Steel cased ammo in an AR

[Water-Man]

kraigwy explained it properly.

Steel doesn't expand like brass so you get more carbon build-up. Some barrels will work better than others.

[flyboy015]

I shoot pretty much anything through my 5.56 Palmetto State Armory build with 16" nitride barrel.

The only steel case ammo I have ever used is Tul Ammo, with a zinc jacket.

I have read extensively that steel case ammo will wear barrels and extractors out at an accelerated rate compared to brass case...I can believe this.

Considering "Commie" (LMAO) Tul Ammo is only $4.76 a box at Walsmart, it is a cost savings for me and I occasionally will pick up 2-5 boxes and do some casual plinking. Accuracy is just about at the limit to what I'd consider acceptable- my typical plinking targets are soda cans under 25 yards, or 2-liter bottles at up to 50 yards, both upright. Misses aren't entirely rare.

One thing I always make sure to do however, is a full rifle cleaning between running different ammo types, and never allowing myself to perform a half-arsed barrel cleaning. I've probably had 250 or more rounds of steel ammo through my barrel, and it still consistently delivers 1.5 MOA with Hornady factory loads (brass) if me and my eyes do our part. Not one malfunction to date with either ammo type, and if or when I do need a new barrel, guess what? It's $99.

I think I might have to try an accuracy comparison between TulA and the cheapo AE stuff, and see what I come up with.

[Fishbed77]

There is not enough of a price difference between the cheap brass offerings vs. the steel case offerings to make it worth it to me. As for my AK? All that will ever see is the cheap steel cased stuff. The price difference between steel cased 7.62x39 and brass makes it worth it to me.

My line of thinking as well.

My ARs eat brass. My AKs eat steel.

[jfruser]

The 6.5 Grendel boys seem happy enough with the steel cased 6.4G fodder in their ARs. Bill A's involvement in its development being a rather large factor in that acceptance and what written material I have been able to find indicated Bill A thought it fine to feed his Alexander Arms rifles.

It is generally not as accurate as the best brass cased ammo. The commonest report back is it is a ~2 MOA loading in their ARs. IMO, 2MOA is just fine for many applications such as general plinking, the non-long-range gun games, and such. So, not so good for long range work. But, then, many ARs are not suitable for long range work. Is not the Army/USMC standard for their AR variants in the neighborhood of 4MOA when new? How many of the entry-level ARs beat 2MOA with plinking FMJ ammo?

So, for, what, ~$0.22/round, steel 6.5G ammo is a pretty nifty low-cost alternative.

[bfoosh006]

Bear in mind, typical "Steel Cased" ammo also uses the cheapest powder possible... so your firearm will be dirtier and there is something to be said about the "abrasiveness" of that powder blasting down the bore and through the gas hole as well.

IMHO... "Steel Cased" ammo has its place in the ammo world... but not for a SD weapon.
Again... just my opinion.

[Palmetto-Pride]

If you don't mind a dirtier rifle and know that your barrel is probably going to wear out a little faster and can save money go for it.

[mehavey]

FWIW: "Most of the guys" who I watch each weekend as an RSO -- that are are blasting away (literally) with Eastern Block steel-cased/steel-jacketed ammunition -- don't seem to be the accuracy-OCD types.

[gshayd]

Your mileage may vary with steel cased ammo. I have had a few guns that would digest the stuff with no problems.

[Metal god]

I'm VERY skeptical of anyone that says they shoot steel cased ammo in a AR and have never had an issue . I've shot maybe 3 or 4 hundred rounds of steel cased ammo in a few different AR's and not once did I NOT have a problem at some point that day using the ammo . That is compared to thousands of brass cased rounds fired with literally no issues except during load development or shooting a new build for the first time ( Which has always been a gas block issue ) when ever there was a problem .

IMO guys that shoot steel ammo just simply have come to except the occasional failures to extract or double feeds or blame it on something else . Then can claim they never have issues . The two AR's I shoot the most , I can't even remember the last time I had a failure to do anything with either . I should add that I don't put 1k rounds down the pipe every weekend either . I run them aggressively some times but generally nothing to hard .

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by Metal god

....That is compared to thousands of brass cased rounds fired with literally no issues except during load development or shooting a new build for the first time ( Which has always been a gas block issue ) when ever there was a problem .

IMO guys that shoot steel ammo just simply have come to except the occasional failures to extract or double feeds or blame it on something else . Then can claim they never have issues . The two AR's I shoot the most , I can't even remember the last time I had a failure to do anything with either . I should add that I don't put 1k rounds down the pipe every weekend either . I run them aggressively some times but generally nothing to hard .

Emphasis added. I don't take any joy in the tough time you've had with steel cases in your rifles, but I do note that you employ much the same reasoning in evaluating brass reliability.

I've shot thousands of different sorts of steel cased rounds from a range of ARs. Exactly one pattern causes a failure to extract for me - several hundred rounds of steel followed by brass. You'd better bring a rod to knock the brass out a couple of times because it can be quite tight.

I don't doubt that some rifles are more finnicky than others.

[mehavey]

FWIW: Put drop of BreakFree on one hand, then simply roll the cases between
your hands to put a very light coat on them before stacking in the magazine.

.... then go wash your hands.

[jfruser]

I began to think a bit more critically about steel cased ammo (rather than dismiss it out of hand) after a buddy of mine fired a bunch of it through his 9mm select-fire subgun on full auto. I warned him to expect Bad Things To Happen, but no such things occurred. A few hundred rounds and one hot sub-gun later and no mishaps. (Also, I did not get a few hundred once-fired 9mm brass cases to reload, which saddened my inner hand-loader.)

Then I compared it to Winchester White Box .45ACP FMJ and found that particular steel case fodder was a bit less dirty and more accurate in my 1911. Huh.

Empirical observation beats theory in my book. But that means actually testing the ammo in your gun(s) and examining the results. May work, may not. Gotta try it out and analyze the results.

[Chainsaw.]

Everyone is always worried about wearimg out their $4 extractor and their $150 barrel, shoot more, replace the parts as necessary, rinse, repat. Whats the big question?

[Onward Allusion]

Learn something new everyday......I had no idea shooters greased their ammo.

During the banic(s) I shot Silver Bear and rolling the rounds with a couple of dabs of oil in the palms made 'em feed & eject so much better. For reals...

[Metal god]

I don't take any joy in the tough time you've had with steel cases in your rifles,

No not a tough time just a noticeable amount of issue in comparison .

As for blaming it on something else . If you reload you should know sometimes at the lower charges or the wrong burn rates you will not have the gas to cycle the bolt . The same thing happens with a mis aligned gas block . Once addressed the rifle worked flawlessly again .

I believe it's different when you identify a problem then fix it and the problem never happens again . Please advise what to fix ( on the rifle ) when steel cased ammo fails to extract in a properly functioning rifle which results in steel cased ammo working flawlessly from that point forward .

I'll add the only time my M&P shield ever malfunctioned was when a buddy shot steel cased ammo he bought to shoot .

You can call it what you will but I have noticed a pattern with steel cased ammo I don't see shooting brass from my firearms .

[Reloadron]

Getting off topic but during 1943 the US manufactured steel cased .45 ACP ammunition. Laying around here I have some. The Headstamps on what I have were ECS 43. Keep in mind this was the same year the US mint manufactured steel pennies. Both the cartridges and the pennies have a zinc wash coating.



Apparently the stuff worked but did not set well with the M1A1 Thompson Sub Machinegun as the Ordnance report from Aberdeen Proving Ground dated March 7, 1944 regarding M1A1 Thompson Submachine Guns, and particular failures involving steel cased .45 ACP ammunition. I guess the stuff shot fine in 1911 guns.

The bullets also have steel in them as a magnet picks them right up. I don't know if the bullets are a copper wash over a steel jacket or a steel billet inside a copper jacket. I also have some FA headstamp 43 which is brass case but again with steel in the bullets. The 1942 and 1944 .45 ACP I have is all brass FMJ and my magnet has no interest in 1942 stuff or 1943 stuff. While pretty much useless trivia for some it may be interesting the the US did make steel cased ammunition during the WW II years.

Ron

[flyboy015]

I'm VERY skeptical of anyone that says they shoot steel cased ammo in a AR and have never had an issue

I'll bite...lol.

In seriousness, as I mentioned in my post above yours, I estimate to have somewhere close to 250 rounds of steel case TulAmmo through my rifle, again, *so far, knocking on wood* without a malfunction. Though I'm sure my case is far from the norm. I attribute my lack of issue so far to a few things- the supposedly mil-spec complete upper I bought for only $300 with M4 feed ramps and Full Auto BCG, never mixing brass and steel case ammo in a range session, religious cleaning after every range trip, and a tad more than sufficient lubrication.

I'm sure now, my very next time shooting steel case will result in a jam or FTE because of this conversation.

And as a side note, I only mention the cost of my upper because I have a suspicion that a lesser price just might equate to a slightly (talking ten thousandths here) larger chamber or larger headspace, though this could all be BS as I am not an old, wise gunsmith.

[Metal god]

Originally Posted by Me

If you reload you should know sometimes at the lower charges or the wrong burn rates you will not have enough gas to cycle the bolt

So I've been putting some thought into what I wrote there and what Kraigwy said about the cases expanding . I may start a separate thread in the reloading forum because this has got me thinking about the burn rate and type of the powder this steel ceased ammo uses . Often this ammo is from Russia which does not use the AR platform . So this makes me wonder if they even care if the powder used is even suitable for the pressure curve the AR gas system needs to work optimally .

There are some powders that work just fine in a 223 bolt gun but with the wrong weight bullet they cause problems in an AR and this is when using brass cases . IMR-4198 comes to mine , many say it works fine in there AR while just as many it seems have cycling issues when using it .

This has lead me to start thinking along the lines that not only do the steel cases not expand and contract as well/freely as brass cases do but the burn rate of the powder throws the timing off on the gas system as well . Add the fact the steel cases are not contracting as fully or as quickly as brass does to the wrong pressure curve and the whole system can be out of whack .

I still believe the steel cases are the major factor as to why there are problems but now I'm thinking maybe the powder burn rate can be helping the problem along .

I'd like to see some test done with AR's that are perfectly gassed vs your typical way over gassed carbine and see if there's a difference in failures using steel cased ammo . Maybe test different rifles with different dwell times like a 16" barrel and carbine length gas system compared to a !8" barrel running a rifle length gas system .

Anyways this burn rate train of thought has really peeked my interest on this subject .

[stagpanther]

I'd like to see some test done with AR's that are perfectly gassed

Unless it's going to shoot the same or similar ammo all the time I don't think such a thing exists (or it is flexibly tuneable).

[Reloadron]

Metal God Mentions:

I'd like to see some test done with AR's that are perfectly gassed vs your typical way over gassed carbine and see if there's a difference in failures using steel cased ammo . Maybe test different rifles with different dwell times like a 16" barrel and carbine length gas system compared to a !8" barrel running a rifle length gas system .

Anyways this burn rate train of thought has really peeked my interest on this subject .

In general I have been curious about this for some time. Actually my curiosity runs with chamber pressures in general. Things like looking at the pressure curves for various powders, with a focus on the area under the curve would be interesting. Not so much the actual pressure or peak pressure but the area of the curve and duration of the curve. I had hoped to get something together this past summer to chart a few but maybe next year. Using something like Rifle Chamber Pressure Testing Hardware & Software but of my own design and sensor. Factory and hand loads could be charted and compared. Might be interesting to look at the charted results.

Ron

[Stats Shooter]

There is way more debate and opinion on this topic than there should be. It really isn't very complicated.

A friend down here owns/runs a gunshop and range that rents out various AR's including a few full auto guns. While they do get fired hot, they are not as abused as the ones in the Lucky Gunner article referenced in the other post. Most of the folks who shoot the full auto's buy steel cased ammo because it is cheaper. The full auto barrels are usually shot out by 15k rounds. Extractors replaced about every 5k rounds.

15k rounds of wolf military classic costs about $3,000. A new barrel and extractor can be had for $200......less than 1/10 of what you spent on the ammo to shoot the barrel out. If you shop for deals, you can get Federal American Eagle for $0.25-0.29/round or $4,500 for 15k rounds. The difference is enough to buy new 3 barrels, extractors, and have money left over.

If you are going for accuracy, like i do, then shooting bulk russian steel ammo is silly because it should never be confused with match grade ammo. I reload my own plinking ammo and match ammo. It costs $0.20/round for plinkers that shoot 3/4 -1 MOA and $0.30/round for me to load match ammo that shoots 1/4-1/2 MOA in my varmint AR.

Barrel wear and extractor wear are not what prevents me from shooting a lot of wolf or brown bear or Tul ammo, its their inherent inaccuracy. If everything was the same, yet wolf shot MOA or better, I would shoot it and just replace the barrel/extractor when necessary. In other words, if your rifle reliably shoots it, and it is accurate for your needs, then buy a bunch of those tuna cans of ammo and blast away. Worry about a new barrel when that time comes. Guns are just tools in the end, and i don't own any safe queens.

[stagpanther]

i don't own any safe queens

I don't either--I have a safe harem.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by Metal god

Please advise what to fix ( on the rifle ) when steel cased ammo fails to extract in a properly functioning rifle which results in steel cased ammo working flawlessly from that point forward .

A barrel that reliably feeds the ammunition you are using.

I've no doubt that there could combinations of barrel and steel case that don't provide good function. I have a rimfire barrel that won't extract some brass cased ammunition because the chamber is too tight. I've stopped trying to make Winchester 45gr work in it. That isn't an indictment of either the barrel or ammunition, but an observation of a poor match.

I've found the steel case ammunition I've used reliable in Palmetto State chrome lined barrels, a Faxon barrel and a Dez Arms barrel. I've never had a failure to extract with the steel case I've used, though I certainly have had failure when I then switch to brass. The Dez Arms barrel has seen Tula 75gr and the others have seen black box Wolf in both 55gr and 62gr, as well as Monarch, which has a steel case that looks to be zinc plated.

[Metal god]

A barrel that reliably feeds the ammunition you are using

Is that really an option hmm my gun wont shoot cheep steel ammo reliably , maybe I should replace the barrel ??? That does not seem reasonable to me when it's working just fine with brass . The 223 is not really designed to shoot steel cased ammo .

I don't know many Russian chamber dimensions but the 2 I know of that shoot steel cased ammo ( 7.62x39 and 7.62x54r ) both have a much more tapered case body in comparison to the 223 . They are shaped more like a wedge which helps in extraction when using the less elastic steel cases .

[bn12gg]

I pour 762 x 39 "commie" Tula thru my Russian SKS. Great gun built tough to handle the "commie" ammo. The 762 SKS is a "tough" gun that was built around steel cased ammo. The chamber is flat out built "tough." Oh, did I say "Tough".

.02. David.

Ps. I believe it is actually 762 Soviet.