Shipping private to FFL

[mapsjanhere]

A lot of posts regarding shipping of guns for interstate transfer contain phrases like "if your FFL accepts shipment from private/non-FFL". Why is that an issue? Is there a problem for the receiving FFL if the gun is not shipped from another FFL for an interstate transfer?

[okiefarmer]

Some FFLs are real anal, and are only using an extreme case of CYA. AFAIK, there is no rule requiring the need for the sender to be FFL. Perhaps the are like lawyers and just sending work to other FFLs, hoping they do the same in return. I am assuming that the sending FFL also charges a fee otherwise, it's just a PITA.

On another note, and not to hijack this thread, but I have also read somewhere that there are cases that one does not have to use an FFL at all. If I bought a weapon in another state, or was just travelling and didn't want to go through the hassles of flying commercial with it, a guy can mail it to himself. Possession/ownership never changes, as in the case of a sale and shipment elsewhere, or just shipping it for work by someone else. Anyone privvy to this? Just wonderin' aloud.

[Don H]

It is not unknown for people to ship a firearm to an FFL without including any paperwork. As you can imagine, this makes it just a bit difficult for the FFL to log it into his book and notify the new owner that his firearm has arrived. Generally, an FFL-to-FFL transfer is less hassle on the receiving end and one of the reasons some FFL's prefer not to receive from a non-licensee.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by okiefarmer

...not to hijack this thread, but I have also read somewhere that there are cases that one does not have to use an FFL at all. If I bought a weapon in another state, or was just travelling and didn't want to go through the hassles of flying commercial with it, a guy can mail it to himself. Possession/ownership never changes, as in the case of a sale and shipment elsewhere, or just shipping it for work by someone else. Anyone privvy to this? Just wonderin' aloud.

The short answer is that you may not do this with a handgun.

Under some circumstances, you may be able to take possession of a long gun from an FFL in a state other than your state of residence if the transfer complies with both the laws of the state you're in and the laws of your state of residence.

Under federal law you may not buy a gun in a private transaction in a state in which you are not a resident.

[southernmaninla]

Fiddletown, sorry to call you out but you are incorrect. A private individual may ship any and all guns to an FFL anywhere in the US including Hawaii and Alaska. Some dealers will not accept guns from individuals either through ignorance or bad policy. USPS policy prohibits non FFL from shipping guns through them. FEDEX and UPS will ship pistols and long guns for you. Most of the store front shippers will not accept so you might have to go to the hub.

[NavyLT]

fiddletown is actually speaking about a separate issue. His response is correct, just not applicable to the subject of the thread, nor applicable to okiefarmer's sidenote... In other words, right answer but to the wrong question.

1. An individual may ship a handgun to an FFL in any state.

2. An individual may ship a handgun to himself, for sporitng purposes, in another state.

3. An individual may ship a handgun to a licensed gunsmith or the manufacturer in any state, and the gunsmith or manufacturer may return that handgun directly to the same individual in any state.

4. A private party may not conduct a transfer of ownership with an out of state resident without going through an FFL in the recipient's state of residence. How the handgun gets to that FFL is not specified in the Federal Law.

#4 above is the statement that fiddletown made, which is correct, it just wasn't an answer to any question asked.

Now, for the OP's question. Some FFL's will not receive handgun shipments from private parties strictly as a CYA measure. If the recipient, for instance, does not pass the background check and cannot take possession of the handgun, the FFL cannot send that gun back to the sender out-of-state. It would have to go back to an FFL in the sender's state of residence for transfer back to the sender.

If the sender does not include a copy of their own ID with the handgun, the receiving FFL could not properly document receipt of the handgun.

It is NOT a matter of potentially receiving stolen goods, because the FFL receiving the handgun, whether it comes from another FFL or from a private party has exactly the same resources available to check if the handgun is stolen or not - so that is not changed by who he receives the handgun from.

[Don H]

Originally Posted by southernmaninla

USPS policy prohibits non FFL from shipping guns through them.

This is incorrect. Although a handgun cannot be mailed by a non-licensee (except for those engaged in certain professions and then only for official purposes), antiques and long guns may be shipped through the USPS, subject to local, state and federal laws. See Domestic Mail Manual 601.11:

11.2 Antique Firearms
Antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces may be accepted for mailing without regard to 11.1.3 through 11.1.6.

11.3 Rifles and Shotguns
Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 11.1.1e and 11.1.2 are mailable, mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder, 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 11.1.1e.

http://pe.usps.com/text/DMM300/601.htm#wp1065404

[Frank Ettin]

I understood okiefarmer's OT question to be, "If I bought a weapon in another state, .... a guy can mail it to himself....?" (emphasis added) And the point of my answer is that one can't take possession of a handgun in another state (a state other than the one he lives in), so since he can't acquire possession, he can't send it to himself (and if it's a handgun, he can't mail it).

One may buy a handgun in another state, but he can only take possession of it through an FFL in his home state. So the buyer may not ship the handgun to himself in another state, nor can he ship it to an FFL in another state, because he doesn't not take possession of it in the state of purchase. The seller, whether an FFL or private party, must send the handgun to the FFL designated by the buyer in the buyer's state. But if the seller is a private party, he may do so only if the receiving FFL will accept shipments from a private party.

[okiefarmer]

Well, I'm gonna go join this guy in the link now, I'm thorougly confused.

Seriously, I understand most of the laws, but it would certainly be easy for some to break it even when they didn't think they were.

I have never gone to a out of state gunshow, always stuck with the Tulsa Wannemacher show, but if I had gone to say Wichita to a gunshow, and found a private seller of a piece that I just "had to have", it would be dang hard to say no despite knowing I would now be a felon. Or is this law a moot law if it is a private sale where no NICS is required. AFAIK, private sales are still OK in his free country, but maybe just not across state lines.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by okiefarmer

...Or is this law a moot law if it is a private sale where no NICS is required. AFAIK, private sales are still OK in his free country, but maybe just not across state lines....

Private transactions between residents of the same state are going to be subject to that state's laws. In most states they're okay without any formalities. In some states (California for one) they must still be done through a dealer or subject to some other requirements. I don't think it's a problem in Oklahoma, but I'm not certain.

Private transactions between residents of different states are subject to federal law. Under federal law, a resident of one state may not take possession of a handgun in a different state, either from a resident of that different state or from an FFL in that state. He may only take possession of the handgun from an FFL in his home state. (I have bought handguns outside of my home state. In those cases, I've provided the seller with a signed copy of my California dealer's FFL, and the handgun was shipped to that dealer. I then did the usual paperwork and took possession of the gun in due course.)

Under federal law, a resident of one state may take possession of a long gun from an FFL in a different state, as long as the long gun is legal in his state of residence and as long as the transfer complies with both the laws of the buyer's home state and the laws of the state in which the transfer is taking place.

[NavyLT]

AFAIK, private sales are still OK in his free country, but maybe just not across state lines.

There is no maybe about it. To put it in the simplest of terms, it is a violation of Federal law and a felony to receive any firearm in any private transaction from a person who is not a resident of the same state as you. The only two exceptions are if you receive that firearm in an inheritance because someone has died or you are loaned that firearm temporarily for sporting purposes.