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Old July 21, 2017, 07:35 AM   #51
Lohman446
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AGTMAN's post got me to thinking,

There was actually a very old German court case that hinged on a simplistic idea. "There is the right and there is the wrong. Never need the right yield to the wrong." Someone trying to force their way into your home or force you where you do not want to go is, with some exception, likely of ill-intent.

The comment on cheating and winning reminded me of some basis rules of non-consensual unarmed combat: A) Arm yourself and B) win
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Old July 21, 2017, 09:00 PM   #52
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The "best tactic" is to avoid being taken at all costs.
This statement contains too many absolutes for me to fully agree with it, but I have to admit that my position isn't far from it at all.

The potential outcomes for being taken prisoner in your own home with your family are pretty horrendous. Preventing a home invasion from being successful by breaking it up in the early moments, even at a relatively high cost, makes a lot of sense.
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Old July 24, 2017, 09:42 PM   #53
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From what I've read in various places, and from the more recent news reports, the most likely targets of home invasions are those who are known to have cash or easily fenced valuables. When the stats say that the perpetrators are known to the victims, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's relatives, close friends, or business associates. If I remember correctly, Massad Ayoob made that point in one of his books - the perpetrator may be the supermarket bag boy who sees the victim always paying in cash; the clean up crew member who notes that the store owner takes the more valuable jewelry home with him, etc. These are all "known" but not close.
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Old July 25, 2017, 06:19 AM   #54
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From what I've read in various places, and from the more recent news reports, the most likely targets of home invasions are those who are known to have cash or easily fenced valuables. When the stats say that the perpetrators are known to the victims, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's relatives, close friends, or business associates. If I remember correctly, Massad Ayoob made that point in one of his books - the perpetrator may be the supermarket bag boy who sees the victim always paying in cash; the clean up crew member who notes that the store owner takes the more valuable jewelry home with him, etc. These are all "known" but not close.
Good point(s).
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Old July 25, 2017, 01:45 PM   #55
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. . . Or the pizza delivery person who sees you pay with a wad of cash. The fewer outsiders know about you the better.
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Old July 25, 2017, 05:55 PM   #56
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Honestly though, I've heard of just as many 'wrong address' break in's from some meth head who's 'sure' you're loaded with cash somewhere. Heck even the police kick in the wrong door fairly often...
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Old July 25, 2017, 06:03 PM   #57
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JoeSixPack wrote:
You're never gonna know the "kidnappers" motives.
I'm not?

I assert I certainly will - and I'll not only know it, but I'll likely know it in the opening seconds of the event. What's more is that in the same post you tell me I'm "never gonna know" their motives, you proceed to tell me exactly how I will know what their motives are.

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My opinion is anyone wanting me to go with them instead of demanding property.. it ain't about money.. it's YOU they want...
Robbery versus Murder, sure sounds like motives to me.

Last edited by hdwhit; July 25, 2017 at 06:11 PM.
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Old July 25, 2017, 06:10 PM   #58
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Lohman446 wrote:
...old German court case...
In the United States, the decisions of foreign courts may be considered for their persuasive power, but they have no precedential authority. In pretty much every state, the legislatures have specified the circumstances under which deadly force may be used and the courts in those states have created a body of caselaw applying those statutes to specific instances.
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Old July 25, 2017, 07:29 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by hdwhit View Post
I'm not?

I assert I certainly will - and I'll not only know it, but I'll likely know it in the opening seconds of the event. What's more is that in the same post you tell me I'm "never gonna know" their motives, you proceed to tell me exactly how I will know what their motives are.



Robbery versus Murder, sure sounds like motives to me.
I didn't say murder, maybe.. and especially if you're a women they have worse things in mind for you.

But ya got me, Maybe you're worthy of ransom.. or maybe they'll just keep you captive and run you to atm to atm.. who knows what happens in the end.

You've uncovered my flawed logic.. by all means if a strange van pulls up and offers you candy go with them.
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Old Yesterday, 07:59 AM   #60
thallub
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Preventing a home invasion from being successful by breaking it up in the early moments, even at a relatively high cost, makes a lot of sense.
Well said!!! Home invaders/kidnappers are not benevolent guys with your best interest at heart. Take the fight to the home invaders/kidnappers right up front.

Decades ago my wife and i survived two home invasions. The first home invasion was by two career criminals who followed my wife home from work. They wanted her body.

Scumbags kicked in the front door, whereupon my wife shot the first one between the eyes with a .357 magnum. A piece of his skull the size of a half dollar was lying in the entrance way. i grabbed a loaded 16 gauge shotgun and shot the second guy who was trying to get his gun into play. He died in prison many years later.
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Old Yesterday, 09:33 AM   #61
Lohman446
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In the United States, the decisions of foreign courts may be considered for their persuasive power, but they have no precedential authority. In pretty much every state, the legislatures have specified the circumstances under which deadly force may be used and the courts in those states have created a body of caselaw applying those statutes to specific instances.
I did not intend to use that as anything other than a statement of one moral theory. Not long after that incident German law was changed to give protection to children. The case, going by memory of the case now because it was the moral theory that interested me more, involved two children who, in a time of need, where stealing food from an orchard? (or some type of farm). The owner, upon discovering the theft, used deadly force against the thieves. His defense, successful at the time, leaned on the premise that one need not yield any special treatment to those acting criminally against you or your property.

I would not expect the argument to work in today's courts in any of the western world. German law, even back then, was changed shortly after to give protections to children - even those who were "in the wrong"
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Old Yesterday, 11:48 AM   #62
JoeSixpack
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Originally Posted by thallub View Post
Decades ago my wife and i survived two home invasions. The first home invasion was by two career criminals who followed my wife home from work. They wanted her body.

Scumbags kicked in the front door, whereupon my wife shot the first one between the eyes with a .357 magnum. A piece of his skull the size of a half dollar was lying in the entrance way. i grabbed a loaded 16 gauge shotgun and shot the second guy who was trying to get his gun into play. He died in prison many years later.
Whoa that wife of yours is a keeper, Tell her I said good job.
How did you know what they wanted im curious?; Was they screaming their intent?
It didn't sound like you gave them much time to explain their motives.. nor should you have.

What happen in the 2nd incident Im kinda curious if you don't mind sharing.
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Old Yesterday, 12:31 PM   #63
thallub
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How did you know what they wanted im curious?;
My wife had been stalked for weeks. One of the perps worked near my wife's place of employment. We lived way out in the sticks. Wife was followed to our driveway several times: A state trooper on her bowling team told her to carry a gun. That same state trooper was the first responder.

Quote:
What happen in the 2nd incident Im kinda curious if you don't mind sharing.
We don't talk about that one. In spite of a no bill by a grand jury decades ago, the family of the perp is still trying to get me prosecuted.
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Old Yesterday, 12:42 PM   #64
ATN082268
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Originally Posted by thallub
We don't talk about that one. In spite of a no bill by a grand jury decades ago, the family of the perp is still trying to get me prosecuted.
After decades have passed since the incident, what criminal and/or civil laws would still apply?
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Old Yesterday, 02:19 PM   #65
thallub
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After decades have passed since the incident, what criminal and/or civil laws would still apply?
None that i'm aware of. However, the political dynamics of that state have changed drastically since then.
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Old Yesterday, 02:41 PM   #66
Lohman446
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A google search, done by a legal novice, indicates OK has no statue of limitations on murder charges. I would assume most self defense defenses are used in regards to murder charges
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Old Yesterday, 04:20 PM   #67
thallub
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A google search, done by a legal novice, indicates OK has no statue of limitations on murder charges.
It didn't happen in OK.
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