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Old July 15, 2019, 07:28 AM   #26
Road_Clam
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I have both , a G22 in .40 S&W and the Kimber Target II LS in 10mm handload for both as well. My G22 even shooting mild loads , 180gr @ 880 fps is my least liked handgun. Pretty fierce and snappy recoil. Proficient follow up shots are a challenge. No way would i have any desire to make a snappy recoiling handgun shoot more snappy. My Kimber is pushing a 180gr bullet at 1230 fps, and its a 1911 long slide platform. A very well mannered shooting gun. Its definately got some elevated recoil but the Kimber is a heavy gun, thus absorbing a good amount of recoil. As ive stated many times, i got no desire to load everything "hot" i keep all my guns within reasonable pressures and intended usages.
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Old July 15, 2019, 10:08 AM   #27
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I recently bought a police surplus G22 Gen4, and have made a range visit, using three types of factory ammo.
I found recoil to be quite negligeable, really a non-issue. Maybe it’s the Gen4 recoil spring. I liked shooting it so much, that it has been my home defense pistol since, loaded with HST 180gn.
Hard for me to imagine anyone complaining about G22 recoil, but then, I shot 44mag in my youth, and still shoot 357mag in a 3” GP100.
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Old July 15, 2019, 10:21 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Dufus View Post
It appears to me that we are talking about making hand grenades by taking a cartridge outside of its design range.
Nope. See post #9.
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Old July 15, 2019, 10:23 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Marco Califo View Post
I think blowing up a 40, trying for it to be a 10mm, is not the best rationalizion for buying the 10mm you think you want.
Longshot powder will get you best performance in either.
I recommend that you test fire a 10mm. In the Glock Compact G29 some people do not like the hand twisting recoil in a smaller (than a 1911) gun.
The load pressure is within SAAMI specs. Nothing will blow up.
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Old July 15, 2019, 10:33 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
I went back though the thread, I can find where the OP talks about the powder TYPE, the bullet, his gun, the velocity of a "published load" and the pressure of that load being within SAAMI specs, but I cannot find where he says what the load IS (charge weight).

If its in there, would someone please point it out to me?

Because, otherwise, we really don't know exactly what he's talking about.

Do we??
Ramshot's old load data with Enforcer for 40 S&W with 165 grain bullets is:

165 Montana Gold FMJ loaded to 1.130 and 14.5 grains of Enforcer. Velocity is 1,253, pressure = 28,912 psi.

165 Montana Gold JHP loaded to 1.130 and 15.1 grains of Enforcer. Velocity is 1,277, pressure = 30,279 psi.

165 Speer GDHP loaded to 1.135 and 15.0 grains of Enforcer. Velocity is 1,308, pressure = 31,790 psi.

Winchester brass, Winchester magnum small pistol primer, 4.0" barrel.
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Old July 15, 2019, 10:38 AM   #31
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You could do it if the pressure is safe for your gun, drop back 10% and work up slowly.

You probably shouldn't do it as the .40 S&W uses a long bullet for its short case, in its early life there was a problem with pressure spikes caused by bullet setback, that resulted in Kabooms. If you get into compressed load territory with that powder a small amount of bullet setback could spike pressures way beyond what the gun can take.

JMHO YMMV.
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Old July 15, 2019, 10:46 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Master Blaster View Post
You could do it if the pressure is safe for your gun, drop back 10% and work up slowly.

You probably shouldn't do it as the .40 S&W uses a long bullet for its short case, in its early life there was a problem with pressure spikes caused by bullet setback, that resulted in Kabooms. If you get into compressed load territory with that powder a small amount of bullet setback could spike pressures way beyond what the gun can take.

JMHO YMMV.
Please demonstrate that will happen with Enforcer.

Compressed loads tend to not suffer setback because the compressed powder prevents it.
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Old July 15, 2019, 11:01 AM   #33
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Please demonstrate that will happen with Enforcer.

Compressed loads tend to not suffer setback because the compressed powder prevents it.
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Please demonstrate that it will not happen!!!

Thanks
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Old July 15, 2019, 11:05 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Master Blaster View Post
Please demonstrate that it will not happen!!!

Thanks
If you say something will happen, you have the burden of proof.
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Old July 15, 2019, 12:10 PM   #35
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what's the burden of proof if you say something could happen?

Not "will" but could, may, might, and so on?

thank you 74A95 for posting some actual loads that can be examined and researched, not a vague "its a published load and does this...."

I am not particularly in awe of the claim "it's published data". This is the 21st century, literally anyone can publish anything. Making a claim that it is published data is worth as much as "it must be true, I read it on the Internet".

Saying who published it, where, and when adds tremendous credibility, as we may then, on our own, if desired, confirm it, and form our own opinions of the reliability of the source.

Which brings us back to making a claim and providing proof. With some claims, providing proof (or the location where such proof will be found) is necessary to convince others of the validity of your statement. In other cases, I think its entirely apt (though a bit rude) to basically say "Sod off! Go and look for yourself!"

Reminds me of the truism, "if you say there are a billion stars in the night sky, people will nod and agree with you, but if you say "WET PAINT" they have to TOUCH IT!"
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Old July 15, 2019, 12:30 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post

Which brings us back to making a claim and providing proof. With some claims, providing proof (or the location where such proof will be found) is necessary to convince others of the validity of your statement. In other cases, I think its entirely apt (though a bit rude) to basically say "Sod off! Go and look for yourself!"
You've posted this before and it's been debunked. If you claim something, you have the burden of truth. Claims that are made without evidence are as easily dismissed (Hitchens's razor).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor

"Hitchens's razor is an epistemological razor asserting that the burden of proof regarding the truthfulness of a claim lies with the one who makes the claim; if this burden is not met, then the claim is unfounded, and its opponents need not argue further in order to dismiss it. "
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Old July 15, 2019, 01:12 PM   #37
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I've said it, or similar things before, and I don't consider it "debunked".

I consider "burden of proof" to be a very situational thing, dependent on the claims made and the situation they are made it. Our legal system has multiple levels of "burden of proof" that vary with the situation.

Debating society rules are another situation. All are valid in their specific circumstances.

You may use Hitchen's razor as justification to deny a claim, and be correct in some situations. You can use Occam's razor to deny or accept a claim and be correct in some situations. Having a full beard, I haven't touched any kind of razor in years.

interesting subject, but we're seriously drifting from the OP, (and I'm partly to blame) so continued discussion on burden of proof should go to PM or its own thread.

getting back to the idea of getting 10mm velocity levels from a .40S&W, most powders won't do it within industry standard pressures. The OP says there is one powder that will do it, BUT the people who make that powder are not supporting that claim.

IF the claim is valid, factual, WHY aren't the people who make the powder shouting its "advantages" from the virtual rooftops???

Or ANYONE else doing it, other than the OP??

What might the reason(s) be??
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Old July 15, 2019, 01:59 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post

getting back to the idea of getting 10mm velocity levels from a .40S&W, most powders won't do it within industry standard pressures. The OP says there is one powder that will do it, BUT the people who make that powder are not supporting that claim. Yes, they are supporting that claim. They tested it and published it. They are the ones who made the claim in the first place.

IF the claim is valid, factual, (see red text above) WHY aren't the people who make the powder shouting its "advantages" from the virtual rooftops???

Or ANYONE else doing it, other than the OP?? I don't know, how many 40 S&W shooters have you asked? I'm guessing none.

What might the reason(s) be??
Ramshot stopped publishing their Enforcer data for the 45 Auto because they felt the powder was not efficient in the 45. They didn't think it was unsafe, only inefficient. That information is here: https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...e-45-acp/99214

I asked Ramshot about Enforcer in the 10mm back in 2016. They said they have changed their policy towards highly compressed powder. "That is way (sic) there is no load data for the .40 S&W and 10mm using Ramshot Enforcer. With these powders you have to have load densities (case fill) that are well over 115% just too barely come to pressure."
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Old July 15, 2019, 04:30 PM   #39
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Many years ago I came to the conclusion that any big game rifle I owned would have to consistently shoot groups of 1.5" or less, preferably less. If it was a rifle I was particularly fond of I would work until I decided it would never shoot within the parameters I set. One such rifle was my Ruger M77 RSI in .308 Win. I won't go into the details of the slightly over two years struggle to it to shoot 1.5" groups but I was successful so I still have that rifle. In fact I got it down to a sometimes 1.25" shooter.

Most of my rifles will shoot one inch or slightly less but I constantly tinker with the loads looking for that ever smaller group. I do that mostly because it's fun and what more reason does one need than that?
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Old July 15, 2019, 10:55 PM   #40
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Yes, they are supporting that claim. They tested it and published it. They are the ones who made the claim in the first place.
ok, I see your point here, and that they no longer publish that data, because they choose not to, because it is inefficient and over compressed??

Quote:
Or ANYONE else doing it, other than the OP??

I don't know, how many 40 S&W shooters have you asked? I'm guessing none
None would be the answer, as what I was asking is why no one else was shouting the advantages from the virtual rooftops, not if anyone else was loading that powder in their .40s.

I don't have a dog in this fight, I don't have a .40 nor a S&W M&P nor have I ever used Ramshot powder (of any kind). I'm just trying to follow what is going on and why, if the load is so great why its not in current published data, and why no one else is saying the things the OP is saying.

I do understand how these kinds of things can happen though. A powder maker makes a decision for commercial reasons which is not always sensible seeming.

Some time back, the people making Blue Dot stopped listing loads for the .41 mag. Said the powder wasn't suitable, if I remember right. Having used Blue Dot in .357 and .44 Mag, there's no way you can convince me it won't work / be safe (in the proper loads) in the .41 Mag.

According to the rumor mill, Blue Dot wasn't "suitable" because of variations greater than desired, in the .41 Mag. I have no idea what the truth really was, but it seems we have something somewhat similar here. For whatever reason, apparently they did list the data, but no longer do.

for the OP, or anyone else loading Enforcer in the .40 I am curious, can you get 15gr in the case without special techniques? Does it fill the case to the mouth? Do you need a long drop tube, and/or vibration in order to get it all in?
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Old July 15, 2019, 11:54 PM   #41
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The obsolete load data being discussed can be viewed here:
http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Fre...M/ramshot.html
Look in Ramshot Edition #2 page 17. 12.7 grains of Enforcer 1152 fps

Those 1150-ish velocities are replicated by non-compressed Hodgdon Longshot powder. I bought Longshot for this reason. In 40 S&W 8.0 grains of Longshot will give you 1159 fps with Hornady 40XTC.
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

So:
1. Thread title is false, you cannot load 40 S&W to 10mm level.
2. OP's Question is "why don't people use obsolete load data (that was his pet load, and it got depublished)?
2. Answers:
>1. The load data was depublished.
>2. They are not idiots that want to go way off in the weeds and play with matches.
>3. They know Longshot and its published data makes this discussion obsolete.

Finally, a couple of observations:
1. Enforcer published loads in obsolete Edition 2, are all revolver major cartridges, except for the foray into 40 SW and a couple 45 ACP. Revolvers and autoloaders have different needs and performance issues. Most promontory is auto loads must cycle the pistol, this is not a requirement for revolvers.
2. Longshot is a shotgun powder that happens to have an excellent sweet spot for 40 SW and 10mm handguns. Further, these velocities are not matched by any other U.S. powders. The differential is about 110 fps for the same bullet and powder 40SW versus 10mm.
3. This thread reminds me of the Monty Python skit about the "argument shop". Specifically there was no actual content. I personally believe this thread has run its course, and should be locked.
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Old July 15, 2019, 11:58 PM   #42
74A95
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Here's a picture of 15.0 grains of Enforcer in a 40 S&W case. There is about 0.160" of empty space between the top of the powder and case mouth.





Load density is not a measure of whether the powder is spilling over the case mouth if load density is greater than 100%.

Load density measures the space between the top of the powder fill to the bottom of the bullet when the bullet is seated to the recommended OAL. A 99% load density means that when the bullet is seated there is still 1% of empty space in the case under the bullet, i.e. the powder is not compressed. A 100% load density means there is no empty space between the powder and the bullet when the bullet is seated to the recommended OAL. The powder is still not compressed, but is in contact with the bullet. A 101% load density means that the powder is now starting to be compressed when the bullet is seated to the recommended OAL.

In the 40 S&W example, based on my crude measurement, the bullet can be pushed into the case 0.16" and then be called a 100% load density.
Pushing the bullet farther will make the load density go above 100% because now the powder is being compressed. Got it?
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Old July 16, 2019, 12:07 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Califo View Post
The obsolete load data being discussed can be viewed here:
http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Fre...M/ramshot.html
Look in Ramshot Edition #2 page 17. 12.7 grains of Enforcer 1152 fps

Those 1150-ish velocities are replicated by non-compressed Hodgdon Longshot powder. I bought Longshot for this reason. In 40 S&W 8.0 grains of Longshot will give you 1159 fps with Hornady 40XTC.
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
You're looking at the wrong data. The OP specifically stated it was a 165 grain bullet at 1300 fps.

Hodgdon's Longshot data stops just shy of 1200 fps for a 165 grain bullet.
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Old July 16, 2019, 07:02 AM   #44
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Assuming the powder hasn't changed, it's still a safe load. But with Western no longer publishing the data, most reloaders will look elsewhere for their recipes.
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Old July 16, 2019, 05:44 PM   #45
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I have shot the 8 grain LONGSHOT loads in my M&P 40 exactly 100 times. That is how many 180g HAP bullets are in a box. My M&P survived the ordeal and even shoots hot 357 SIG without too much complaining.

After loading the .40 to such levels and shooting 100 of them, I won't do it again. It WILL beat the crap out of the gun. Different powder, even a nice slow burner like ENFORCER isn't going to change the laws of Physics.

Get a 10mm if you want/need 10mm power. (Or better yet 357 Mag) As an aside; many states will not allow hunting with any type of non-expanding bullets. Just FYI.
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Old July 19, 2019, 07:36 PM   #46
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Ran a couple of test 40 S&W loads. It was hard to seat the bullet to the suggested OAL because Enforcer does not like to be compressed. Loads were fired from a 5" Ed Brown barrel.

165 Zero FMJ @ 1.170" OAL, WSPM primer, 15.0 gr Enforcer = 1293 fps.

165 Montana Gold JHP @ 1.200" OAL, CCI 500 primer, 15.0 gr Enforcer = 1212 fps.
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Old July 20, 2019, 10:24 AM   #47
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The only kabooms I've ever seen were 40 cal. Glocks....................................We assumed fired out of battery. The gun was not destroyed, blew the extractor, maybe the magazine, I don't remember the details.
As long as the powder mfg. blesses the load you are prolly Okay.
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Old July 20, 2019, 12:00 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 74A95


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Ran a couple of test 40 S&W loads. It was hard to seat the bullet to the suggested OAL because Enforcer does not like to be compressed. Loads wetre fired from a 5" Ed Brown barrel.

165 Zero FMJ @ 1.170" OAL, WSPM primer, 15.0 gr Enforcer = 1293 fps.

165 Montana Gold JHP @ 1.200" OAL, CCI 500 primer, 15.0 gr Enforcer = 1212 fps.
Thank you for trying this! ( my reloading gear is in storage right now).

Whose brass? Starline was used in the published data.

But the published data velocities were with a 4" barrel. Your data makes me think 1300+fps is not possible.

Last edited by totaldla; July 20, 2019 at 12:15 PM.
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Old July 20, 2019, 12:28 PM   #49
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40S+W

Buy a 10mm and forget about tyrying to make one gun shoot 2 cartridges...especially one that the gun was not made to fire.

Need a woods gun, buy a woods gun and be confident with that gun.

My woods handgun has been a S+W mod 57 (41mag) for the last 30 years and same has never failed to drop what I aimed at. Use 220gr cast lead with proper BHN as regards velocity of the load.
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Old July 20, 2019, 01:55 PM   #50
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Buy a 10mm and forget about tyrying to make one gun shoot 2 cartridges...especially one that the gun was not made to fire.
I'm pretty sure his gun was made for 40 S&W. I'm pretty sure the load is for 40 S&W. I don't see a problem with using 40 S&W load data for a 40 S&W pistol.
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