.357 Sig Question

Roamin_Wade · August 28, 2018, 06:19 AM

When I got into really studying the Firearms industry I surrounded myself with literature that taught me a lot. I learned that the 357 Sig round actually produces ballistics close to the venerable 357 Mag. It should be a preferred self defense round but at the large Gun store that I work in there is one box of .357 Sig hollow points. The only way we would have a pistol that shot the .357 Sig would be if we had a pistol get traded in. What in the blue hell is going on?

We should also be sporting the 400 Corbon pistols too but we don’t. You can buy a .45 ACP pistol, order a .40 cal barrel to go in it and then buy some 400 Corbon’s, and use the same .45 magazine and have an even better round than the .357 Sig! Why aren’t we stepping up to these bad-to-the-bone rounds for self defense? What am I missing? What do I not understand?

NAW · August 28, 2018, 06:48 AM

Recoil is the problem. Until handguns have counter recoil type actions, putting a hotter round in the platform causes too many problems for follow up shots. Muzzle flash and the blast from the muzzle shooting very hot rounds doesnt help at all with your situational awareness in a gun fight.

It's like shooting a snub nose 357 magnum revolver. I bet you can make more hits on the target quickly by shooting 38 specials through it then you can by shooting the much more "powerful" 357 magnum through it.

grinner · August 28, 2018, 07:38 AM

357 Sig never took off, IMO, because most LE agencies adopted either the 9 mm or the .40 S&W. Sure, the Secret Service, Air Marshals, and some highway patrols (like Texas) adopted it, but not a lot of local agencies. And the Texas DPS has gone back to 9 mm. Thus, there is only a niche call for the round.

I shot .357 Sig out of my P226 and enjoyed it. I also found it to be more accurate than 9mm. But I’m also used to the flash, bang, and recoil of .357 Magnum. Still, I’m not sure I would want to shoot it out of a small polymer gun, which is the most common carried pistol.

MandolinMan · August 28, 2018, 07:38 AM

More power isn't always better. In general, people tend to shoot lighter recoiling calibers faster and more accurately than heavier recoiling calibers. Also, current data seems to suggests very little difference in terms of effectiveness between the most common defensive calibers.

But find out for yourself. Get a shot timer and do some defensive drills shooting 357 sig and 9mm out of comparable pistols.

AK103K · August 28, 2018, 07:49 AM

I was enamored with the 357SIG for a while there, until I realized that 9mm could give me similar ballistics with the right load, and the ammo was a lot cheaper, especially after that one ammo shortage.

I had 5 SIG's and 1 Glock in the caliber. The SIG's seemed to hold up better to the round, the Glock was kind of beating itself to death, and it was the Glock that basically made my mind up to make the change.

I had a 31 and a couple of 17's at the time, and the underside of the slide on the 31 was getting heavily peened, and had to be dressed up with a file a couple of times. The one 17 had more +P+ (same basic pressure as the 357) through it than the 31 had 357SIG, and it was barely showing finish wear in the same spot on the slide.

My SIG's never really showed any signs of wear from the round, other than a couple, that had some chips in the anodizing on the frame rails.

The recoil difference was not noticeable, and if I handed you a 31 and a 17 loaded with +P+(and +P+ isnt really much hotter feeling shooting wise than standard 9mm, to me anyway), I seriously doubt you could have told me which gun I handed you.

The one noticeable thing I saw, was muzzle blast/bark. The 357 is louder. I never noticed flash to be an issue or even noticeable though, even when shooting indoors or in low light. That was with factory and my reloads.

Ammo cost ended up being a big deal, as back when Obama got in and that one shortage took off, the cost more than doubled, and seemed to stay inflated. I was paying $250 a case for 357SIG back then (exact same price I was paying for .40S&W). Once things went nuts, 357SIG was approaching $600/1000. I actually made out like a bandit selling off my unopened cases of 357SIG. Basically doubled my money on most of it.

I also loaded for it, and components were always historically higher. I actually didnt bother reloading for it until things went nuts, as the difference in price between my reloads and a box of factory (case price) was only a $1. Why bother. That changed when the prices shot up. Even then though, the component prices went up too. It was cheaper to reload, but it still wasnt cheap.

357SIG uses caliber specific bullets, and most 9mm bullets won't work right, due to bullet shape. Other than that, its not a big deal really. There were some dire warnings about neck tension and bullet set back, but if you use a compressed load, like the AA#9 load, that fills the case, set back is a non issue and neck tension isnt as much of an issue. I never had any problems there.

I never lubed cases, and just used a .40 sizer die for the first step. One extra step, but no big deal.

You do have to watch you dont get .40 cases mixed in. You can easily, and without notice, tour a .40 case into a sorta 357SIG. I had it hapen a couple of times, and they seemed to work OK, but as I understand it, the cases are different, and not just because of the OAL when sized.

Theres really nothing wrong with the round, I think it was just one of those things, like the .45GAP, that were more of a niche/limited special use kind of round, that just didnt catch on. Most of the major caliber all perform to the same standard, so its not like they are some Hammer of Todd.

I swithced over to 9mm, and never looed back. I get the same basic thing power wise with +P+, and ammo and components that are a lot cheaper.

Onward Allusion · August 28, 2018, 08:23 AM

I love the 357 Sig round. It's what my EDC eats. Despite all the claims, +P 9mm can only come close to a high performance off the shelf 357 Sig round. To this day, I have not seen a 9mm round that comes close to 700 ft/lb from a full size pistol.

Regarding recoil...try lifting weights and getting stronger. I'm not trying to be a D*. I used to be extremely recoil sensitive after my heart surgery. I was a 155 lb weakling and a 12 year old could have kicked my butt. I started working out and am now in my best physical shape since my late teens. I have zero issues with recoil nowadays, even with 44 Mag.

TailGator · August 28, 2018, 09:15 AM

I think the above issues, brought up by people with more experience than I with the round, are the reason that the round never caught on very strongly. Business considerations such as profit and inventory costs are the reasons that your boss didn't put the ammo or the guns on the shelf.

Roamin_Wade · August 28, 2018, 09:39 AM

I didn’t know that it’s report was a lot sharper than other rounds. Oh well, supply and demand always rules the day and if it’s dying out, there’s a reason for it. It is one bad ass round though. Thanks!

AK103K · August 28, 2018, 10:51 AM

Its got a bit of a crack to it, but so does the 357MAG, and few others. I dont think its really a big deal. If I shot any of them, without hearing protection, hell, even a .22, Im not hearing anything for about a week, so for me, its a moot point.

There really nothing wrong with it, and if it floats your boat, hey, have at it. Nothing learned, one way or the other, if you dont bother.

Having had it, and living with it for a few years, I just think its sort of a one trick pony, and other things give a bit more versatility, and at a cheaper cost. I never disliked it, I just find I like other things better.

I think it does pretty much what it set out to, and that was more or less duplicate the old 125 grain 357MAG load, that so many seem to think is the benchmark for this sort of thing. It comes pretty close. Then again, so does +P+ 9mm at the extreme end of its range. So does 125 grain 357MAG for that matter.

I think whats more important, if you plan on using it for anything but fun, that whatever you choose, it should be something you shoot well with, are intimately familiar with, and shoot regularly with in practice.

Id be more worried about someone with a .22LR, who did the above, than anyone with some wonder caliber, that just talks a lot about it.

saleen322 · August 28, 2018, 11:12 AM

As others have posted, the 9mm, doesn't need to be +P, delivers similar performance when it comes to penetration and even expansion. While the 357 Sig is a little better, it is not a big difference. All that said, the 357 Sig is a good round if you want to go that route.

Sharkbite · August 28, 2018, 11:13 AM

I always thought a 40cal Mp5 rebarreled to 357sig would be a great little subgun.

CDW4ME · August 28, 2018, 11:48 AM

I'm more comfortable with the extra KE of 357 Sig than 9mm, equivalent bullet design.
5 shot chrono averages from Lone Wolf 357 Sig Barrel in my Glock 22:
Defacto Glock 31:
Speer Gold Dot 125 @ 1,363 fps / 516# KE
Federal HST 125 @ 1,385 fps / 533# KE
Ranger T 125 @ 1,389 fps / 536# KE

pblanc · August 28, 2018, 02:01 PM

I have two SIG P229s chambered in .40 S&W and a 357 SIG barrel that I sometimes use in one or the other. The cartridge is fun to shoot and is certainly a potent self-defense cartridge but the question is whether it offers any real advantage over the alternatives.

There are some things about the 357 SIG round that I know are true.

1. It is loud (in comparison with 9 mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP).

2. It is more expensive. For those who don't hand load, commercial FMJ practice ammo is going to cost more than .40 S&W and a lot more than 9 mm Luger. If you can buy on-line and especially in bulk, you might be able to get FMJ 357 SIG ammo for about the same price as .45 ACP. If you have to buy locally, it is almost certainly going to be the most expensive of the four calibers mentioned, if you can find it at all. JHP self-defense 357 SIG can often be found at prices comparable to the other calibers, but the selection is more limited.

3. It has more muzzle flash. The muzzle flash might be a significant drawback if you have to shoot in dim lighting and the louder report might be if you have to shoot indoors without hearing protection.

Balanced against these drawbacks are some alleged advantages.

1. The bottleneck cartridge is less likely to cause feed issues. I really don't see this as much of a deal. None of my .40 S&W pistols has ever had any feed issues so I can't improve on 100%.

2. The cartridge might have better barrier penetration than .40 S&W. Allegedly, this is a big part of the reason that it was used by Federal Air Marshals (who might need to shoot through airplane seats and partitions) and Secret Service (who might need to shoot through vehicle doors and windows). In most civilian SD scenarios, better barrier penetration might not be an advantage.

3. Being a higher velocity cartridge, it will shoot flatter at distance. This will only become significant at ranges over 25 yards. Again, probably won't be an advantage in most civilian SD scenarios.

4. It delivers more kinetic energy. Here is where the fur starts to fly. Those individuals who believe that kinetic energy deposit is the Holy Grail of handgun terminal ballistics embrace 357 SIG even through its performance in ballistic gel with regards to penetration and expansion is no better than that of some 9 mm loads and inferior (wrt expanded diameter) to .40 S&W loads. Commercially available 357 SIG JHP loads have about the same momentum as .40 S&W loads. There are a lot of 357 SIG fans who claim that damage to small animals they have shot with 357 SIG is more extensive than with 9 mm or .40 S&W. There are also a lot of anecdotal reports of animals going down more quickly with 357 SIG. I don't shoot animals, so I can't comment.

5. I have heard some comment that 357 SIG is easier to shoot than .40 S&W. I don't find this to be the case. Perhaps that is because I have shot a lot more .40 S&W than 357 SIG. I would say the recoil characteristics are similar, but different. I find 357 SIG tends to have a sharper jab-like push straight back into the hand whereas .40 S&W has a little more muzzle rise. Either definitely has more recoil than 9 mm Luger in a similar size and weight pistol.

Here are some ballistic gel tests of 357 SIG JHP loads which can be compared to 9 mm Luger or .40 S&W tests using the same protocol:

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/357-sig-gel-test/

Paul Harrell is also good for entertainment, if nothing else:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrcSO5wErJw

I am a fan of .40 S&W. I have been looking for one or more definite advantages of 357 SIG over .40 S&W to compensate for what I see as its definite disadvantages (flash, noise, cost) and I have yet to find any convincing ones for civilian SD use. I think part of the reason we haven't seen more use of 357 SIG is that others have basically come to the same conclusion.

Red Devil · August 28, 2018, 06:23 PM

Like the .357 SIG... but as a woods round - with heavy bullets and a longer Bbl.

Have a LWD 5.3" conversion Bbl for my GLOCK G23.4 and it really shoots the HDY Custom 147 gr. XTP and 140 gr. S&B FMJ-FP nice.

>1300 fps at the muzzle and a much better burn rate, most of the flash and bang are gone and they penetrate ~ 24" in gel.

For SD/HD, prefer the subsonic .40/180 gr's or .45 ACP/230 gr's.

Red

tipoc · August 28, 2018, 10:51 PM

The Sig round came out 4 years after the 40 S&W was introduced in 1990. By then the 40 had moved into first place as the law enforcement round of choice. So the 40 and the 9mm dominated leo use by the time it appeared. Very few departments chose to swap out their new 40 S&W chambered guns for the Sig round.

The 357 Sig round was at first only chambered in the Sig P229 in 1994. In 1998 it was joined by the Glock 31. The P229 was more expensive than the Glocks. So in 1994, when introduced, law enforcement was reluctant to switch to a new ammo in more expensive guns. The guns that they were using 40 in were either S&W pistols or Glocks which were basically given away, at that time, to law enforcement. So little motivation to switch. 4 years later when the Glock 31 came out there was still little motivation. Especially as the 40 Glocks were having issues.

The Sig round faded from view.

It's tried to make a few comebacks but is not widely used. It's become a niche round. It's a very good round. I went to two local gun stores recently looking for some bullet weights other than 125 gr. for the Sig. None were in stock and only one or two brands of ammo in stock. I can order it sure, but it's a measure of where the round stands.

But the 357 Sig is, compared to the 38 Casull, the 400 Cor-Bon or teh 9x23 Winchester wildly popular.

tipoc

Roamin_Wade · August 29, 2018, 05:28 AM

With the 357 Sig basically born from a necked down 40 S&W and getting such outstanding performance, I wonder why the cousin 400 Corbon has never been available in many Guns. I mean, at least the 357 Sig got a chance of catching on but the bad ass 400 Corbon, as far as I know, has only been something someone with a 45 pistol could create by simply buying a 40 cal barrel for their 45. It’s supposed to be able to use the the same mags too.

As far as the lack of popularity that the 357 Sig is seeing I would still not hesitate to buy one for SD. If it’s just for protection then 100 rounds of practice ammo and 25 rounds of HP ammo would go a long way, lasting a long time. Folks do the same sort of thing with their 357 Mag’s by shooting 38’s for practice because they are cheaper and then loading the 357 Mag ammo for carry protection. I’m sure there is folks out there that do exactly that with their 357 Sig’s.

jr24 · August 29, 2018, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pblanc

I have two SIG P229s chambered in .40 S&W and a 357 SIG barrel that I sometimes use in one or the other. The cartridge is fun to shoot and is certainly a potent self-defense cartridge but the question is whether it offers any real advantage over the alternatives.

There are some things about the 357 SIG round that I know are true.

1. It is loud (in comparison with 9 mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP).

2. It is more expensive. For those who don't hand load, commercial FMJ practice ammo is going to cost more than .40 S&W and a lot more than 9 mm Luger. If you can buy on-line and especially in bulk, you might be able to get FMJ 357 SIG ammo for about the same price as .45 ACP. If you have to buy locally, it is almost certainly going to be the most expensive of the four calibers mentioned, if you can find it at all. JHP self-defense 357 SIG can often be found at prices comparable to the other calibers, but the selection is more limited.

3. It has more muzzle flash. The muzzle flash might be a significant drawback if you have to shoot in dim lighting and the louder report might be if you have to shoot indoors without hearing protection.

Balanced against these drawbacks are some alleged advantages.

1. The bottleneck cartridge is less likely to cause feed issues. I really don't see this as much of a deal. None of my .40 S&W pistols has ever had any feed issues so I can't improve on 100%.

2. The cartridge might have better barrier penetration than .40 S&W. Allegedly, this is a big part of the reason that it was used by Federal Air Marshals (who might need to shoot through airplane seats and partitions) and Secret Service (who might need to shoot through vehicle doors and windows). In most civilian SD scenarios, better barrier penetration might not be an advantage.

3. Being a higher velocity cartridge, it will shoot flatter at distance. This will only become significant at ranges over 25 yards. Again, probably won't be an advantage in most civilian SD scenarios.

4. It delivers more kinetic energy. Here is where the fur starts to fly. Those individuals who believe that kinetic energy deposit is the Holy Grail of handgun terminal ballistics embrace 357 SIG even through its performance in ballistic gel with regards to penetration and expansion is no better than that of some 9 mm loads and inferior (wrt expanded diameter) to .40 S&W loads. Commercially available 357 SIG JHP loads have about the same momentum as .40 S&W loads. There are a lot of 357 SIG fans who claim that damage to small animals they have shot with 357 SIG is more extensive than with 9 mm or .40 S&W. There are also a lot of anecdotal reports of animals going down more quickly with 357 SIG. I don't shoot animals, so I can't comment.

5. I have heard some comment that 357 SIG is easier to shoot than .40 S&W. I don't find this to be the case. Perhaps that is because I have shot a lot more .40 S&W than 357 SIG. I would say the recoil characteristics are similar, but different. I find 357 SIG tends to have a sharper jab-like push straight back into the hand whereas .40 S&W has a little more muzzle rise. Either definitely has more recoil than 9 mm Luger in a similar size and weight pistol.

Here are some ballistic gel tests of 357 SIG JHP loads which can be compared to 9 mm Luger or .40 S&W tests using the same protocol:

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/357-sig-gel-test/

Paul Harrell is also good for entertainment, if nothing else:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrcSO5wErJw

I am a fan of .40 S&W. I have been looking for one or more definite advantages of 357 SIG over .40 S&W to compensate for what I see as its definite disadvantages (flash, noise, cost) and I have yet to find any convincing ones for civilian SD use. I think part of the reason we haven't seen more use of 357 SIG is that others have basically come to the same conclusion.

This has pretty much been my experience as well. I'm often intrigued by the round and want to go back, but I really question the advantages.

Now, if someone could definitively prove to me that the extra KE from the round resulted in secondary wounding from hydrostatic shock like a rifle then may be.

I guess I figure if it is the laser bad guy stopping beam some say it is, it would not have faded as much as it has and would have supplanted .40 as a go to duty caliber.

Mostly I just stick with 9mm and move to 10mm when I need some extra "oomph".

AK103K · August 29, 2018, 04:28 PM

Quote:

This has pretty much been my experience as well. I'm often intrigued by the round and want to go back, but I really question the advantages.

Now, if someone could definitively prove to me that the extra KE from the round resulted in secondary wounding from hydrostatic shock like a rifle then may be.

I guess I figure if it is the laser bad guy stopping beam some say it is, it would not have faded as much as it has and would have supplanted .40 as a go to duty caliber.

Mostly I just stick with 9mm and move to 10mm when I need some extra "oomph".
Today 06:28 AM

I emailed Speer in response to this very thing back before I switched back to 9mm. I was asking if there was a velocity barrier, much like the 5.56 has, that makes the round more effective within the velocity limits. This was the response I got....

Quote:

Jimmy: to some extent you're correct. The 9mm is a 35,000 psi, +P is 38,500 psi and +P+ is 40,000 psi. The 357 SIG is a 40,000 psi.

Bullets of the same weight will approximate the same velocities in SIG and +P+.

The difference is gun construction, all 9mm's will not handle +P+. All
of the 357 SIG's are made to handle the pressures for the caliber.

Shoot Straight!
Coy Getman
CCI/SPEER Technical Service
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
(800) 627-3640 ext. #5351 (pound key must be used)

I think a lot of this is based on emotion and whats invested. We all like what we like and choose, and dont like being told, it might not be that Sword of Todd we thought it was or feel it is. Same goes for any of them, not just the 357SIG.

Im still carrying 127 grain +P+ Winchester Ranger T's in my 9mm's, more or less based on what Speer was pointing out, and that the 9mm +P+ and 357SIG are very similar and the 357SIG doesnt really offer anything more.

Once these Ranger T's are burnt up, Im going to probably switch over to one of the bonded 124 grain loads, that seem to perform just as well.

The biggest advantage the 9mm has over all the others is, cost and shootability. I get more for my money ammo/components wise, and I shoot a lot more because of it. More and constant shooting leads to better on target results.

And while I really dont see much if any difference in shooting it compared to the 357SIG, I know I do shoot it more easily and faster, than I do with my .45's, and the couple of .40's I shoot. Its even easier than most of the .380's.

Nothing wrong with any of them really, if youre comfortable with shooting them and honest and realistic with yourself in your assessments. I really dont have any troubles shooing any of the others, I just find its easier to shoot the 9mm, I get the same basic performance as the others, and I get more on board ammo in a smaller gun, so whats not to like. The fact that ammo is that much cheaper, is just more frosting on the cake.

dontcatchmany · August 29, 2018, 06:07 PM

I like 357 Sig, but I have other calibers that are good also.

I have two 357 Sig barrels. One is for a Glock 27, the other one is for an FNS 40 or FNX 40.

The 357 Sig currently resides in the FNX 40 and is used as a truck gun.

The first time I shot one of the FNs with the 357 Sig was at a range and on a lark I shot it at a tree approximately 100 yds away. I was shocked that the round was only several inches from my aiming poing.

The round is very accurate in the FNs and I like it in the G27.

The FNs and the Glock also have 9mm barrels and mags. I like the versatility of several calibers in on gun.

I also totally enjoy 40 S&W.

The recoil/flip of 40 or 357 Sig is not a big problem to me.

I checked my ammo supply of 357 Sig and I have 800 rds of FMJ and 70-80 of Speer Gold Dot and about a half box of Winchester JHP.

I purchase most of my ammo for all calibers that I shoot in bulk online.

Now you folks have gotten me to look into a 400 Carbone barrel for my FNX45...dang you!

Bottom Gun · August 29, 2018, 06:16 PM

The .357 Sig is a great cartridge but bullet variety and ammo availability are lacking and factory ammo is expensive. You really have to be a reloader to take full advantage of the cartridge.

jmr40 · August 29, 2018, 07:12 PM

In the real world 357 Sig doesn't do anything 9mm+P won't do. The better 9mm loads will match 4" 357 mag loads and beat 357 mag loads from barrels shorter than 4". The 357 Sig will match 357 mag from 6" barrels. Just not that much better.

When you factor in less mag capacity, greater expense, and more recoil it is no surprise that 357 Sig is never going to be a popular round.

Nanuk · August 29, 2018, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Recoil is the problem. Until handguns have counter recoil type actions, putting a hotter round in the platform causes too many problems for follow up shots. Muzzle flash and the blast from the muzzle shooting very hot rounds doesnt help at all with your situational awareness in a gun fight.

It's like shooting a snub nose 357 magnum revolver. I bet you can make more hits on the target quickly by shooting 38 specials through it then you can by shooting the much more "powerful" 357 magnum through it.

Apparently you never fired a 357 Sig. The 357Sig has no more recoil than a 9mm in the same gun. Fast hits with a 357 magnum are a achieved with skill.

74A95 · August 29, 2018, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmr40

In the real world 357 Sig doesn't do anything 9mm+P won't do. The better 9mm loads will match 4" 357 mag loads and beat 357 mag loads from barrels shorter than 4". The 357 Sig will match 357 mag from 6" barrels. Just not that much better.

When you factor in less mag capacity, greater expense, and more recoil it is no surprise that 357 Sig is never going to be a popular round.

Please share the data you're using for your comparison.

I suspect it might be a little biased, especially if one compares the high performance 9mm +P+, 357 Sig and 357 Magnum ammo from the same manufacturer, such a Buffalo Bore and Underwood.

Underwood 9mm 124 grain +P+ = 1300 fps.
Underwood 357 Sig 125 = 1475 fps.
Underwood 357 Magnum 125 = 1700 fps.

74A95 · August 29, 2018, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nanuk

Apparently you never fired a 357 Sig. The 357Sig has no more recoil than a 9mm in the same gun. Fast hits with a 357 magnum are a achieved with skill.

Of course the 357 Sig has more recoil than a 9mm in the same gun. The 357 Sig pushes the same bullet weight ~200 fps faster than the 9mm. That means more recoil.

Data from Hornady, using same powders, same gun weight of 2.5 lbs., max loads:

9mm

124 grain bullet with 6.6 gr of Blue Dot at 1100 fps = 2.75 ft lb recoil.
124 grain bullet with 7.9 gr of A#7 at 1150 fps = 3.10 ft lb recoil.

357 Sig

124 grain bullet with 10.5 gr of Blue Dot at 1350 fps = 4.52 ft lb recoil.
124 grain bullet with 11.6 gr of A#7 at 1300 fps = 4.29 ft lb recoil.

That runs about a 38% to 54% increase in recoil force produced by the 357 Sig.

AK103K · August 29, 2018, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 74A95

Of course the 357 Sig has more recoil than a 9mm in the same gun. The 357 Sig pushes the same bullet weight ~200 fps faster than the 9mm. That means more recoil.

Ive shot my share of both, and never really noticed a difference. As I said earlier if I hand you a 31 or a 17, and you didnt know which it was, I seriously doubt you could tell by the recoil when fired.

The problem with paper ballistics is, yes, one has bigger numbers than the other, but no one seems to be able to translate the differences, into anything of substance. Other than the numbers are "slightly" bigger, on paper. Ive not seen anything that shows that the slight difference does anything more. 357SIG when tested in gel, performs to the same standards as everything else.

As much as some seem to want it to be, there are no magic bullets. And thats especially true with handgun bullets. The only proper response with ANY of them when used in a "stopping" capacity, is to continue to shoot until the threat is down. Hit a switch, and the target goes down with any of them. Miss that switch, try again, and continue until to do so until you do.

If you feel better using the 357SIG for carry, and want to practice with 9mm, thats makes the practice part easy, and a lot cheaper. Go all out 9mm, and you save more money yet.

I seriously doubt anything you shoot with either, is going to know the difference.

August 28, 2018, 06:19 AM	#1
Roamin_Wade Junior member Join Date: July 11, 2018 Location: Baytown, TX Posts: 220	.357 Sig Question When I got into really studying the Firearms industry I surrounded myself with literature that taught me a lot. I learned that the 357 Sig round actually produces ballistics close to the venerable 357 Mag. It should be a preferred self defense round but at the large Gun store that I work in there is one box of .357 Sig hollow points. The only way we would have a pistol that shot the .357 Sig would be if we had a pistol get traded in. What in the blue hell is going on? We should also be sporting the 400 Corbon pistols too but we don’t. You can buy a .45 ACP pistol, order a .40 cal barrel to go in it and then buy some 400 Corbon’s, and use the same .45 magazine and have an even better round than the .357 Sig! Why aren’t we stepping up to these bad-to-the-bone rounds for self defense? What am I missing? What do I not understand?

August 28, 2018, 07:38 AM	#4
MandolinMan Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2013 Posts: 339	More power isn't always better. In general, people tend to shoot lighter recoiling calibers faster and more accurately than heavier recoiling calibers. Also, current data seems to suggests very little difference in terms of effectiveness between the most common defensive calibers. But find out for yourself. Get a shot timer and do some defensive drills shooting 357 sig and 9mm out of comparable pistols. __________________ " The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." Col. Jeff Cooper

August 28, 2018, 08:23 AM	#6
Onward Allusion Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2009 Location: Back in a Non-Free State Posts: 3,133	I love the 357 Sig round. It's what my EDC eats. Despite all the claims, +P 9mm can only come close to a high performance off the shelf 357 Sig round. To this day, I have not seen a 9mm round that comes close to 700 ft/lb from a full size pistol. Regarding recoil...try lifting weights and getting stronger. I'm not trying to be a D. I used to be extremely recoil sensitive after my heart surgery. I was a 155 lb weakling and a 12 year old could have kicked my butt. I started working out and am now in my best physical shape since my late teens. I have zero issues with recoil nowadays, even with 44 Mag. __________________ Simple as ABC . . . Always Be Carrying*

August 28, 2018, 11:48 AM	#12
CDW4ME Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2009 Posts: 1,321	I'm more comfortable with the extra KE of 357 Sig than 9mm, equivalent bullet design. 5 shot chrono averages from Lone Wolf 357 Sig Barrel in my Glock 22: Defacto Glock 31: Speer Gold Dot 125 @ 1,363 fps / 516# KE Federal HST 125 @ 1,385 fps / 533# KE Ranger T 125 @ 1,389 fps / 536# KE __________________ Strive to carry the handgun you would want anywhere, everywhere; forget that good area bullcrap. "Wouldn't want to / Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.

August 28, 2018, 10:51 PM	#15
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	The Sig round came out 4 years after the 40 S&W was introduced in 1990. By then the 40 had moved into first place as the law enforcement round of choice. So the 40 and the 9mm dominated leo use by the time it appeared. Very few departments chose to swap out their new 40 S&W chambered guns for the Sig round. The 357 Sig round was at first only chambered in the Sig P229 in 1994. In 1998 it was joined by the Glock 31. The P229 was more expensive than the Glocks. So in 1994, when introduced, law enforcement was reluctant to switch to a new ammo in more expensive guns. The guns that they were using 40 in were either S&W pistols or Glocks which were basically given away, at that time, to law enforcement. So little motivation to switch. 4 years later when the Glock 31 came out there was still little motivation. Especially as the 40 Glocks were having issues. The Sig round faded from view. It's tried to make a few comebacks but is not widely used. It's become a niche round. It's a very good round. I went to two local gun stores recently looking for some bullet weights other than 125 gr. for the Sig. None were in stock and only one or two brands of ammo in stock. I can order it sure, but it's a measure of where the round stands. But the 357 Sig is, compared to the 38 Casull, the 400 Cor-Bon or teh 9x23 Winchester wildly popular. tipoc __________________ 1. All guns are always loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot. 4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it.

August 28, 2018, 06:48 AM	#2
NAW Member Join Date: August 6, 2018 Location: Oregon Posts: 24	Recoil is the problem. Until handguns have counter recoil type actions, putting a hotter round in the platform causes too many problems for follow up shots. Muzzle flash and the blast from the muzzle shooting very hot rounds doesnt help at all with your situational awareness in a gun fight. It's like shooting a snub nose 357 magnum revolver. I bet you can make more hits on the target quickly by shooting 38 specials through it then you can by shooting the much more "powerful" 357 magnum through it.

August 28, 2018, 07:38 AM	#3
grinner Member Join Date: July 26, 2018 Posts: 52	357 Sig never took off, IMO, because most LE agencies adopted either the 9 mm or the .40 S&W. Sure, the Secret Service, Air Marshals, and some highway patrols (like Texas) adopted it, but not a lot of local agencies. And the Texas DPS has gone back to 9 mm. Thus, there is only a niche call for the round. I shot .357 Sig out of my P226 and enjoyed it. I also found it to be more accurate than 9mm. But I’m also used to the flash, bang, and recoil of .357 Magnum. Still, I’m not sure I would want to shoot it out of a small polymer gun, which is the most common carried pistol.

August 28, 2018, 07:49 AM	#5
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2001 Posts: 10,223	I was enamored with the 357SIG for a while there, until I realized that 9mm could give me similar ballistics with the right load, and the ammo was a lot cheaper, especially after that one ammo shortage. I had 5 SIG's and 1 Glock in the caliber. The SIG's seemed to hold up better to the round, the Glock was kind of beating itself to death, and it was the Glock that basically made my mind up to make the change. I had a 31 and a couple of 17's at the time, and the underside of the slide on the 31 was getting heavily peened, and had to be dressed up with a file a couple of times. The one 17 had more +P+ (same basic pressure as the 357) through it than the 31 had 357SIG, and it was barely showing finish wear in the same spot on the slide. My SIG's never really showed any signs of wear from the round, other than a couple, that had some chips in the anodizing on the frame rails. The recoil difference was not noticeable, and if I handed you a 31 and a 17 loaded with +P+(and +P+ isnt really much hotter feeling shooting wise than standard 9mm, to me anyway), I seriously doubt you could have told me which gun I handed you. The one noticeable thing I saw, was muzzle blast/bark. The 357 is louder. I never noticed flash to be an issue or even noticeable though, even when shooting indoors or in low light. That was with factory and my reloads. Ammo cost ended up being a big deal, as back when Obama got in and that one shortage took off, the cost more than doubled, and seemed to stay inflated. I was paying $250 a case for 357SIG back then (exact same price I was paying for .40S&W). Once things went nuts, 357SIG was approaching $600/1000. I actually made out like a bandit selling off my unopened cases of 357SIG. Basically doubled my money on most of it. I also loaded for it, and components were always historically higher. I actually didnt bother reloading for it until things went nuts, as the difference in price between my reloads and a box of factory (case price) was only a $1. Why bother. That changed when the prices shot up. Even then though, the component prices went up too. It was cheaper to reload, but it still wasnt cheap. 357SIG uses caliber specific bullets, and most 9mm bullets won't work right, due to bullet shape. Other than that, its not a big deal really. There were some dire warnings about neck tension and bullet set back, but if you use a compressed load, like the AA#9 load, that fills the case, set back is a non issue and neck tension isnt as much of an issue. I never had any problems there. I never lubed cases, and just used a .40 sizer die for the first step. One extra step, but no big deal. You do have to watch you dont get .40 cases mixed in. You can easily, and without notice, tour a .40 case into a sorta 357SIG. I had it hapen a couple of times, and they seemed to work OK, but as I understand it, the cases are different, and not just because of the OAL when sized. Theres really nothing wrong with the round, I think it was just one of those things, like the .45GAP, that were more of a niche/limited special use kind of round, that just didnt catch on. Most of the major caliber all perform to the same standard, so its not like they are some Hammer of Todd. I swithced over to 9mm, and never looed back. I get the same basic thing power wise with +P+, and ammo and components that are a lot cheaper.

August 28, 2018, 09:15 AM	#7
TailGator Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,787	I think the above issues, brought up by people with more experience than I with the round, are the reason that the round never caught on very strongly. Business considerations such as profit and inventory costs are the reasons that your boss didn't put the ammo or the guns on the shelf.

August 28, 2018, 09:39 AM	#8
Roamin_Wade Junior member Join Date: July 11, 2018 Location: Baytown, TX Posts: 220	I didn’t know that it’s report was a lot sharper than other rounds. Oh well, supply and demand always rules the day and if it’s dying out, there’s a reason for it. It is one bad ass round though. Thanks!

August 28, 2018, 10:51 AM	#9
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2001 Posts: 10,223	Its got a bit of a crack to it, but so does the 357MAG, and few others. I dont think its really a big deal. If I shot any of them, without hearing protection, hell, even a .22, Im not hearing anything for about a week, so for me, its a moot point. There really nothing wrong with it, and if it floats your boat, hey, have at it. Nothing learned, one way or the other, if you dont bother. Having had it, and living with it for a few years, I just think its sort of a one trick pony, and other things give a bit more versatility, and at a cheaper cost. I never disliked it, I just find I like other things better. I think it does pretty much what it set out to, and that was more or less duplicate the old 125 grain 357MAG load, that so many seem to think is the benchmark for this sort of thing. It comes pretty close. Then again, so does +P+ 9mm at the extreme end of its range. So does 125 grain 357MAG for that matter. I think whats more important, if you plan on using it for anything but fun, that whatever you choose, it should be something you shoot well with, are intimately familiar with, and shoot regularly with in practice. Id be more worried about someone with a .22LR, who did the above, than anyone with some wonder caliber, that just talks a lot about it.

August 28, 2018, 11:12 AM	#10
saleen322 Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2010 Posts: 778	As others have posted, the 9mm, doesn't need to be +P, delivers similar performance when it comes to penetration and even expansion. While the 357 Sig is a little better, it is not a big difference. All that said, the 357 Sig is a good round if you want to go that route.

August 28, 2018, 11:13 AM	#11
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	I always thought a 40cal Mp5 rebarreled to 357sig would be a great little subgun.

August 28, 2018, 02:01 PM	#13
pblanc Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 697	I have two SIG P229s chambered in .40 S&W and a 357 SIG barrel that I sometimes use in one or the other. The cartridge is fun to shoot and is certainly a potent self-defense cartridge but the question is whether it offers any real advantage over the alternatives. There are some things about the 357 SIG round that I know are true. 1. It is loud (in comparison with 9 mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP). 2. It is more expensive. For those who don't hand load, commercial FMJ practice ammo is going to cost more than .40 S&W and a lot more than 9 mm Luger. If you can buy on-line and especially in bulk, you might be able to get FMJ 357 SIG ammo for about the same price as .45 ACP. If you have to buy locally, it is almost certainly going to be the most expensive of the four calibers mentioned, if you can find it at all. JHP self-defense 357 SIG can often be found at prices comparable to the other calibers, but the selection is more limited. 3. It has more muzzle flash. The muzzle flash might be a significant drawback if you have to shoot in dim lighting and the louder report might be if you have to shoot indoors without hearing protection. Balanced against these drawbacks are some alleged advantages. 1. The bottleneck cartridge is less likely to cause feed issues. I really don't see this as much of a deal. None of my .40 S&W pistols has ever had any feed issues so I can't improve on 100%. 2. The cartridge might have better barrier penetration than .40 S&W. Allegedly, this is a big part of the reason that it was used by Federal Air Marshals (who might need to shoot through airplane seats and partitions) and Secret Service (who might need to shoot through vehicle doors and windows). In most civilian SD scenarios, better barrier penetration might not be an advantage. 3. Being a higher velocity cartridge, it will shoot flatter at distance. This will only become significant at ranges over 25 yards. Again, probably won't be an advantage in most civilian SD scenarios. 4. It delivers more kinetic energy. Here is where the fur starts to fly. Those individuals who believe that kinetic energy deposit is the Holy Grail of handgun terminal ballistics embrace 357 SIG even through its performance in ballistic gel with regards to penetration and expansion is no better than that of some 9 mm loads and inferior (wrt expanded diameter) to .40 S&W loads. Commercially available 357 SIG JHP loads have about the same momentum as .40 S&W loads. There are a lot of 357 SIG fans who claim that damage to small animals they have shot with 357 SIG is more extensive than with 9 mm or .40 S&W. There are also a lot of anecdotal reports of animals going down more quickly with 357 SIG. I don't shoot animals, so I can't comment. 5. I have heard some comment that 357 SIG is easier to shoot than .40 S&W. I don't find this to be the case. Perhaps that is because I have shot a lot more .40 S&W than 357 SIG. I would say the recoil characteristics are similar, but different. I find 357 SIG tends to have a sharper jab-like push straight back into the hand whereas .40 S&W has a little more muzzle rise. Either definitely has more recoil than 9 mm Luger in a similar size and weight pistol. Here are some ballistic gel tests of 357 SIG JHP loads which can be compared to 9 mm Luger or .40 S&W tests using the same protocol: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/357-sig-gel-test/ Paul Harrell is also good for entertainment, if nothing else: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrcSO5wErJw I am a fan of .40 S&W. I have been looking for one or more definite advantages of 357 SIG over .40 S&W to compensate for what I see as its definite disadvantages (flash, noise, cost) and I have yet to find any convincing ones for civilian SD use. I think part of the reason we haven't seen more use of 357 SIG is that others have basically come to the same conclusion.

August 28, 2018, 06:23 PM	#14
Red Devil Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2010 Posts: 274	Like the .357 SIG... but as a woods round - with heavy bullets and a longer Bbl. Have a LWD 5.3" conversion Bbl for my GLOCK G23.4 and it really shoots the HDY Custom 147 gr. XTP and 140 gr. S&B FMJ-FP nice. >1300 fps at the muzzle and a much better burn rate, most of the flash and bang are gone and they penetrate ~ 24" in gel. For SD/HD, prefer the subsonic .40/180 gr's or .45 ACP/230 gr's. Red

August 29, 2018, 05:28 AM	#16
Roamin_Wade Junior member Join Date: July 11, 2018 Location: Baytown, TX Posts: 220	With the 357 Sig basically born from a necked down 40 S&W and getting such outstanding performance, I wonder why the cousin 400 Corbon has never been available in many Guns. I mean, at least the 357 Sig got a chance of catching on but the bad ass 400 Corbon, as far as I know, has only been something someone with a 45 pistol could create by simply buying a 40 cal barrel for their 45. It’s supposed to be able to use the the same mags too. As far as the lack of popularity that the 357 Sig is seeing I would still not hesitate to buy one for SD. If it’s just for protection then 100 rounds of practice ammo and 25 rounds of HP ammo would go a long way, lasting a long time. Folks do the same sort of thing with their 357 Mag’s by shooting 38’s for practice because they are cheaper and then loading the 357 Mag ammo for carry protection. I’m sure there is folks out there that do exactly that with their 357 Sig’s.

August 29, 2018, 06:07 PM	#19
dontcatchmany Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 2010 Posts: 460	I like 357 Sig, but I have other calibers that are good also. I have two 357 Sig barrels. One is for a Glock 27, the other one is for an FNS 40 or FNX 40. The 357 Sig currently resides in the FNX 40 and is used as a truck gun. The first time I shot one of the FNs with the 357 Sig was at a range and on a lark I shot it at a tree approximately 100 yds away. I was shocked that the round was only several inches from my aiming poing. The round is very accurate in the FNs and I like it in the G27. The FNs and the Glock also have 9mm barrels and mags. I like the versatility of several calibers in on gun. I also totally enjoy 40 S&W. The recoil/flip of 40 or 357 Sig is not a big problem to me. I checked my ammo supply of 357 Sig and I have 800 rds of FMJ and 70-80 of Speer Gold Dot and about a half box of Winchester JHP. I purchase most of my ammo for all calibers that I shoot in bulk online. Now you folks have gotten me to look into a 400 Carbone barrel for my FNX45...dang you!

August 29, 2018, 06:16 PM	#20
Bottom Gun Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1998 Location: Arizona Territory Posts: 1,092	The .357 Sig is a great cartridge but bullet variety and ammo availability are lacking and factory ammo is expensive. You really have to be a reloader to take full advantage of the cartridge. __________________ NRA Life Member Mechanical engineers have their moments.

August 29, 2018, 07:12 PM	#21
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,809	In the real world 357 Sig doesn't do anything 9mm+P won't do. The better 9mm loads will match 4" 357 mag loads and beat 357 mag loads from barrels shorter than 4". The 357 Sig will match 357 mag from 6" barrels. Just not that much better. When you factor in less mag capacity, greater expense, and more recoil it is no surprise that 357 Sig is never going to be a popular round. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill