Crimping and loading for accuracy - Page 5

steve4102 · December 23, 2013, 08:14 PM

Neither, we go with what works for you and what works for me.

I test my loads, crimping works for me.

You test your loads, if it doesn't work for you, so be it.

The problem here is that those that claim crimping with the Lee Factory Crimp is detrimental to accuracy have never tested it. They have no real hard data, just opinions, bout as useful as teets on a Bull my Granddad used to say.

Scimmia · December 23, 2013, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Intresting Read Steve. Now the question comes to mind and forfront. Do we go with what this guy said?. Or do we go with 5000 plus bench,F-Class and so shooters?. I do not want to detract from your post. Makes even me wonder. Great job looking that up.

That's just it, do you look at a test with normal, every day guns running normal, every day ammo, or do you ask the guys running custom guns with custom chambers and custom ammo with custom dies? Which is more applicable to you?

4runnerman · December 23, 2013, 11:36 PM

That's just it, do you look at a test with normal, every day guns running normal, every day ammo, or do you ask the guys running custom guns with custom chambers and custom ammo with custom dies? Which is more applicable to you

My 308 and 223 are a Savage FVSS ( stock rifles ). My 6MMBR is a stock Savage F Class rifle. No custom chamber, no custom ammo ( 107 Serria BTHP ).
No neck turning on any of them. I have never shot a store purchased round in any of my rifles. I buy a rifle, I buy a die set at the same time.

Now while ( as I said twice now) I am sure that crimping works in some rifles, (3rd time) but for the vast group of us it does not.

I have never crimped my 6MMBR loads as I feel it would hurt my accuracy, as it did in my 223 and my 308 WHEN I DID MY TESTS. Yes I am one that tried it,(not a never tried and trash it guy.) Now If I had a Lee crimper, I would most definitely give it a try,but fact ( to me any how ) twice in a row it did not help,but hurt. Old saying- (Strike three your out) Fell for it twice not going there again.

As for the reading- Yes it was interesting ( sincerely was ). But for every one person you find to say crimping is more accurate,you will find hundreds of the best shooters in the world saying no. As was pointed out by Bart, If it was so they would be doing it--would they not?. They want to win,and if crimping was the edge in winning they would do it. I mean think about it. Do you think that they have not tried it?. Done their own test's ?. In fact I think that some ( Bart can help here ) actually take away some of the tension and make it looser not tighter.

For me , when I go to a match-- I want to win, If crimping would have worked for me,Believe me I would be doing it for sure.

Now my test for you- The crimped loads you shot, Was--100 yards?. Show me 300 yards, Same test. I have always said and believe, If a bullet is going to go South (so to say) on you--100 yards is a very very poor example ( not far enough for the bullets true test) I have 20 plus loads in my 308 that will one hole at 100 yards,but run them to 400 plus yards and good luck.

marine6680 · December 24, 2013, 12:08 AM

OP here...

I checked out of this conversation a long time ago, got the info I needed... I just happened to notice that the thread hit the top of the page yet again...

But have fun guys... Y'all sure like to get riled up over this subject.

Scimmia · December 24, 2013, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Now while ( as I said twice now) I am sure that crimping works in some rifles, (3rd time) but for the vast group of us it does not.

And I don't mean that it will work for everyone, either. Bart has said it can be from deficiencies in the process, but what he's ignoring is that those deficiencies can be in the equipment itself. If a collet crimp can mitigate deficiencies that would cost thousands of dollars to fix or require you to spend 10x as long at the reloading bench, the crimp is a viable alternative.

Quote:

As was pointed out by Bart, If it was so they would be doing it--would they not?. They want to win,and if crimping was the edge in winning they would do it. I mean think about it. Do you think that they have not tried it?. Done their own test's ?. In fact I think that some ( Bart can help here ) actually take away some of the tension and make it looser not tighter.

They don't because their equipment and process doesn't require it. As for neck tension, that's not true of a collet crimp, which is totally different than the other crimp dies on the market.

Brian Pfleuger · December 24, 2013, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve4102

Explain this.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html

In fact with these test results, the "fact" is crimped rounds are arguably indeed More accurate. Irrefutable, bullets to paper, not theory or opinion, just real life test results.

It's already been explained... Crimping can make inaccurate ammo more accurate by covering up one/some of the reasons why the ammo is inaccurate. That's one explanation. Some of that ammo was averaging 2/3s to over 1 MOA uncrimped. That's not good ammo.

Second, 25 total rounds in 5, 5 shot groups. Statistically invalid, proves nothing.

Third, the only test that used reasonably accurate ammo, grouping about 1/3 MOA uncrimped only improved 0.003. Improved, yes, see second point above. That's an improvement of 1%. Absolutely and totally within the error of such a small test.

Bart B. · December 24, 2013, 12:06 PM

This thread reminds me of what happened at an international pistol match some years ago. The USA team member who won the rapid fire pistol event (semiauto. 22 short, three series of 5 shots in 8, 6, and 4 seconds at the five, 25 meter targets) had modified the weight under the barrel on his pistol. Several randomly placed holes were drilled sideways through the weight so his pistol would weigh and be muzzle heavy for what he felt was best for him.

After the award ceremony, one country's team captain asked him if he could inspect his pistol, to which he gladly handed it to him. Then he measured with a precision caliper the diameters and locations of each hole's position on the weight. Then pressed that noted sheet of paper on it to get a wrinkled profile of the weight and its position under the barrel. Saying thanks to the USA team member for letting him do so, he vanished into the crowd safely guarding that piece of paper in his pocket.

He told me some years later about wondering if that sheet of paper really helped make their team's rapid fire pistols end up with an identical weight under their barrels and make them shoot accurte and easily.

steve4102 · December 24, 2013, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger

It's already been explained... Crimping can make inaccurate ammo more accurate by covering up one/some of the reasons why the ammo is inaccurate. That's one explanation. Some of that ammo was averaging 2/3s to over 1 MOA uncrimped. That's not good ammo.

Second, 25 total rounds in 5, 5 shot groups. Statistically invalid, proves nothing.

Third, the only test that used reasonably accurate ammo, grouping about 1/3 MOA uncrimped only improved 0.003. Improved, yes, see second point above. That's an improvement of 1%. Absolutely and totally within the error of such a small test.

All True. You forgot to mention that some of the Un-crimped ammo was averaging in the .3's, that would be "good Ammo".. The LFCD improved this "good Ammo" as well.

The main point of this test is that it refutes all the theories and opinions that crimping with the Lee Factory Crimp die will Degrade accuracy.

Good ammo, bad ammo, statistically valid or invalid it Clearly Shows that the LEE Factory Crimp die in NO WAY Degraded accuracy. Which is what Bart and a few others have been preaching.

Brian Pfleuger · December 24, 2013, 06:17 PM

Ok, this is my last post on this subject.

1)I did not forget to mention that the ammo shooting in the .3s was good ammo. I specifically said (you quoted me even) that it was the only reasonably accurate ammo in the test.

2)The main point is that it doesn't prove anything. The accuracy of ammo, no matter the definition, is a STATISTICAL quality. A statistically INVALID test does not prove a statistical quality. That's exactly what it MEANS to be "statistically invalid". A single 25 shot group gets CLOSE to be statistically valid. Five, 5 shot groups do not. I'd be very interested to know the sizes of the 25 shot aggregate groups.

3)The improvement IN THE ONLY GOOD AMMO in the test was WELL WITHIN the statistical margin of error of the test because the test is too small to be valid. If a SINGLE ONE of those groups had been a mere 0.075 larger, the averages would have been identical. Does anyone really believe that they can replicate 5 shot groups within 0.075"?

4)No one, including Bart B., has EVER in this thread nor any other of which I am aware said that crimping ammo can NEVER improve accuracy. The point being made, over and over again, is that when it DOES improve accuracy it is doing so because it is covering up or correcting a quality control issue that is worse than what is introduced by the crimp. This is proven because the best shooter with the best equipment have shown that crimping does NOT improve accuracy in the best equipment.

In short terms, the test is invalid and tests to the contrary have been conducted by the best shooters and the best equipment and if crimping worked, they'd do it. Now, if crimping improves the accuracy of YOUR ammo and you're content to simply say it's better rather than chasing down whatever symptom the crimp is covering up, great. You shoot your ammo and I'll shoot mine. It's still a (relatively) free country.

December 23, 2013, 11:36 PM	#103
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	That's just it, do you look at a test with normal, every day guns running normal, every day ammo, or do you ask the guys running custom guns with custom chambers and custom ammo with custom dies? Which is more applicable to you My 308 and 223 are a Savage FVSS ( stock rifles ). My 6MMBR is a stock Savage F Class rifle. No custom chamber, no custom ammo ( 107 Serria BTHP ). No neck turning on any of them. I have never shot a store purchased round in any of my rifles. I buy a rifle, I buy a die set at the same time. Now while ( as I said twice now) I am sure that crimping works in some rifles, (3rd time) but for the vast group of us it does not. I have never crimped my 6MMBR loads as I feel it would hurt my accuracy, as it did in my 223 and my 308 WHEN I DID MY TESTS. Yes I am one that tried it,(not a never tried and trash it guy.) Now If I had a Lee crimper, I would most definitely give it a try,but fact ( to me any how ) twice in a row it did not help,but hurt. Old saying- (Strike three your out) Fell for it twice not going there again. As for the reading- Yes it was interesting ( sincerely was ). But for every one person you find to say crimping is more accurate,you will find hundreds of the best shooters in the world saying no. As was pointed out by Bart, If it was so they would be doing it--would they not?. They want to win,and if crimping was the edge in winning they would do it. I mean think about it. Do you think that they have not tried it?. Done their own test's ?. In fact I think that some ( Bart can help here ) actually take away some of the tension and make it looser not tighter. For me , when I go to a match-- I want to win, If crimping would have worked for me,Believe me I would be doing it for sure. Now my test for you- The crimped loads you shot, Was--100 yards?. Show me 300 yards, Same test. I have always said and believe, If a bullet is going to go South (so to say) on you--100 yards is a very very poor example ( not far enough for the bullets true test) I have 20 plus loads in my 308 that will one hole at 100 yards,but run them to 400 plus yards and good luck. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional Last edited by 4runnerman; December 24, 2013 at 12:11 AM.

December 24, 2013, 12:06 PM	#107
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	This thread reminds me of what happened at an international pistol match some years ago. The USA team member who won the rapid fire pistol event (semiauto. 22 short, three series of 5 shots in 8, 6, and 4 seconds at the five, 25 meter targets) had modified the weight under the barrel on his pistol. Several randomly placed holes were drilled sideways through the weight so his pistol would weigh and be muzzle heavy for what he felt was best for him. After the award ceremony, one country's team captain asked him if he could inspect his pistol, to which he gladly handed it to him. Then he measured with a precision caliper the diameters and locations of each hole's position on the weight. Then pressed that noted sheet of paper on it to get a wrinkled profile of the weight and its position under the barrel. Saying thanks to the USA team member for letting him do so, he vanished into the crowd safely guarding that piece of paper in his pocket. He told me some years later about wondering if that sheet of paper really helped make their team's rapid fire pistols end up with an identical weight under their barrels and make them shoot accurte and easily. Last edited by Bart B.; December 24, 2013 at 12:38 PM.

December 24, 2013, 06:17 PM	#109
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Ok, this is my last post on this subject. 1)I did not forget to mention that the ammo shooting in the .3s was good ammo. I specifically said (you quoted me even) that it was the only reasonably accurate ammo in the test. 2)The main point is that it doesn't prove anything. The accuracy of ammo, no matter the definition, is a STATISTICAL quality. A statistically INVALID test does not prove a statistical quality. That's exactly what it MEANS to be "statistically invalid". A single 25 shot group gets CLOSE to be statistically valid. Five, 5 shot groups do not. I'd be very interested to know the sizes of the 25 shot aggregate groups. 3)The improvement IN THE ONLY GOOD AMMO in the test was WELL WITHIN the statistical margin of error of the test because the test is too small to be valid. If a SINGLE ONE of those groups had been a mere 0.075 larger, the averages would have been identical. Does anyone really believe that they can replicate 5 shot groups within 0.075"? 4)No one, including Bart B., has EVER in this thread nor any other of which I am aware said that crimping ammo can NEVER improve accuracy. The point being made, over and over again, is that when it DOES improve accuracy it is doing so because it is covering up or correcting a quality control issue that is worse than what is introduced by the crimp. This is proven because the best shooter with the best equipment have shown that crimping does NOT improve accuracy in the best equipment. In short terms, the test is invalid and tests to the contrary have been conducted by the best shooters and the best equipment and if crimping worked, they'd do it. Now, if crimping improves the accuracy of YOUR ammo and you're content to simply say it's better rather than chasing down whatever symptom the crimp is covering up, great. You shoot your ammo and I'll shoot mine. It's still a (relatively) free country. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

December 23, 2013, 08:14 PM	#101
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	Neither, we go with what works for you and what works for me. I test my loads, crimping works for me. You test your loads, if it doesn't work for you, so be it. The problem here is that those that claim crimping with the Lee Factory Crimp is detrimental to accuracy have never tested it. They have no real hard data, just opinions, bout as useful as teets on a Bull my Granddad used to say.

December 24, 2013, 12:08 AM	#104
marine6680 Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2012 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 4,594	OP here... I checked out of this conversation a long time ago, got the info I needed... I just happened to notice that the thread hit the top of the page yet again... But have fun guys... Y'all sure like to get riled up over this subject.