Question about mailing shotgun

[gaige]

I have been reading all over the internet and cannot find a solution to my problem anywhere. I was living in Nevada with a roommate, I am now living in Austin Texas. My shotguns are still in my old room and my question is can I have my roommate ship my shotguns to my new address? I read that I could ship them to myself in another state, but I am not in Nevada and cannot mail them, can my roommate mail them to me?

[dogtown tom]

gaige I have been reading all over the internet and cannot find a solution to my problem anywhere. I was living in Nevada with a roommate, I am now living in Austin Texas. My shotguns are still in my old room and my question is can I have my roommate ship my shotguns to my new address? I read that I could ship them to myself in another state, but I am not in Nevada and cannot mail them, can my roommate mail them to me?

No, he cannot, it would be a felony on him for shipping and a felony by you for receiving.

He can ship them to a licensed dealer in Texas, who will transfer them to you.

Read the sticky:http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=539529

[gaige]

ok thank you

[TXAZ]

We recently left Austin, but did business there with FFL Mike Cargill, a good guy.
He runs www.centraltexasgunworks.com, a full service FFL with good rates and service.

Good luck!

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by gaige

...I was living in Nevada with a roommate, I am now living in Austin Texas. My shotguns are still in my old room and my question is can I have my roommate ship my shotguns to my new address? I read that I could ship them to myself in another state, but I am not in Nevada and cannot mail them, can my roommate mail them to me?

You have the correct answer. The answer is "no."

Since it's an issue that comes up regularly, let's look at why.

letting someone in another State have possession of "your" gun (or leaving your gun with someone when you move to another State) is highly problematic under federal law.

The federal laws relating to the transfer of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another (i. e., the Gun Control Act of 1968 or GCA68) are about physical possession, not ownership. GCA68 was Congress' responding to enormous public pressure after the assassinations by gunfire of three wildly popular public figures -- JFK, RFK and MLK. The law was intended to regulate and control the interstate transfer of firearms. It was structured so that to the extent reasonably possible any transfer of possession of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another would have to go through an FFL.

And in the context of the concerns intended to be addressed by Congress through GCA68, it's possession and not ownership that matters. Someone who has a gun in his possession can use it, whether or not he has legal title to it.

Letting someone have possession of your gun in that person's State of residence will be considered a transfer. It certainly is under federal law, and would also most likely be also considered a transfer under state laws. That's just what "transfer" means.

1. In general, any transfer of a firearm from a resident of one State to a resident of another must go through an FFL who will follow all usual formalities (e. g., completion of the 4473). There are a few limited, narrow, specific exceptions: if you have an appropriate federal firearms license; inheritance by will or intestate succession; or a loan (subject to a number of limitations which will be discussed in more detail below).
   
   
2. The applicable federal statutes are: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922 (b)(3). The full texts of those statutes may be found here.
   
   
3. The federal laws I've cited are about possession, not necessarily ownership.
   
   
   1. Possession means:

      1 a : the act of having or taking into control...

   2. Transfer is about possession, not ownership.
      
      Some definitions of "transfer" (emphasis added):
      
      
      • http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/transfer:

        ...Transfer encompasses the sale and every other method, direct or indirect, of (1) disposing of property or an interest therein or possession thereof;...

      • http://www.thefreedictionary.com/transferred:

        2. Law To make over the possession or legal title of; convey.

      • http://law.yourdictionary.com/transfer:

        Any and every method of removing something from one person or place to another; specifically, the handing over of possession or control of assets or title. ...

      
      
   3. Let's look at the statutes:
      
      
      1. 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

         (a) It shall be unlawful—
         ...
         
         (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...

      2. And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

         (a) It shall be unlawful—
         ...
         
         (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides..;

      
      
   4. Note carefully the words of those statutes. Words, like "transport", "receive", "obtained", "transfer", "give", "transport", and "deliver" do not necessarily imply ownership and include possession. They will be read and applied by a court according to their ordinary meanings. See Perrin v. United States, 444 U.S. 37 (United States Supreme Court, 1979), at 42:

      ...A fundamental canon of statutory construction is that, unless otherwise defined, words will be interpreted as taking their ordinary, contemporary, common meaning...

   
   
4. So you move from State A and become a resident of State B. You left your guns behind with your buddy, a resident of State A. Those guns are now in his possession. Your taking possession of those guns would now be a transfer from him, a resident of State A, to you, a resident of State B. Since it's a transfer of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another, federal law requires that it go through an FFL.
   
   
5. With regard to loans under GCA68, let's look at the applicable statutes again:
   
   
   1. 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

      (a) It shall be unlawful—
      ...
      
      (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...

   2. And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

      (a) It shall be unlawful—
      ...
      
      (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
      

      (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest ..., and
      
      (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

      ..

   3. So under federal law a resident of one State may loan a gun to a resident of another State, but only temporarily and only for a lawful sporting purpose.
      
      
      1. Temporary means:

         
         : continuing for a limited amount of time : not permanent
         
         : intended to be used for a limited amount of time

      2. Sporting means (in this context):

         ...of, relating to, used, or suitable for sport...

      3. Purpose means (in this context):

         : the reason why something is done or used : the aim or intention of something

      
      
   4. So a court is likely to look at the "temporary loan for a lawful sporting purpose" exception to the prohibition on interstate transfers to apply when a gun is loaned so that the person it's been loaned to can engage in a specific sporting activity (i. e., a hunt, a competition, etc.) of limited duration. "Temporary" would refer to the duration of that activity. Such an interpretation would be consistent with the common meanings of the words used in the statutes and the underlying purpose (controlling interstate transfers of firearms) of GCA68.
      
      
   5. So you may go to another State where (under 18 USC 922(a)(5)), a friend may loan you a gun to, for example, go target shooting together, or an outfitter may rent you a gun for a guided hunt. But since there is no applicable "loan" exception in 18 USC 922(a)(3), a loan of a firearm may not cross state lines to the borrower's State of residence.
   
   
6. Can't you store your gun with someone in another State?
   
   
   1. Leaving a gun with someone in another State clearly raises interstate transfer problems when that person has access to the gun.
      
      
   2. One possible way to avoid the problem would be to secure the gun or guns in a locked case or similar container to which only you have the key or combination.
      
      
   3. That might avoid the transfer problem inherent in having someone store your guns, ATF has advised here that one may ship a firearm to himself in care of another person in another State.
      
      Specifically ATF has said (emphasis added):

      6. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?
      

      Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner must not open the package or take possession of the firearm.

   
   
7. Note that violations of federal law regarding interstate transfers are punishable by up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine; and since the crime is a felony one will lose his gun rights for the rest of his life.

[carguychris]

I would just do what Dogtown suggested. If it's going to a FFL, the shotgun can legally go via U.S. mail,* which makes it reasonably inexpensive to ship.

*CAVEAT: This assumes that it is NOT an NFA SBS/AOW or a pistol-grip-only (PGO) shotgun. The former is subject to transfer taxes and so forth. The latter is considered an "Other Firearm" and may not be transferred outside of the recipient's state of residence, or mailed by a non-FFL (a PGO shotgun is basically treated like a handgun by the ATF and USPS).

[EDIT: The post to which I was responding was deleted while this post was being written, so this post has been pared down.]

[Frank Ettin]

A couple of members suggested that the OP go and pick up the guns. Those posts have been deleted because doing so would still violate federal law. It would still be an illegal interstate transfer from a resident of one State to a resident of another.

[Sarge]

They're his guns, Frank. Any reason he can't simply go pick up his own property?

[Aguila Blanca]

I'm not Frank, but he answered this question in his lengthy post above:

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

Since it's an issue that comes up regularly, let's look at why.

letting someone in another State have possession of "your" gun (or leaving your gun with someone when you move to another State) is highly problematic under federal law.

The federal laws relating to the transfer of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another (i. e., the Gun Control Act of 1968 or GCA68) are about physical possession, not ownership. GCA68 was Congress' responding to enormous public pressure after the assassinations by gunfire of three wildly popular public figures -- JFK, RFK and MLK. The law was intended to regulate and control the interstate transfer of firearms. It was structured so that to the extent reasonably possible any transfer of possession of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another would have to go through an FFL.

And in the context of the concerns intended to be addressed by Congress through GCA68, it's possession and not ownership that matters. Someone who has a gun in his possession can use it, whether or not he has legal title to it.

Letting someone have possession of your gun in that person's State of residence will be considered a transfer. It certainly is under federal law, and would also most likely be also considered a transfer under state laws. That's just what "transfer" means.

What I think Frank is saying is that the guns have now been de facto transferred to the friend who has custody/possession. For the OP to reclaim them will be another transfer, but now across state lines.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Sarge

They're his guns,....

Why do you think that matters? And are we sure?

I've cited the relevant federal statutes. Can you cite some legal authority to the effect that my reading of those federal statutes, as I outlined in detail in post 5, is not correct?

Note also that until the last election, when apparently the OP left the gun with his roommate, private firearms transaction did not require any formalities. Now the voters of Nevada has adopted a universal background check, so under that law, once it become effective, leaving guns behind as the OP did would also probably be an illegal transfer under Nevada law.

Originally Posted by Sarge

....Any reason he can't simply go pick up his own property?

Yes, and I explained it all in post 5. Can you cite any legal authority challenging my reading of the federal statutes I cited?

[Sarge]

Jesus. The opening post reads:

I was living in Nevada with a roommate, I am now living in Austin Texas. My shotguns are still in my old room...

OP, email the Attorney General in your home Nevada, explain the circumstances and ask if you can drive back and pick up your own firearms. That's the advice you should have gotten in the first place.

His opinion will be the one that matters. Not mine or anybody else's here.

[dogtown tom]

Sarge Jesus. The opening post reads:

What part of OWNERSHIP DOES NOT MATTER do you not get?
Legal possession of a firearm has absolutely nothing to do with ownership.
Legal transfer of a firearm has absolutely nothing to do with ownership.

OP, email the Attorney General in your home Nevada, explain the circumstances and ask if you can drive back and pick up your own firearms. That's the advice you should have gotten in the first place.

What the AG of Nevada thinks doesn't matter one bit. It's FEDERAL law/ATF regulations that regulate interstate transfers of firearms.

His opinion will be the one that matters. Not mine or anybody else's here.

While I agree that your opinion matters little. You should note that Frank posted the relevant citations from ATF regulations.....you haven't posted anything but a legally incorrect personal opinion.

You should stop posting because you don't really know one bit about Federal gun law.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Sarge

OP, email the Attorney General in your home Nevada, explain the circumstances and ask if you can drive back and pick up your own firearms. That's the advice you should have gotten in the first place.

His opinion will be the one that matters. Not mine or anybody else's here.

Hogwash. In fact, that's perhaps the most ignorant hogwash I've seen you post here.

1. Nevada is not the OP's home. His home is now Austin, Texas.
   
   
2. The Attorney General of the State of Nevada is legal counsel to the State of Nevada. He is not the OP's legal counsel. Attorneys general do not provide legal advice to individuals.
   
   
3. This is a matter of federal law. A state attorney general is not an authoritative source of information on federal law.

If the OP wants reliable legal advice he needs to hire a lawyer knowledgeable in this area, provide complete information to his lawyer, and pay for a fully researched legal opinion.

[Aguila Blanca]

Sarge, think of it this way: When you take -- or ship -- a firearm to a gunsmith for repair or modification, nobody questions that it's your firearm. Even though it's your firearm, when it arrives at the gunsmith's place of business he enters it into his bound book -- it's a record of a transfer from you to him. If you used a local FFL to facilitate the shipment, then the gun goes into the local FFL's bound book when you turn it over to him, and then he writes it out when he ships it to the gunsmith. The gunsmith then enters it into HIS bound book upon receipt, and he writes it out when he ships it back. If it gets shipped back through the local FFL, once again he enters it into his bound book upon receipt, and then writes it out when you pick it up.

And throughout all these bound book entries (transfers), it was always YOUR firearm, and nobody ever tried to claim it was anything other than your firearm.

[NJgunowner]

This thread kind of got silly. It'd probably be more expensive to drive to Nevada to pick them up than it would to have his old roommate ship them to a FFL in Austin. Just pay the transfer fee and move on

[Frank Ettin]

A bunch more useless/worthless posts (and a couple of now unnecessary responses to them) have been deleted.

I'm closing this before any more garbage gets posted.

The OP has the answer he needs in posts 2, 5, 6, and 15.