facing a violent mob when carrying, milwaukee state fair...

[threegun]

I can't wait for an armed citizen to shoot or split the belly of one of these idiots.

[Tom Servo]

I can't wait for an armed citizen to shoot or split the belly of one of these idiots.

While I can understand the resentment and anger we all feel at seeing this sort of thing, I can't understand what you're saying.

Imagine if your best friend's kid got caught up in that mob. Maybe he didn't know what his friends had planned. Maybe he wasn't even with them, but was just dressed in a similar manner. Then someone shot him.

Heck, even if he was part of the whole thing, think how that would feel. Now, he's crippled, or dead, and his parents wondering why breaking some stuff and punching someone merits that sort of fate.

Would you still make a statement like that?

[chack]

I'm really surprised to see 20% of the respondents who would refuse to defend themselves if attacked.

On a side note, similar mob attacks and riots are occurring in other cities in several other cities , especially Philidelphia and Chicago. There is a great deal of discussion on the different firearms forums about "situational awareness". A key to being able to avoid a confrontation that might lead to injury is to be aware of a threat before it develops the critical mass of a mob mentality.

IMO part of that awareness is watching as crowds develop. Anytime I'm in public and I see a group of individuals with unique identifiable characteristics congregating I classify them by whether or not I perceive them as likely to be a threat, neutral, or protector. I base that perception on the groups activities and identifiable characteristics.

If I see a crowd of girl scouts selling cookies (nuetral) I'll react differently than a group of teenage males conducting open air drug sales (threat). If I see a group of RUBs (Rich Urban Bikers) I would perceive them to be neutral if I'm on foot but potential protectors if I am on my bike. The same situation with 1%ers makes them neutral if I'm on foot and a potential threat if I'm on my bike (I ride a 600cc yamaha and some of those guys tend to look down on us rice burners).

The point behind all this is that situational awareness requires you being aware of whether or not your appearance is going to make you a target by whichever group of na'er do wells is in the process of gathering for a mob/riot.

Are you wearing a lakers jersey on the night they beat the Bulls in a big game? That could be a big problem if you are in chicago.

Are you wearing a color associated with a particular gang in an area with gang activity. that is something you should be aware of if you see a group of young men wearing the same color.

Are you a sikh who wears traditional garb on the night of a major terrorist attack? If you aren't aware of the heightened threat to your safety due to general ignorance you are at much greater risk than your brother who chose to leave his turban at home that day or avoid an area where there has been a rash of hate crimes by individuals that share certain identifiable charachteristics.

Profiling potential adversaries is part of situational awareness

[JohnKSa]

I'm really surprised to see 20% of the respondents who would refuse to defend themselves if attacked.

I don't see anyone saying that. I do see some folks saying that they would try to get away rather than trying to take down a mob with a handgun, but that's not saying that they wouldn't defend themselves as much as it's saying that they believe that firing a few shots into a mob would be ineffective or even counterproductive.

...a group of teenage males conducting open air drug sales (threat).

No, a group of teenage males conducting open air drug sales may be breaking the law, but that doesn't automatically make them a threat. It might make them a POTENTIAL threat--something worth keeping an eye on--but that's a very different thing than saying they are actually a threat.

Profiling potential adversaries is part of situational awareness

Sure it is, as long as you don't take it to an extreme like you did in your example above.

A profile may tell you someone is potentially a threat or that they may be more likely to be a threat, but you can't decide someone IS a threat simply because of what they look like or what they're wearing or driving.

[chack]

My surprise was that only 81% said they'd defend themselves. The poll was written so that multible answers could be selected.

Originally Posted by chack

Anytime I'm in public and I see a group of individuals with unique identifiable characteristics congregating I classify them by whether or not I perceive them as likely to be a threat, neutral, or protector.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you John, but it seems like your trying really hard not to agree with me. I do, however disagree with this:

No, a group of teenage males conducting open air drug sales may be breaking the law, but that doesn't automatically make them a threat. It might make them a POTENTIAL threat--something worth keeping an eye on--but that's a very different thing than saying they are actually a threat.

I think anyone that thinks a group of young men selling drugs in the open isn't a threat has a radically different idea of security and personal safety than I do. The link between open air drug sales and violence is so obvious and well documented that I can't imagine why you even went there.

I just wanted to make the point with this thread that the BEST way to deal with a violent mob/riot is not to be there, and the best way not to be there is to identify factors that make such a thing more likely so you can avoid the area.

I don't feel comfortable with crowds in general, I'm a country boy and big cities and tall buildings make me nervous. A city boy might feel nervous in the woods and be worried about wild animals, I worry about two legged animals in the city because mobs and riots are historically much more likely to occur in urban areas.

By the same token, bear and cougar attacks are much more likely to occur in the wilderness, and some types of bears are much more likely to attack humans than others.

I just think that the key to personal safety is knowing what the potential threat is that you are likely to face and exhibiting behavior that takes your surroundings and the threats in your environment into account.

[C0untZer0]

The poll is a little messed up.

If I could - my first option would be to exit - sneaky or non-sneaky - whatever, I'd try to vacate. That doesn't mean I wouldn't defend myself and my family if attacked.

[chack]

Originally Posted by chack

The poll was written so that multible answers could be selected.

you can choose every answer if you want.

[youngunz4life]

there was a longer version but I couldn't find it after-the-fact:

http://www.cbs58.com/news/local-news...ml?skipthumb=Y

[chack]

here is the timeline of events based on the 911 call log as published in this article:http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2...te_charges.php

22:48 ~ State Fair P.D. advised us that they shut the park down early because of a large amount of fights. They report large groups of people leaving the grounds.
22:49 ~ Walgreens reports lots of people in the area.
22:59 ~ 9-1-1 call received in regards to group of 25 youths assaulting State Fair worker around 81/Greenfield.
23:00 ~ 9-1-1 call received in regards to fight at front entrance of State Fair. People are everywhere. Groups of people chasing people.
23:01 ~ Call received indicating people are leaving State Fair and heading to 84/Greenfield.
23:08 ~ State Fair P.D. reports that people are walking on cars near 84/Schlinger.
23:10 ~ Groups jumping on cars at 84/Schlinger.
23:11 ~ Angry mob, fights, wrong way drivers, people running in traffic, at 84/Schlinger.
23:12 ~ Fight at 1000 S. 84 St.
23:14 ~ Kids obstructing traffic and hitting cars.
23:15 ~ Person assaulted and has a knot on the head at 84/Schlinger. Party going to hospital on own.
23:16 ~ Victim punched in face at 84/Walker by group. Medical denied.
23:17 ~ State Fair P.D. reports fights and people jumping on cars at 84/Greenfield.
23:18 ~ Mob pulled male and female from motorcycle at 84/Adler. Female was dragged and has fat lip.
23:18 ~ Mobs hitting cars at 84/Schlinger.
23:21 ~ Victim jumped and almost robbed at 87/McMyron.
23:24 ~ Group of guys have a gun in a car near 85/Walker.
23:25 ~ Group of guys jumping people near 85/Walker. One had a gun.
23:26 ~ People running through yards. One bike stolen.
23:30 ~ Kids hitting cars at 84/Walker.
23:30 ~ Police report large fight at 84/Greenfield.
23:30 ~ Group attack male at 88/Greenfield.
23:33 ~ Kid getting pummeled by a group at 84/Schlinger.
23:34 ~ Kids jump guy at 76/Washington.
23:34 ~ State Fair P.D. report fight at 84/Greenfield.
23:35 ~ Fight reported at 85/Greenfield.
23:37 ~ Riot at 84/Greenfield. Wife has black eye and bloody lip. Refuse to report incident.
23:37 ~ Possible beating and man with gun at 76/Walker.
23:38 ~ Fight and theft at 87/McMyron.
23:39 ~ Police requesting help at McDonald's. Under control at 2340.
23:39 ~ Victim got hit by group of kids at 76/Walker.
23:40 ~ Teenagers assaulted male at 76/Walker.
23:43 ~ Fight at 76/Walker.
23:44 ~ Male assaulted by group. Bleeding, but medical refused.
23:51 ~ Homeless person beat up at 76/Greenfield.
23:51 ~ Caller got hit in face by group.
23:51 ~ Fight at 86/Greenfield.
23:51 ~ Fight at 76/Washington.
23:53 ~ 20-25 people ran in and out of gas station at 76/Greenfield at stole stuff.
23:55 ~ Mutual aid requested - MCSO. MCSO is responding.
23:57 ~ Male assaulted by group at 86/Greenfield.
23:57 ~ Caller was almost robbed by group at 87/McMyron.
00:01 ~ Police report fight at 76/Greenfield.
00:45 ~ Mutual aid canceled.

Note that the first call went in at 22:49 and it wasn't until 23:55, over an hour later, that the responding officers at the scene realized they couldn't control the situation and asked another agency for assistance. By 00:45 the situation had petered out enough that the backup request was cancelled. I'm not sure if the support from another agency ever arrived.

I have a couple points here.

The first is that there is almost always a delay between a request for police assistance and the arrival of that assistance, even under the best of circumstances. In a crowded, constricted area, that delay is even greater because instead of a vehicle responding at 80 MPH they have to slow to a crawl because rioters and victims are blocking the roads and intersections.

The second is that if you look at the report, you can see that people were pulled out of there cars through doors and windows. At a minimum, those folks should have had their doors locked and windows rolled up.

The third, as you can see from the quotes from http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2...te_charges.php below, is that the "security" at the fair was pretty weak, and that part of your situational awareness should take into account the composition of the security guard force. Not all guards are equally competent and they may not always be completely impartial or unsympathetic to the rioters. Before going to a security guard for protection, one should consider how likely that guard is to actually try to protect you.


Again, you can't always count on police to protect you. A court case years ago established that protecting the public isn't even considered their primary purpose, Their job is to arrest violators of the law, not prevent violations.

"We have squads all over the area you're going to have to walk up to an officer and find one."

"Walk up to an officer? I don't see an officer anywhere what are you talking about?"

"We have about 20 squads all around the general area."

[Tom Servo]

A court case years ago established that protecting the public isn't even considered their primary purpose,

Several precedents spring to mind. Warren v. DC was the most infamous. The Supreme Court decision in DeShaney v.s. Winnebago County found something similar.

Other cases include South v. Maryland, Bowers v. Devito, and Hartzler v. City of San Jose.

[sakeneko]

Okay, let's look at this....

• Do you run and hide/escape and hope that you can find a place where you can be secure?

I probably wouldn't *run* -- running from a mob that isn't looking for you specifically or at you specifically is just asking for their attention. Mobs are like dogs: if it runs, they chase it.

But I would try to escape or hide.

• Do you go to the assistance of a victim and attempt to stop the attack?

This point contains two separate questions. In answer to the first, I would go to the assistance of a victim if I could do so without putting my life or the lives of others at significantly heightened risk. I think that chances of being able to do this are reasonably decent. So it's not unlikely that, in practice, I would try.

In answer to the second, I would not try to stop the attack unless I thought I could do so without putting my life or the lives of others at significantly heightened risk. I think that chances of my being able to do *this* are down in the noise. So I doubt that, in practice, I would try.

• Do you draw your weapon without pointing it at anyone?

No. If I draw my weapon, it's because I intend to use it. In a mob, that would be an absolute last resort. It's too likely to provoke more violence.

• Do you calmly make your way out of the park and hope you aren't attacked?

Yes. Of all the things that you suggested, this is what I would do first. The few times I've been in or around a mob or fighting, it has also worked. If you don't engage, the fighters usually have better things to do than to bother you. (And I was in the former Yugoslavia in spring of 1991 right after the war broke out. *That* was interesting....)

• If attacked do you defend yourself and your family (with lethal force if necessary)?

Yes. The only time I could see letting a mob attack without defending myself is if, in my judgment, I can't do so without risking innocent other lives.

• Do you take the beating and hope they don't kick you in the head too much and take your gun?

This is prejudicially stated. However, it contains a valid point. Because I carry the means of defending myself with lethal force, I have a responsibility to other innocent people NOT to let it be taken from me by somebody who will then use it to kill others.

There are two corollaries to this point as well. First, although I carry openly from time to time, I don't do so when I expect to be in a crowd. Second, if I am going to participate in a protest or demonstration of any kind, I leave the gun at home. I'll carry pepper spray or some non-lethal (or usually non-lethal) form of self defense instead.

• Would your decision be affected if your race was the same as the mob or the victims?

Not unless you mean the human race. Any human being is of the same race as me. (We'll leave speculation about sentient non-humans out of this.)

• I don't think it happened, this thread is racist, and should be locked.

In Wisconsin? It happened, unfortunately. But that other individual people (of any race) are racist does not mean that I am, or should be.

I thought about skipping this list, but IMHO considering what to do in specific circumstances is an important part of training for self defense.

I've also been in a mob a few times, unlike most people I know. If you ever are, you won't have much time to think, and you'll be WAAYY ahead of the game if you've already thought about what to do. You're also far more likely to get out unscathed, or at least alive, if you don't let any testosterone-generated nonsense such as "they can't do that to me" affect your thinking or choices. Mobs unfortunately CAN do nasty things -- things that the vast majority of individuals in the mob would never do on their own. The best way not to be the target is to act in such a way that the mob won't notice you, and then GET OUT OF THERE.

[markj]

Last night of the Iowa state fair was similiar, this year they plan on stronger police presense and NO CARRY WEAPONS ALLOWED. altho they did say no metal detectors. Craigslist has a raves and rants section, some folks posting there about the last nite is Janet Jackson and a riot is planned. So we will go another night

There are multiple exits, see one is going bad go another way is all I can offer.

I just dont get it, a group of guys says hey lets go to the fair and beat up on folks for fun. I just dont understand that mindset.

So you go to the fair and be legal leave the guns and knives at home....then what?

[JohnKSa]

The link between open air drug sales and violence is so obvious and well documented that I can't imagine why you even went there.

Lots of things are linked to violence. That can make those things potential threats, but until there's actually violence or clearly impending violence they aren't threats, at least not in any legal sense of the word.

My surprise was that only 81% said they'd defend themselves. The poll was written so that multible answers could be selected.

I suspect about 20% of the respondents didn't realize that more than one answer could be selected.

[chack]

I tried to delete this thread, but that was disabled for some reason. I thought alot of really good points have been made and alot of good information has been put out, but this thread has gotten too controversial.

since I can't shut it down I'll just stop posting on it.

[youngunz4life]

I tried to delete this thread, but that was disabled for some reason. I thought alot of really good points have been made and alot of good information has been put out, but this thread has gotten too controversial.

since I can't shut it down I'll just stop posting on it.

you could always request it to be closed but what would give you the right to disable it(an admin's job) especially after you opened it on the very edge of controversial as well as pleading w/the mods to leave it open in the 1st place?

[JohnKSa]

I tried to delete this thread...

Closed per OP

[youngunz4life]

and the other times when there is an argument and people ask for closing it gets ignored?

[youngunz4life]

thanx for PM, Chack. That made sense after reading it.