.
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Old September 28, 2016, 02:57 PM   #79
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Dr Meyer (I'm going to have to go with Glenn because I am going to forget and screw this up) I agree that this should, in an ideal world, be tested. However you are encouraging testing of how long it takes to get to a firearm. My big question in the equation is how long it would take a mostly non-competent individual to force open a door. I don't want to test how much damage forcing one of my doors open would cause so I am forced to not actually test how much time it would take either.
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Old September 28, 2016, 03:05 PM   #80
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I think in the analysis you are overthinking the difference between a gun in a holster and a gun that can be accessed relatively quickly
I respect your opinion, even though I strongly disagree. You place a great deal of confidence in the security of your doors. I am not nearly as confident in mine. Not to mention windows that provide little real security. The difference between immediate access and "relatively" quick access is enough for me to choose to carry.
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Old September 28, 2016, 03:10 PM   #81
Lohman446
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I respect your opinion, even though I strongly disagree. You place a great deal of confidence in the security of your doors. I am not nearly as confident in mine. Not to mention windows that provide little real security. The difference between immediate access and "relatively" quick access is enough for me to choose to carry.
We might reach the same conclusion if I did not have a factor that is likely a non-factor for you. I have inquisitive and young children who like to roughhouse and I tend to be their favorite "target" While they are well behaved outside of the home the house is where they are pretty free to be children and run and play and roughhouse. I ditch my gun when inside because I figure it raises the risk of negligent discharge more than it would raises the chances of "winning" against a competent home invasion.
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Old September 28, 2016, 03:27 PM   #82
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Lohman I do have the same concerns when my grandchildren are visiting. Now that school is in session that doesn't happen nearly enough. I carry an LCP in a good pocket holster most of the time when they are here. The pocket of my jeans gives fairly easy access, but there is no chance of the gun coming out of my pocket or being fired during play or roughhousing. I am far more comfortable with the gun in my possession than locked up where I don't have immediate access.
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Old September 28, 2016, 03:35 PM   #83
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My .380 actually fits into my watch pocket.
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Old September 28, 2016, 04:23 PM   #84
Lohman446
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My .380 actually fits into my watch pocket.
Oh a .380. I thought we were talking about an ACTUAL GUN. I've been reading the caliber debates. Might as well chuck my steel water bottle at any invader. Probably as good as a .380 (is that the sarcasm symbol?)
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Old September 28, 2016, 04:50 PM   #85
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If it's full of holy water, at least you stand a chance in hell throwing it at the bad guy...
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Old September 28, 2016, 04:59 PM   #86
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Not to mention windows that provide little real security
Its also true that burglars and home invaders rarely enter a home through a broken window. Perhaps because:

Windows break and glass cuts
Breaking a window is messy business and its noisy
if seen entering a home through a window by a passerby or seen exiting a window by a passerby draws attention and is normally an instant "call the cops" moment.
Windows are typically 4 or 5 feet off the ground
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Old September 28, 2016, 05:21 PM   #87
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My windows are practically floor to ceiling , but still, you'd have to smash the storm windows out, break out the mullions of the sash windows, clear all of the glass, and then get on your knees to get through.

The sidelight windows are pretty much too thick to break. I could have replaced the hand turn deadbolt with a keyed one, but don't want to. The back door that has windows in it, hell no. It is a keyed lock, and rather than facing certain death by fire if that key is lost, well, I have a key on a retractable key chain near the door.

Something that has bothered me for years? When the house was built, they put in four windows in the basement. As they poured the foundation, which is one foot of poured concrete, not a bunch of cinder blocks, they installed one inch rebar burglar bars. four windows that we could escape through in an emergency, as long as I have a steel cutting saw, power, and a half hour. Someday, I'm going to get over my lack of common sense, cut them out, and replace them with a more sensible method.
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Old September 28, 2016, 05:28 PM   #88
Bartholomew Roberts
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My big question in the equation is how long it would take a mostly non-competent individual to force open a door.
Saw a CCTV video of a 15yr old who looked like a Buchenwald escapee kick in a deadbolted exterior door in under 30 seconds the other day. Luckily for the homeowner, he couldn't figure out the slot chain also on the door.
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Old September 28, 2016, 05:38 PM   #89
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thirty seconds is plenty of time to call in reinforcemnts, run the kids to the safe room, gather your preferred defensive tools, then sit down with a beer and yell at the guy "don't come in here, I'm armed!"

You won't have thirty seconds. Count on that. An ordinary thug can break through an ordinary door almost instantly, and a chain won't stop him. Get rid of the hollow door, buy a long throw bolt, get reinforcing strike plates. You can make your door safe, anyone who tries to come through a window will have to do it carefully and it will take time. Don't let your home be one of the ones that can be entered by a couple of punks in a matter of two well placed kicks.

A deputy here was part of a swat raid. Bashing the back door with his shotgun but failed. so he shot it. Tagged the peckerhead that was hiding behind the curtain with shrapnel. It's a good kind of hurt, tex.
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Old September 28, 2016, 07:44 PM   #90
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It wont be such an easy entry point if you:


Use hardwood door jambs that are well anchored to dual studs.

Use a 24-36" strike plate that is also anchored to the studs

Anchor the hinges to the studs

Use a heavy solid door

Use the best locks/knobs you can afford
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Old September 28, 2016, 07:48 PM   #91
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Carrying a gun all your waking hours and doing nothing to reinforce a door is a mysterious combination to me.
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Old September 29, 2016, 06:39 AM   #92
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re you nuts? Why would you choose to leave it unlocked when it's so simple to close and lock it?

This is the very simplest, and absolutely necessary step. Your door should be locked at every second that you aren't standing right next to it. Why not? I leave my home, I lock it. I come home and enter, and I lock it. If I let my dog out, he's SOL if the zombies hit, because I lock the door again.
I guess I might be nuts, however at 64 years old I have proven I am not.
If someone decides to "break in" at least I don't have to fix the door.

Now you're gonna flip out because I normally leave my keys in the cup holder when my truck is parked in the driveway. Unless I am leaving for the weekend, etc.
Same thing at work, keys are in the truck.
I honestly hate carrying keys around.
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Old September 29, 2016, 08:20 AM   #93
FireForged
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By Lohman446-Carrying a gun all your waking hours and doing nothing to reinforce a door is a mysterious combination to me.
I agree.. but there are some people who just want to carry a gun and are not really interested in understanding personal safety methodology.
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Old September 29, 2016, 09:07 AM   #94
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16, 64. 100, it doesn't matter how old you are, you've chosen to do things that invite trouble. The only places on this planet that would be safe to leave your door unlocked and keys in the car would be chernobyl, antarctica, the "empty quarter" of saudi arabia, etc.

Just because you're 64 and haven't died of cancer doesn't mean that it can't happen. Not so long ago, a guy who lived off of the main roads over here was murdered in his home, no obvious motive, no suspects. Another guy off road here woke up one morning and found a dead guy posed on his front yard. Of course, pictures were on facebook of the body being dumped.

There isn't anywhere in populated america that's safe enough to do something like that. Do you remember a while back when a cow got into someone's cabin and died, then they had to chainsaw the thing into pieces to get it out? He should have locked his door.
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Old September 29, 2016, 09:23 AM   #95
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I guess I might be nuts, however at 64 years old I have proven I am not.
If someone decides to "break in" at least I don't have to fix the door.

Now you're gonna flip out because I normally leave my keys in the cup holder when my truck is parked in the driveway. Unless I am leaving for the weekend, etc.
Same thing at work, keys are in the truck.
I honestly hate carrying keys around.
I'm glad you have made it through life so far and it's great that you can feel that safe, but keep in mind old guys are easy targets in the criminal mind. Not that 64 is old (lol), but you are getting there and hopefully many more happy years. Don't be that elderly man on the news that became a victim just because he was an easy target.
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Old September 29, 2016, 09:37 AM   #96
armedleo
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Being home and on your own land gives us a false sense of security.

Every time this subject is mentioned I think back to a Lt. I worked for whose Dad got murdered while he was mowing the front yard of his home in a relatively quiet and peaceful neighborhood.

Two punks walked up to him while he was cutting the yard and he stopped the mower to see what they wanted. They wanted a glass of water. Telling them he's in the middle of cutting the yard, he bent over to crank over the motor. The motor started and as he stood up one of the punks shot him in the chest. He would later die a lingering death as a result of the gunshot. No arrests ever made. Tragic and senseless.
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Old September 29, 2016, 09:44 AM   #97
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Telling them he's in the middle of cutting the yard, he bent over to crank over the motor. The motor started and as he stood up one of the punks shot him in the chest.
I know we all make mistakes but having a gun on your person would not have changed the likely outcome of this situation. If you lack situational awareness and/or some type of effective perimeter having a gun on your person is not likely to overcome that.
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Old September 29, 2016, 09:51 AM   #98
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Carrying a gun all your waking hours and doing nothing to reinforce a door is a mysterious combination to me.
And you accuse me of using straw.

Your above statement is a non sequitur. There is no post on this thread that suggests having good solid outside doors with good locking hardware is not a good idea or has not been done. I do not necessarily support walled security, razor wire, moats, or claymores though. Your conclusion, and FireForged's is not supported by this thread. The idea that having reinforced doors protects you from harm when at home is not supported. I will continue to carry at home regardless of the strength of my doors. For me it only makes sense.

Give me one credible example of a dangerous encounter of any kind with a 2 or 4 legged predator(s) on your premises where having a gun at hand is not preferable to having to run to the safe to get one. Your insistence that carrying a gun properly secured on you is a danger to you and yours is also not supported.

I don't really care whether you, or anyone else carries a gun at home. I do. Do I really need to justify that here?
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Old September 29, 2016, 09:53 AM   #99
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I think that the clutter family demonstrates that even back in the safe and healthy 1950s it was a very bad idea to leave a door unlocked.

As I said before, what the heck? it takes no time at all and no effort whatsoever to lock the door as you come in or out.

Quote:
After driving more than four hundred miles across the state of Kansas on the evening of November 14, Hickock and Smith arrived in Holcomb, located the Clutter home, and entered through an unlocked door while the family slept. Upon rousing the Clutters and discovering there was no safe, they bound and gagged the family and continued to search for money, but found little else of value in the house. Still determined to leave no witnesses, the pair briefly debated what to do; Smith, notoriously unstable and prone to violent acts in fits of rage, slit Herb Clutter's throat and then shot him in the head. ]
If you don't like carrying keys around, well, I can't help you.
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Old September 29, 2016, 10:05 AM   #100
Lohman446
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I don't really care whether you, or anyone else carries a gun at home. I do. Do I really need to justify that here?
No you do not have to justify it. These discussions are not intended as personal attacks though sometimes we (well at least I) mistakenly take them as such. We are discussing the value of having a gun on your person at all waking hours. I'll give you that it has a defensive value.

However when at home inside your house on my chart of how much defensive value it gives you its pretty low... There is a cut-off line that we all draw somewhere (assuming you do not have Secret Service type protection) because it is a necessity of life to occasionally do things that make you less secure than you would be if you did not do them (showering and sleeping come to mind).

My chart (when inside my house) goes something like this:

Situational awareness - are you aware of what is going on around you?

A plan (I still say this is slightly different than situational awareness) -

Plan B

Plan C

Closed doors

Locked doors

Secured or hard to access windows

Reinforced doors

A readily available weapon

Competency with the above

A readily available firearm (preferably a long gun)

Competency with the above

.
.
.
.

A gun secured in immediate access on your person


For various reasons I draw the line above the "gun secured in immediate access on your person" While we may all disagree with some of the things on this list there are a lot of things more important then a gun on your person (I am not intending to argue you are not aware of this).

I am willing to bet that many more people have a firearm then have reinforced doors. Hence my comment about the mysterious nature to me about it.
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