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View Poll Results: Which is more effective in modern urban combat: the ASSAULT RIFLE, or the SHOTGUN?
Assault Rifle 82 56.16%
Shotgun 64 43.84%
Voters: 146. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 6, 2006, 02:01 PM   #76
David Armstrong
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Only because rifle armed comrades are with you to back up or cover up its long range deficiencies.
That's a nice thought, but is fairly irrelevant. It is sort of like saying a rifle platoon is only effective because they can call for air and artillery support. The shotgun does a fine job all by itself as an urban combat weapon. That was the question. All this other nonsense is just that, nonsense. If you can't handle a shotgun to the best of its abilities, go with the rifle. That is the common denominator one-size-fits-all default. A man with a good shotgun and good training rules his environment within 100 meters, which is a fair range for urban combat.
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Change the analogy to a bad guy armed with a rifle at 50 yards and either the inability to hit or the ill effects of those hits (from buckshot) can and should be considered a drawback.
You make two rather questionable assumptions. One is that there would be an inability to hit, and the other is that if hit the effect would be poor. Neither of those is a problem in my experience. And as always, if you don't like using buck, select a slug. Very easy to do, very effective, solves both issues.
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Still doesn't make the shotgun's long range performance any better
Only needs to be better if that matters. For typical urban combat scenarios, the effective range of the shotgun is quite sufficient, and its performance at shorter, more common ranges, is superior in the hands of properly trained and equipped individuals.
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Old December 6, 2006, 03:49 PM   #77
threegun
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A man with a good shotgun and good training rules his environment within 100 meters
We must agree to disagree. One might rule at 35 possibly 50 yards against exposed critters, in moderate numbers, and without body armor. Anytime slugs are used the shotgun becomes a crappy rifle. The rifle, in trained hands is good, both close and afar, against body armor, against small targets, etc. The rifle is faster to reload and allows the user to carry more ammo for the weight.

The shoot out in LA should convince all but the hardest nuts that the shotgun is not the best tool for urban fighting (unless several parameters are assured). No body armor, close ranges, and while using buckshot.
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Old December 6, 2006, 06:05 PM   #78
David Armstrong
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We must agree to disagree. One might rule at 35 possibly 50 yards against exposed critters, in moderate numbers, and without body armor. Anytime slugs are used the shotgun becomes a crappy rifle.
As happens so often during discussions like this, one should not attempt to brush everyone else with their own inadequecies and incompetence. The fact that you are unable to maximize the abilities of the shotgun does not in any way diminish the abilities of the shotgun, but instead reflects on your level of competence, or lack thereof. By your own admission you have never had any formal training in this area, so the fact that you can't do it means very little, IMO.
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The shoot out in LA should convince all but the hardest nuts that the shotgun is not the best tool for urban fighting
Actually what LA shows us is that any weapon has limitations. Some have pointed out that a Ruger 10/22 in the right hands would have ended the fight early on. That doesn't mean it is a good choice for that.
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Old December 6, 2006, 09:12 PM   #79
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Some have pointed out that a Ruger 10/22 in the right hands would have ended the fight early on.
A Ruger 10/22 is a rifle, not a shotgun, right?
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Old December 6, 2006, 09:58 PM   #80
'75Scout
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I would choose the "Assualt Rifle" although I wouldn't choose a full-auto rifle. I would pick either a high end AK (like and Arsenal or Vepr) or the M1A Socom 16. I am not a big fan of the .223 cartridge. The 7.62 rounds will penetrate barriers better, which I would be likely to encounter. I could carry more ammo than with a shotgun and have a longer time between reloads.

With that in mind I have a Remington 870 18.5" barrel that I use for Home Defense. It's a slick gun that shoots really well. With the Knoxx Compstock and rifle sights I can easily put a 1oz slug COM at 50 yards. I am confident I can defend myself adequately with it and it sure as heck didn't cost me the $1600 the Socom 16 would.
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Old December 7, 2006, 06:11 AM   #81
threegun
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As happens so often during discussions like this, one should not attempt to brush everyone else with their own inadequecies and incompetence.
David, Once again you break out the insults. I won't bite this time. I will simply say that you are incorrect in believing that the shotgun is a better choice at ranges over 35 yards. In fact you yourself believe that the slug should be used past 10 yards.....
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Why? At 10 yards the slug is the round of choice for the shotgun.
......making it a rifle and a poor rifle at that. I would agree with you that the shotgun can, has, and will eliminate threats at 50 -100 yards.........if they remain erect and facing you thereby providing you that perfect silhouette you are so use to practicing on (or maybe even those deer you discuss harvesting). However we cannot expect a foe capable of employing tactics to stand erect. We cannot expect them to even expose more than a muzzle and eyeball. If you can hit an eyeball @ 100 yards with a slug (consistently) you are better than anyone I have ever seen. A rifle can do it all, not quite as good close up but far superior at distance and in firepower.

Again I offer you the opportunity to compete at the next Threegun match in this area. We can see just how inadequate or incompetent I am.
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Old December 7, 2006, 03:24 PM   #82
David Armstrong
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A Ruger 10/22 is a rifle, not a shotgun, right?
Yes. Would you suggest it as good selection for urban combat?
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Old December 7, 2006, 03:32 PM   #83
SpK
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Yes. Would you suggest it as good selection for urban combat?
A Ruger 10/22 does not match the definition for an assault rifle.
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Old December 7, 2006, 03:36 PM   #84
Capt. Charlie
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I think I'm gonna faint from shock if one of these debates fades out quietly instead of biting the bullet for personal attacks.

It sure ain't gonna happen with this one.

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