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Old July 15, 2019, 11:14 AM   #1
Calfed
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Reloading for the Swedish AG 42 Ljungman

My sons and I shoot in a semi-monthly semi auto military silhouette match. We usually shoot Ljungmans, but occasionally will use a Hakim or Garand.




I've been using 36 grains of IMR 4064/140 gr Nosler Custom Competition
I'm also hitting about 5" above point of aim @ 100 yards with this load. My point of aim is 6 o'clock "pumpkin on a post". Both our Ljungmans have the +0.5 front sight.

Usually have a nice group and a flyer. This is typical...

[/QUOTE]

Recently began to refine my Ljungman loads. I reduced the powder charge from 36.0 to 34.5 grs of 4064, with Nosler 140 gr CC bullets, Prvi brass, CCI 34 primers, OAL 3.015. This shrank my groups a bit. It also tamed the extraction/ejection sequence a bit.

5 shot groups @ 100 yards




Last edited by Calfed; July 15, 2019 at 05:34 PM.
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Old July 16, 2019, 12:02 PM   #2
T. O'Heir
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34.5 grains of IMR4064 is .5 below minimum for a 140. Won't be enough to cause any grief, but it's still below minimum. Do not make up your own data. Even though there's a marked reduction in group size.
3.015" is 15 thou short too. And CCI #34 primers are just magnum primers. IMR4064 doesn't need magnum primers. Using 'em won't bother anything though.
Hornady makes an ELD Match and a Match in a 140 grain .264". My '03A4 really likes their Match bullets with IMR4064. Might even be less expensive than the No$lers.
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Old July 16, 2019, 12:57 PM   #3
Calfed
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Thanks, T.O.

IMR 4064 loading data for 6.5 x 55 Swede with the 140 gr bullets is hard to come by. Many manuals have no 4064 data in that caliber for heavy bullets. My Sierra manual is one of the few and it lists 34.1 as a minimum load, so I knew I was skating on the edge with 34.5grs. Can you provide any other sources for 4064 load data in the Swede Mauser?

Most reloading manuals list slower burning powders for 6.5 Swede in the heavy bullet loadings. I've tried the slower burning powders, but like the Garand, the Ljungman seems to like the medium burning powders better from an operational standpoint.

I knew I was going a little low on COL and my only defense is that I wanted to make sure that the cartridge seated fully when the bolt closed.

I'd heard that the #34 primers had a harder "cup" to resist ignition from a floating firing pin in semi auto rifles. Not sure that is true or not, but that is why I use them in all my semi auto surplus rifle.

I'll look into those Hornady bullets. I've used the Hornady .3105" bullets in my Finnish Mosins and they love them.

Again, thanks for the feedback. I'm always looking for additional information, particularly on reloading.
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Old July 16, 2019, 01:37 PM   #4
Jim Watson
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A handbook starting load is not necessarily a "minimum" load. Most of the IMRs faster than 4350 are pretty flexible.
If it functions your automatic, and shoots accurately, it need not be messed with.
Also, 15 thou on OAL of a light load is peanuts. See above.
I don't know the firing pin design of the Swede but again, a military primer seems a reasonable precaution. Is there a mark if you extract an unfired round? See above.
Empiricism rules.

A friend has a SAFN 7mm. We never did get that thing to run on reloads, no matter the grade or amount of powder, case sizing or the bullet choice. He finally gave up and bought a supply of FN manufactured "Cartuchos Ordinarios" which are 100%.
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Old July 16, 2019, 10:15 PM   #5
Calfed
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Quote:
A handbook starting load is not necessarily a "minimum" load. Most of the IMRs faster than 4350 are pretty flexible.
If it functions your automatic, and shoots accurately, it need not be messed with.
Also, 15 thou on OAL of a light load is peanuts. See above.
I don't know the firing pin design of the Swede but again, a military primer seems a reasonable precaution. Is there a mark if you extract an unfired round? See above.
Empiricism rules.

A friend has a SAFN 7mm. We never did get that thing to run on reloads, no matter the grade or amount of powder, case sizing or the bullet choice. He finally gave up and bought a supply of FN manufactured "Cartuchos Ordinarios" which are 100%.
Thanks, Jim.

I have noted a light ding on the primer of rounds that I've unchambered without firing.

Sure sorry to hear about your friends Venezuelan FN 49...I have one and am hoping that it will operate well.
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Old July 18, 2019, 08:33 AM   #6
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Calfed,

There seems to be some misinformation here. I will move this thread to the Handloading forum where you will get more and better input along with the sharf.

To start:

Data is available on Hodgdon's site for the 140 grain Speer Soft Point and IMR4064. This data is developed with reference powder that represents the average tolerance values for the powder, so it is a good source.

In a telephone conversation with CCI, they explained the CCI #34 is identical to the CCI 250 magnum primer (same cup, same priming compound) except the anvil is made with a wider included angle between its legs, making it shorter and less rigid. The result is it requires a more energetic firing pin strike than is needed for a 250. This is a match to the U.S. Military primer sensitivity specification, which calls for higher firing energy (25 oz-in average) than most commercial primers do. The anvil alteration also shortens the primer slightly so that if you use the standard reconsolidation specification (seating for 0.003" anvil crush past the point where the anvil feet first touch the bottom of the primer pocket), you will have a primer slightly more deeply recessed below the case head than the commercial version would be.

The seating depth and the lowered sensitivity of the #34 both reduce the probability of a slamfire with a floating firing pin gun. However, a look at the manual for the AG 42 Ljungman indicates it has a firing pin spring and not a floating firing pin, so you need to use anything other than a standard commercial primers in it (unless you just don't want to buy different primers from those you use in your Garand, which has a floating firing pin). You can tell by ejecting a self-loaded round and looking for a small firing pin mark on the primer. If it has one, use the #34's. If it doesn't, use whatever produces the best accuracy and you will suffer no deficit in safety.

Mr. O'Heir is misinformed about length. The SAAMI drawing (page 41, here) calls for COL anywhere between 2.75" and 3.150". The Hodgdon data he is drawing on uses a Speer 140 grain Softpoint seated to 3.030" COL, so it is specific to that bullet and load data, not your bullet. That bullet is 0.15" shorter than yours is. The facts that you are seating shorter than Hodgdon and you are using a 0.15" longer bullet increases your loading density and peak pressure to (only just) exceed what the Hodgdon 35 grain minimum load produces with the 140 grain Speer soft point loaded to 3.030" COL, so you are doing just fine. QuickLOAD shows you would match their starting pressure at 34.35 grains. So you are pretty neatly right where your starting load should be and getting 0.6% better loading density than the Hodgdon load and bullet combination has.
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Old July 18, 2019, 01:11 PM   #7
zeke
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Excellent shooting with open sights and old battle rifle, and appreciate the load info. Maybe one day will actually fire the one sitting in storage.
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Old August 2, 2019, 12:50 AM   #8
Calfed
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Got out to Sac Valley Shooting Center this week and spent some time with some rifles, including my second Ljungman. Shot it at 200 yards, with the following results...

@200 yards, as usual, decent group and a flyer. Main group about 3" or 1.5 MOA, with the flyer, about 4.75" The sights were off, obviously. I was able to adjust them and got them pretty well centered.


@200 yds, the main group was 2.5", or about 1.25 MOA. With the flyer, about 5" or 2.5 MOA.
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Old August 2, 2019, 10:27 AM   #9
Calfed
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Quote:
Calfed,

There seems to be some misinformation here. I will move this thread to the Handloading forum where you will get more and better input along with the sharf.

To start:

Data is available on Hodgdon's site for the 140 grain Speer Soft Point and IMR4064. This data is developed with reference powder that represents the average tolerance values for the powder, so it is a good source.

In a telephone conversation with CCI, they explained the CCI #34 is identical to the CCI 250 magnum primer (same cup, same priming compound) except the anvil is made with a wider included angle between its legs, making it shorter and less rigid. The result is it requires a more energetic firing pin strike than is needed for a 250. This is a match to the U.S. Military primer sensitivity specification, which calls for higher firing energy (25 oz-in average) than most commercial primers do. The anvil alteration also shortens the primer slightly so that if you use the standard reconsolidation specification (seating for 0.003" anvil crush past the point where the anvil feet first touch the bottom of the primer pocket), you will have a primer slightly more deeply recessed below the case head than the commercial version would be.

The seating depth and the lowered sensitivity of the #34 both reduce the probability of a slamfire with a floating firing pin gun. However, a look at the manual for the AG 42 Ljungman indicates it has a firing pin spring and not a floating firing pin, so you need to use anything other than a standard commercial primers in it (unless you just don't want to buy different primers from those you use in your Garand, which has a floating firing pin). You can tell by ejecting a self-loaded round and looking for a small firing pin mark on the primer. If it has one, use the #34's. If it doesn't, use whatever produces the best accuracy and you will suffer no deficit in safety.

Mr. O'Heir is misinformed about length. The SAAMI drawing (page 41, here) calls for COL anywhere between 2.75" and 3.150". The Hodgdon data he is drawing on uses a Speer 140 grain Softpoint seated to 3.030" COL, so it is specific to that bullet and load data, not your bullet. That bullet is 0.15" shorter than yours is. The facts that you are seating shorter than Hodgdon and you are using a 0.15" longer bullet increases your loading density and peak pressure to (only just) exceed what the Hodgdon 35 grain minimum load produces with the 140 grain Speer soft point loaded to 3.030" COL, so you are doing just fine. QuickLOAD shows you would match their starting pressure at 34.35 grains. So you are pretty neatly right where your starting load should be and getting 0.6% better loading density than the Hodgdon load and bullet combination has.
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Nick, this is excellent information. Thanks for the help.

One thing that many Ljungman shooters seem to experience (based on forum posts) is the "decent group, with a flyer" phenomenon. I'm hoping that I can conquer it with the right load.
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Old August 2, 2019, 10:28 AM   #10
Calfed
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Quote:
Excellent shooting with open sights and old battle rifle, and appreciate the load info. Maybe one day will actually fire the one sitting in storage.
Thanks, Zeke! They are sure fun to shoot.
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Old August 2, 2019, 10:42 AM   #11
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If you can get the use of a borescope, look at the condition of the throat. Having unexplained fliers is the classic sign a throat being shot out. The little alligator skin pattern that develops due to the temperature differential between the metal surface and substrate during firing is caused by that. The little squares of alligator skin eventually start to flake off, leaving the throat uneven. Most folks load rounds with some measure of runout that tips the bullet one way, and when that round is chambered with the tilt pointed at the chip in the throat, the bullet swages into the bore more crooked than normal with the result being it center of gravity is further from the bore axis and orbiting it eccentrically as the bullet heads toward the muzzle, and causing it to lurch to the side of the axis when the muzzle lets go of it and drifts in that direction at a fairly constant rate until it reaches the target.

I don't know if this is the problem, but a clue to the barrel being shot out is the fliers are usually all in the same general direction away from the rest of the group. When I shot out my first M1A barrel, the fliers were all at about 10:30. Unfortunately, when the flier direction is down or down and right, you have to consider the possibility of shooter flinch, too. But if everyone is getting the problem, barrels seem to be a more likely explanation.

Assuming you can't conveniently replace the barrel, you could try something like G. David Tubbs throat condition system. It's a form of firelapping that removes the shot out throat if you catch it in time. Applying a throating reamer to the throat might also buy some extra life, though it will add bullet jump.
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Old August 2, 2019, 11:09 PM   #12
Calfed
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Quote:
If you can get the use of a borescope, look at the condition of the throat. Having unexplained fliers is the classic sign a throat being shot out. The little alligator skin pattern that develops due to the temperature differential between the metal surface and substrate during firing is caused by that. The little squares of alligator skin eventually start to flake off, leaving the throat uneven. Most folks load rounds with some measure of runout that tips the bullet one way, and when that round is chambered with the tilt pointed at the chip in the throat, the bullet swages into the bore more crooked than normal with the result being it center of gravity is further from the bore axis and orbiting it eccentrically as the bullet heads toward the muzzle, and causing it to lurch to the side of the axis when the muzzle lets go of it and drifts in that direction at a fairly constant rate until it reaches the target.

I don't know if this is the problem, but a clue to the barrel being shot out is the fliers are usually all in the same general direction away from the rest of the group. When I shot out my first M1A barrel, the fliers were all at about 10:30. Unfortunately, when the flier direction is down or down and right, you have to consider the possibility of shooter flinch, too. But if everyone is getting the problem, barrels seem to be a more likely explanation.

Assuming you can't conveniently replace the barrel, you could try something like G. David Tubbs throat condition system. It's a form of firelapping that removes the shot out throat if you catch it in time. Applying a throating reamer to the throat might also buy some extra life, though it will add bullet jump.
Thanks, Nick. I'll see what I can do on getting access to a bore scope.

Swedish rifles, including my Ljungmans, have a bore condition disc on the stock. Both of my Ljungmans are supposed to have excellent bores. Of course, that is as of the last time they were examined b a Swedish Armorer, which I'm sure was some time ago.
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