Penetration~357 sig vs. 45 acp

[Smoke Screen]

Hey everyone, recently having a discussion w a few buddies over the penetration advantages of 45 acp vs 357 sig. Particularly through something like a car door/windshield etc... your insights would be appreciated!

[yadkin]

jacketed bullets wether total are hollow point will deflect off windshilds if it has a great slant ie. say a ford mustang rear window as for car doors the sig round should do fine at close range as also the 45 thery are many contributing factors is the window rolled down, how old the vehicle is ie. 50's and 60's the metal is thicker and stronger, also depends on the 45 round say standard military ball at 830 to 850 fps may not penatrate as far as the sig round but a nice 230 gr. FMJ at about 920 FPS should outpeform the sig round, it has been a while since I have done these test but I have personally seen a 357 mag AP round deflect of a rear window of an old ford 500 from omly 2 feet distance my money is on the old war horse round 100 percent any day of the week

[Evil Monkey]

no difference.

There are videos on youtube showing 380acp doing work with no problem.

[AK103K]

I had just the opposite results, but with 9mm (ball) against .45acp (GI ball). That was back in the 70's, against 1960-1970 era cars. The 9mm out penetrated the .45 in all cases, and in some, by a lot. Some of the .45's didnt make it through the doors, and were stopped by the then somewhat new, steel crash guards being installed. Many of the 9mm's made it through both doors, and the plywood "target" that was sitting on the seat. All of them made it through the widows, but those shots were square on, and not at a glancing angle.

Ive shot a good bit of 357SIG, but not into cars. From what Ive seen with it, its more or less just 9mm +P+, so I would expect similar penetration. Its one of the reasons I dropped the 357SIG, and went back to 9mm.

[Sevens]

It seems to me that if you're shooting at cars or windshields/safety glass, you could line up 20 for each and get more different results than you could possibly stand or even wish to try and glean much of a trend from.

9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly and that adds up to penetration. The .45 is bigger, much slower, and while it's weight helps it to penetrate, it's size & speed do NOT.

If you take a .357 Sig, you're adding like THREE HUNDRED fps to a 9mm slug, so you're adding a LOT. But if you truly want to penetrate hard barriers, you'll do best with a totally different slug in your ammo than you would if you simply carried top-notch two-legged defense ammo.

As to the topic...
Any time spent shooting at a car is, in many (most?!) cases extremely important time that is much better spent attempting to get out of the path of a 4,000-pound machine that is just really not going to be stopped by a handgun.

[AK103K]

Any time spent shooting at a car is, in many (most?!) cases extremely important time that is much better spent attempting to get out of the path of a 4,000-pound machine that is just really not going to be stopped by a handgun.

I agree, if the car is moving. Not all cars/trucks are moving, and are often used as cover. It helps to know if your round is likely to defeat that cover, if it should arise. I know I would prefer to be behind that engine block/wheel, than just behind the doors.

[Sevens]

Totally agree with what you said, but again...
You could carry multiple colored magazines with different kinds of ammo for different specific jobs but that's impractical.

It would be a better idea to have one gun that's quick access for people in front of you with no barriers -- and a whole other gun loaded with AP if you can get it, and draw that if it's going to be time to shoot at them through a car door or bank vault.

Just saying that it's difficult to cover all possible scenarios with ammo that is best for each scenario. A rifle trumps the 9mm, .357 Sig and .45 but it's also probably not the answer here.

[T. O'Heir]

"...and are often used as cover..." Cars are concealment not cover unless you're in just the right spot behind the engine block. Anyway, the entire issue depends on what bullet is being fired.
A 9mm or .45 FMJ may or may not penetrate the steel. Most likely go through one side but not the other. An HP, out of either, will simply break up. HP's aren't made for penetration. Ditto for a .357 Sig. It being very close to the same as a 9mm.

[Evil Monkey]

9mm or .45 FMJ may or may not penetrate the steel. Most likely go through one side but not the other.

I hope you're talking about the engine block and not the car door. Otherwise you are talking non sense.

[skizzums]

I can't speak for .45, but 9mm will penetrate the heck out of a flimsy car door. and .357 should be an even better penetrator. as for the windshield, it can change its course by a few degrees, but I haven't seen a video where ANY centerfire bullet actually gets deflected by a windshield. .380 to 45 all seem to punch right through on the first try.

[tipoc]

You can read about a lot of this here...at the "Box-O-Truth" windshields, inside out, outside in, car doors, etc.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/tag/buick-of-truth/

tipoc

[Smoke Screen]

Sweet, awesome responses guys! Ueah, this was from the point of view of understanding if you can defeat a suspects cover. For example, in movies, the cops always hide behind empty steel oil drums, but even a .22 will go through that "cover". Ive only seen a few depictions where the guys will actually shoot through a cinderblock wall to nail the bad guys on the other side. Many private and speciality civilian gun ranges that offer battle engagement scenarios will use just the car door as cover as well...

[bedbugbilly]

I doubt that anyone on the "receiving end" of either of those cartridges is going to recognize any difference . . . .

[481]

I doubt that either the .45 ACP or the .357SIG would have any trouble getting through a car door since it is typically 20 gauge mild steel -about a millimeter thick or four hundredths of an inch. Quite frankly, I think that windshields are harder on bullets than the thin steel found in car doors.

[CDW4ME]

Interesting info from an ammo maker, Federal / Speer:
http://le.atk.com/wound_ballistics/l...omparison.aspx

Bare Gel:
357 Sig 125 gr Gold Dot: 14'' / .61
45 acp 230 gr. Gold Dot: 13'' / .71

Heavy Clothed Gel:
357 Sig 125 gr Gold Dot: 18.3'' / .53
45 acp 230 gr. Gold Dot: 13.6'' / .69

IWBA heavy clothing:
357 Sig 125 gr Gold Dot: 17.5'' / .53
45 acp 230 gr. Gold Dot: 14.5'' / .67

Steel:
357 Sig 125 gr Gold Dot: 18.7'' / .47
45 acp 230 gr. Gold Dot: 19.4'' / .51

Glass:
357 Sig 125 gr Gold Dot: 15.4'' / .52
45 acp 230 gr. Gold Dot: 13.1'' / .60

[std7mag]

Seems to me that both will make a big hole.

Both are used almost exclusively in semi-autos. (I said almost!!)

Hence if I need the first shot to go destroy your cover, and the second to get you, then so be it...

[tipoc]

I doubt that either the .45 ACP or the .357SIG would have any trouble getting through a car door since it is typically 20 gauge mild steel -about a millimeter thick or four hundredths of an inch. Quite frankly, I think that windshields are harder on bullets than the thin steel found in car doors.

It's also a fact that most modern truck and auto doors are not steel but either aluminum or polymer. In many cases you can punch through them with a screw driver. It's only the internal braces or the motors for the windows that pose any problem to a bullet.

Glass is tougher but if the angle is a good one even a .22 l.r. will penetrate auto glass.

Some were surprised some years back when IIRC Federal Air Marshalls were armed with Sigs in .357 Sig while on airplanes. They chose a round that penetrates well. If you think of a gunfight aboard a plane you'd want a round that penetrates very well through both people and things, like bulkheads and seats.

tipoc

[Roadkill2228]

I think the old soviet 7.62x25 tokarev round would leave both the .357 sig and the .45 acp in the dust. I've shot one a few times and they're super cheap fun guns, but in all seriousness, there is a video on YouTube demonstrating the tokarev round out-penetrating a .357 magnum!

[jmr40]

The 357 mag was invented because LE officers in the 1920's and 30's were getting poor performance with 38's and 45's when shooting at bad guys in cars.

The US military conducted trials right after WW-2 ended and concluded that 9mm beat 45 by a wide margin at defeating barriers such as GI helmets.

It has long been known that 9mm would defeat much of the lighter body armor much better than 45.

A 357 Sig is just a souped up 9mm. I don't see how it would do worse than 9mm.

Granted that is old info and some things may have changed a little. But generally a smaller caliber bullet at high velocity will penetrate hard barriers much better than large caliber slower bullets. We're talking about FMJ or hardcast lead, not HP ammo.

[JD0x0]

I think the old soviet 7.62x25 tokarev round would leave both the .357 sig and the .45 acp in the dust.

I have some doubt about it leaving the .357 sig in the dust.


The .357 sig is basically a 7.62x25 on steroids.


.357 sig is capable of launching a 115 grain bullet @ ~1550FPS
.30 tokarev is capable of launching a 85 grain from ~1230-1700FPS depending on ammo and bbl length.

sectional density of a .310 cal 85 grain bullet = .126
Sectional density of a .355 cal 115 grain bullet = .130

slightly heavier for caliber bullet at a comparable velocity. If you compared equal bullet weights, .357 sig will likely be faster.

Buffalo bore has heavier 124 grain loads that claim 1425FPS, which is quite fast for that bullet weight. They dont have any 115 grain loads, but I'm sure you could probably work up a 110-115 grain load to match the 7.62x25's fastest pistol velocities, in .357sig

Vihtavuori has 95 grain loads touching 1700FPS in .357 sig
http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/reloadi.../-357-sig.html

[SSGN_Doc]

Another factor is bullet construction:

Jacket material
Jacket thickness
Bonded or unbonded
Jacket design (tapered vs. reverse tapered.)

A 9mm bullet with a thin non bonded jacket may penetrate ok at 9mm velocities that do not cause the jacket to fail or separate. However, if you push that same bullet a little faster the bullet may come apart in less distance, leaving smaller fragments which do not penetrate as far. Even bonded bullets may penetrate less in ordnance gelletin or actual tissue just because the bullet expands more rapidly and increases its drag coefficient earlier. Since most .357 Sig loads just use existing 9mm bullets that were designed to work in a velocity range that is up to 20% lower, there can be higher jacket failure rates, and higher expansion rates than when operating in the designed velocity envelope. If manufacturers built projectiles specifically for .357 Sig, it could be a bigger penetrator, at least with HP ammo.
Some folks may even prefer having less penetration, and more violent expansion that the 9mm bullets offer.

Just food for thought.

[riflemen]

I see and hear this conversation a lot and it never gets anywhere constructive, lol...

I see some say that 9mm is equal to 357sig? I see it differently..

9mm+P 124gr XTP jhp is 1225/413ft lbs

http://www.underwoodammo.com/9mmluge...ntboxof20.aspx

357 sig 124gr XTP jhp is 1407/604ft lbs

http://www.underwoodammo.com/357sig1...ntboxof20.aspx

Now that is a plus P 9mm, I used Kevin Underwoods ammo because he is one of the guys that has done the research and loads rounds to their capability {safely and reliably}, mixing manufacturers and bullet types won't show you much , but 124gr xtp vs 124gr xtp gives you a real idea of what each round is capable of...

NOW, if you are looking for a target and defense gun, 357 may get expensive to shoot and 9mm could be a better way to go, BUT if you are looking for a defense weapon, I think the 357 shoots better, is more accurate, feels like its softer shooting, and has more power.... That is one of my favorite defense calibers, I also like the 400 corbon when properly loaded {kevin loads this better than Corbon themselves believe it or not} 1500fps 675 ft lbs!!! I chrono'd these and came up with 1570 fps out of my 1911 {ported barrel}!!!

http://www.underwoodammo.com/400cor-...ntboxof50.aspx

If you are really worried about penetration and want to be able to blow through doors windshields, ect then grab a glock 21, a lone wolf 40 super barrel kit, and a box of these http://www.underwoodammo.com/40Super...etboxof50.aspx that will get you almost 900 ft lbs I am sure she will penetrate just fine...

a friend of mine {I know him from the range} has that setup, and I can tell you it shoots strong, BUT thats the issue, lol, its got SOME BANG, and follow up shots are not fun, same goes for some 10mm I have shot, you have to factor in much more than power, otherwise we would all carry 454 casull or 460 Sw {2100fbs 2000ft lbs...}

[saleen322]

Sectional density is usually the best predictor of penetration with the same bullet construction at similar velocity.

The 357 Sig with a 124 grain bullet would have a SD of about 0.141
The 45 Auto with a 230 would have a SD of 0.161

The Sig will be going faster but the HP bullet discussed would likely expand causing the SD to drop drastically. A 45 Auto with a 230 FMJ would hold a decided edge in SD as it is much less likely to expand but it has a lower velocity which would work against it but I don't know if it would be enough to keep it from beating the Sig. However make the 45 a HP as well and it would change the results.

FWIW, a 9mm with a 147 FMJ (0.167 SD) would likely beat both if you are only looking at penetration. YMMV

[P71pilot]

The facts are, people, that velocity will win for hard targets such as metal etc... But the slow and heavy projectiles are better at penetrating soft targets. I bet you a +p standard weight .45 would out penetrate a +p standard weight 9mm parabellum in meat/tissue. A 7.62x25 round will penetrate hard obstacle better than either but I bet it wouldn't fare as well if shot into a big hunk of meat

[cougar gt-e]

P71pilot, save your money and don't do that bet. Toks were known to pass through 2 soldiers in ww2.



From thehighroad

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-243642.html

December 27, 2006, 06:54 PM
Cartridge: 85gr Sellier and Bellot FMJ

Firearm: CZ-52 with 4.6" barrel length

Block calibration: 593 ft/sec and 10.3cm penetration

Single shot was fired to the center of the block from a distance of 6 feet. Bullet impacted the block at 1510 ft/sec, penetrated 16.0" of ballistic gelatin, 10" of polyester bullet arresting box (roughly equivalent to 12" of ballistic gelatin), and 1.5" of loose-packed 'play sand'.

Bullet penetrated to 7.0" in the gelatin, when it began to tumble. Bullet apparently 'righted itself', traveling base forward from 14.5" onwards. Interestingly, the bullet was recovered from the playsand, in a sideways attitude - indicating that it had once again started to tumble sometime after exit from the ballistic gelatin. Bullet was recovered with no deformation present.

I would like to thank JohnKSa for lending me the gun and providing the ammunition that was utilized in the test. If you found this information helpful, please let him know. It was quite a bear for both of us to get the shipping and such organized at this time of the year.

Thank you,

JE223
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachmen...1&d=1167259902
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachmen...1&d=1167259902