The optimum submachine gun... - Page 2

Handy · November 8, 2005, 11:20 PM

The Stoner isn't a submachinegun.

model 25 · November 9, 2005, 12:57 AM

Subguns are a personal taste. Rates of fire and accuracy along with weight of the gun will tell you what you like best for what you intend the subgun for.

At the bottom of the rates of fire is the Greasegun at 450 rounds per min. Shooting it you can count the rounds

At the top is the M11s and Mini uzis at around 1100rpm

I find that you should pick a rate of fire that matches your thinking speed and shooting skill then pick a gun that has the egronomics that you feel most comfortable with that has that rate of fire.

I have one but I wouldn't take it into a full blown battle as it is limited in distance. I have great fun shooting full auto matches though.

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Hkmp5sd · November 9, 2005, 06:44 AM

Quote:

The Optimum Sub Machine Gun?

Mine!

GeorgeF · November 9, 2005, 10:00 AM

Go Suomi! Quick change barrel, milled steel construction, drum or stick magazines, very accurate and can use it as a very heavy club when you are tired of shooting.

THe Finns used it with great success against the Russkies.

WillBrayjr · November 9, 2005, 11:17 AM

The only reason why any firearm could go 10,000rds and beyond with out cleaning is because the parts are loosely fitted. Take the AK-47 for example, it's parts are loosely fitted and the darn rifle keeps going. I tried on purpose to get it to jam and I couldn't. I threw heavy grease, tooth paste, mud, sand, and dirt into the reciever and still wouldn't jam. Simple design with loose fitted parts makes for a reliable firearm.

too many choices!? · November 9, 2005, 12:03 PM

Everything's a trade-off

guntotin_fool · November 9, 2005, 12:13 PM

Depends on the intended usage, for defensive EDC in modern urban environment, a Mini Uzi with a can. small, light, folded up and hanging from a shoulder strap it will hide under a well cut sport coat. I have not tried a HK PDW set up, but would rank it similar.

urban assault, police use, liability concerns, (that is, civilian injuries in a lawyer filled environment) the MP5 family. the trigger group and sights make it perhaps the most accurate Subgun ever.

third world conflict/insurgency etc full size UZI or sten. nothingelse comeclose in terms of simplicity and cost effectiveness. UZI's cost to the Israeli Gov't was something like $37 per. When it was a frontline arm, the savings over other options allowed Isreal to defend itself and not go broke. During WWII, Stens Mk 2 were made for about $9-11 each. and later marks cost slightly more as the design was refined. although some would disagree, with later magazine improvements, stens became quite reliable.

stephen426 · November 9, 2005, 02:04 PM

The only gun I have shot, out of those listed, is the H&K MP5. It is incredibly accurate for a full auto weapon and very easy to control. There is little to no muzzle rise and the gas operated rolling block system helps keep recoil very managable. I know it is just a 9mm but when you are talking about full auto, soft recoil keeps you from spraying lead all over the place. One other thing is the ergonomics are great and the compact size makes it very manuverable. The reliability, for the short time I got to shoot it, was perfect. I love the sights as well as the overall appearance of the gun. All in all, the MP5 is an awesome piece of machinery!

James K · November 9, 2005, 02:08 PM

"Loose parts move more, movement effects [sic] accuracy... "

Well, maybe, if we are talking about a fraction of MOA. But in the assault rifle and SMG context, loose parts have no real effect on accuracy. What matters is the barrel. If it is loose, accuracy goes to heck, but some slop in the bolt that doesn't affect headspace, or other loose parts will be of no import; in a military weapon (or a defense weapon) reliability is much more important than accuracy.

Jim

Pezo · November 9, 2005, 07:23 PM

had you said MAC 11 I would have voted differently. I think the uzi. all versions of them, would be darn near close. At least on a reliability standard.

MeekAndMild · November 9, 2005, 08:08 PM

I thought about this a long time before replying, British Soldier. I think that for military use the Thompson SMG or the .45 caliber version Uzi would be better but for civil defense purposes the original 9mm version UZI is better.

Stiletto · November 9, 2005, 11:51 PM

I voted Bizon. I'd have to do something about that grip, though.

too many choices!? · November 18, 2005, 01:50 PM

Thanx grammar and word usage police

My point still stands...

I will leave your run-on sentence alone

DimitriS · November 18, 2005, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Well, maybe, if we are talking about a fraction of MOA. But in the assault rifle and SMG context, loose parts have no real effect on accuracy.

From what I hear about the groupings of a M-16A2 or M-16A4 without lose fitting parts they are hightly more accurate then a AK or SKS which have really lose fitting parts. So its not really a "fraction of a MOA".

A SMG in 45ACP would be the best choise. The grease gun is a good one.

Dimitri

Lord_Nikon · November 19, 2005, 09:20 PM

Eat me alive if you like...

I say H&K UMP .45

The British Soldier · November 20, 2005, 06:54 AM

Great thoughts and comments.

We Brits had a panchant for side fed submachine guns for the reasons indicated [you can get lower than a snake's balls when you shoot it]; we now no longer have an SMG in general use.

Someone mentioned the Vz61 Skorpion - an interesting choice and I half agree with the reasoning; I find it one of the few weapons that showers you with brass! All those empties go up into the sky really impressively...and then come right back down on your head!

I think I didn't add the Beretta M12 because they are crap; I kind of added a list of weapons that I rate and that wasn't one of them. I think it uses very old engineering to achieve what it does.

model 25 · November 26, 2005, 10:50 AM

I believe if I had to pick a subgun to fight with and could have any I would use a PPSH or a Yugo in 30 russian. 72 rnd drums and they run very well along with a rate of fire that would cover an area very effectively.

I have seen these guns win alot of matches and while I believe the newer models like the HK are very accurate and super reliable I just think with the 30 russian cal and drum the Yugo is better. Close range I want all the bullets I can.

Yes they make beta mags for H&K but you have to squirt stuff in them to make them run. Also the 72 rnd drums on the yugo are battle proven.

25

A friend has an L2A3 and for some reason I really like that gun. The rate of fire is too slow but damn it is accurate and handles very well.

I had to laugh really hard as he was using his L2A3 in a match and wasn't paying attention when shooting weak handed and got his thumb in the ejection port, seems to be easy to do with this gun.

A-Mac.50 · November 26, 2005, 05:20 PM

Thats an easy choice which is the best, While the IMI uzis are classics and have been proven around the world for there reliability and ruggedness they do not take the trophy. Neither do the rest of these Subs while they all are decent guns anything HK is the best of the best, the MP5 is the most accurate, rugged and has a good fire rate of 800rpm but is not as good as the others but still good. The MP5s price tag is a problem though, but the MP5 wins in my book and if its good enough for SAS, SEALs, and Delta force that means something.

hoosierdaddy · November 26, 2005, 06:08 PM

I just googled "most popular machinegun" and found this...

Quote:

The most popular submachine gun in the world is currently the Heckler und Koch MP5. However, it is designated as a "machine pistol" by its manufacturer (MP5 stands for Machine Pistol 5), a designation some reserve to firearms such as the MAC-10, which are the size and shape of pistols, unlike the MP5.

Looks like the world agrees with the majority of those replying to the poll.

Dave Haven · November 26, 2005, 09:01 PM

The Germans have referred to submachine guns as "Maschinen Pistolen" forever.
Maybe because submachine guns have traditionally fired a pistol cartridge.
They even interchanged MP and StG (SturmGewehr) on the 44... The Father of Mikhail Kalashnikov's 1947 "invention".

MeekAndMild · November 28, 2005, 09:29 PM

British Soldier,

I'm surpised you didn't mention the M-3 and M-3A1 on your list. Lot of them saw service during WW-II and from what I read this was one of the few guns which could be adapted for shooting around corners. Now what could be more optimum than that?

I guess that you had to have one right handed grease gun guy and one left handed grease gun guy in a squad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_SMG

BlueTrain · November 29, 2005, 01:17 PM

Does anyone but me dislike the grip safety on Uzi's?

The British Soldier · November 29, 2005, 04:18 PM

A word on the M3 - why not keep them for pumping grease out of and leave shooting bullets to the decent weapons! You cannot place an M3 alongside a modern weapon and expect a comparison; they are 1st generation weapons where we are now using 5th or 6th generation smgs.

DimitriS · November 29, 2005, 04:27 PM

The M3 was a better SMG then the old Stens that the British had in WW2.

The M3 if you upgraded it's design sightly over the crude build of the originals in WW2 would probrobly be the best SMG avalible today.

I dont know about any of you but I know people who used both the Grease Gun and the Sten and others in or around World War 2 and they all agreed the M3 was the better one

Dimitri

model 25 · November 29, 2005, 06:15 PM

Does anyone but me dislike the grip safety on Uzi's?

Yes I do but it works for what it was intened to do and that is to make the weapon safe and ready both. I took a Houge rubber sleave grip and slid it over the safety because my grip wouldn't reliably squeeze the safety. The houge doesn't press the safety in but holds it right to the edge of travel so I only need a little pressure for the safety to be off.

I had the full auto rangemasters look over this arrangement and they declared it safe in their testing.

25

View Poll Results: The Optimum Sub Machine Gun?
Israeli Uzi	19	14.84%
HK MP5	81	63.28%
Steyr TMP	4	3.13%
Ingram MAC-10	5	3.91%
Calico	6	4.69%
Colt SMG	8	6.25%
Bizon	5	3.91%
Voters: 128. You may not vote on this poll

November 9, 2005, 12:03 PM	#31
too many choices!? Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2004 Posts: 371	Loose parts move more, movement effects accuracy... Everything's a trade-off

November 9, 2005, 02:04 PM	#33
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	The only gun I have shot, out of those listed, is the H&K MP5. It is incredibly accurate for a full auto weapon and very easy to control. There is little to no muzzle rise and the gas operated rolling block system helps keep recoil very managable. I know it is just a 9mm but when you are talking about full auto, soft recoil keeps you from spraying lead all over the place. One other thing is the ergonomics are great and the compact size makes it very manuverable. The reliability, for the short time I got to shoot it, was perfect. I love the sights as well as the overall appearance of the gun. All in all, the MP5 is an awesome piece of machinery! __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

November 9, 2005, 08:08 PM	#36
MeekAndMild Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2001 Posts: 4,988	I thought about this a long time before replying, British Soldier. I think that for military use the Thompson SMG or the .45 caliber version Uzi would be better but for civil defense purposes the original 9mm version UZI is better. __________________ In a few years when the dust finally clears and people start counting their change there is a pretty good chance that President Obama may become known as The Great Absquatulator. You heard it first here on TFL.

November 18, 2005, 01:50 PM	#38
too many choices!? Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2004 Posts: 371	Jim Keenan, Thanx grammar and word usage police My point still stands... I will leave your run-on sentence alone

November 8, 2005, 11:20 PM	#26
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	The Stoner isn't a submachinegun.

November 9, 2005, 12:57 AM	#27
model 25 Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: out west Posts: 892	Subguns are a personal taste. Rates of fire and accuracy along with weight of the gun will tell you what you like best for what you intend the subgun for. At the bottom of the rates of fire is the Greasegun at 450 rounds per min. Shooting it you can count the rounds At the top is the M11s and Mini uzis at around 1100rpm I find that you should pick a rate of fire that matches your thinking speed and shooting skill then pick a gun that has the egronomics that you feel most comfortable with that has that rate of fire. I have one but I wouldn't take it into a full blown battle as it is limited in distance. I have great fun shooting full auto matches though. 25

November 9, 2005, 10:00 AM	#29
GeorgeF Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2004 Posts: 572	Go Suomi! Quick change barrel, milled steel construction, drum or stick magazines, very accurate and can use it as a very heavy club when you are tired of shooting. THe Finns used it with great success against the Russkies.

November 9, 2005, 11:17 AM	#30
WillBrayjr Junior member Join Date: September 26, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 1,881	The only reason why any firearm could go 10,000rds and beyond with out cleaning is because the parts are loosely fitted. Take the AK-47 for example, it's parts are loosely fitted and the darn rifle keeps going. I tried on purpose to get it to jam and I couldn't. I threw heavy grease, tooth paste, mud, sand, and dirt into the reciever and still wouldn't jam. Simple design with loose fitted parts makes for a reliable firearm.

November 9, 2005, 12:13 PM	#32
guntotin_fool Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2004 Posts: 1,446	Depends on the intended usage, for defensive EDC in modern urban environment, a Mini Uzi with a can. small, light, folded up and hanging from a shoulder strap it will hide under a well cut sport coat. I have not tried a HK PDW set up, but would rank it similar. urban assault, police use, liability concerns, (that is, civilian injuries in a lawyer filled environment) the MP5 family. the trigger group and sights make it perhaps the most accurate Subgun ever. third world conflict/insurgency etc full size UZI or sten. nothingelse comeclose in terms of simplicity and cost effectiveness. UZI's cost to the Israeli Gov't was something like $37 per. When it was a frontline arm, the savings over other options allowed Isreal to defend itself and not go broke. During WWII, Stens Mk 2 were made for about $9-11 each. and later marks cost slightly more as the design was refined. although some would disagree, with later magazine improvements, stens became quite reliable.

November 9, 2005, 02:08 PM	#34
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	"Loose parts move more, movement effects [sic] accuracy... " Well, maybe, if we are talking about a fraction of MOA. But in the assault rifle and SMG context, loose parts have no real effect on accuracy. What matters is the barrel. If it is loose, accuracy goes to heck, but some slop in the bolt that doesn't affect headspace, or other loose parts will be of no import; in a military weapon (or a defense weapon) reliability is much more important than accuracy. Jim

November 9, 2005, 07:23 PM	#35
Pezo Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2005 Location: Vernors and orange barrels. Posts: 661	had you said MAC 11 I would have voted differently. I think the uzi. all versions of them, would be darn near close. At least on a reliability standard.

November 9, 2005, 11:51 PM	#37
Stiletto Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2005 Posts: 388	I voted Bizon. I'd have to do something about that grip, though.

November 19, 2005, 09:20 PM	#40
Lord_Nikon Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 401	Eat me alive if you like... I say H&K UMP .45 __________________ Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how it remains so popular?

November 20, 2005, 06:54 AM	#41
The British Soldier Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2005 Location: England...that green and pleasasnt land. Posts: 295	Great thoughts and comments. We Brits had a panchant for side fed submachine guns for the reasons indicated [you can get lower than a snake's balls when you shoot it]; we now no longer have an SMG in general use. Someone mentioned the Vz61 Skorpion - an interesting choice and I half agree with the reasoning; I find it one of the few weapons that showers you with brass! All those empties go up into the sky really impressively...and then come right back down on your head! I think I didn't add the Beretta M12 because they are crap; I kind of added a list of weapons that I rate and that wasn't one of them. I think it uses very old engineering to achieve what it does. __________________ Mike When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains And the women come out to cut up what remains Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains An' go to your Gawd like a soldier. Rudyard Kipling.

November 26, 2005, 10:50 AM	#42
model 25 Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: out west Posts: 892	I believe if I had to pick a subgun to fight with and could have any I would use a PPSH or a Yugo in 30 russian. 72 rnd drums and they run very well along with a rate of fire that would cover an area very effectively. I have seen these guns win alot of matches and while I believe the newer models like the HK are very accurate and super reliable I just think with the 30 russian cal and drum the Yugo is better. Close range I want all the bullets I can. Yes they make beta mags for H&K but you have to squirt stuff in them to make them run. Also the 72 rnd drums on the yugo are battle proven. 25 A friend has an L2A3 and for some reason I really like that gun. The rate of fire is too slow but damn it is accurate and handles very well. I had to laugh really hard as he was using his L2A3 in a match and wasn't paying attention when shooting weak handed and got his thumb in the ejection port, seems to be easy to do with this gun. Last edited by model 25; November 26, 2005 at 11:26 AM.

November 26, 2005, 05:20 PM	#43
A-Mac.50 Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 35	HK all the way Thats an easy choice which is the best, While the IMI uzis are classics and have been proven around the world for there reliability and ruggedness they do not take the trophy. Neither do the rest of these Subs while they all are decent guns anything HK is the best of the best, the MP5 is the most accurate, rugged and has a good fire rate of 800rpm but is not as good as the others but still good. The MP5s price tag is a problem though, but the MP5 wins in my book and if its good enough for SAS, SEALs, and Delta force that means something.

November 26, 2005, 09:01 PM	#45
Dave Haven Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2000 Location: near Flagstaff, AZ Posts: 790	The Germans have referred to submachine guns as "Maschinen Pistolen" forever. Maybe because submachine guns have traditionally fired a pistol cartridge. They even interchanged MP and StG (SturmGewehr) on the 44... The Father of Mikhail Kalashnikov's 1947 "invention". __________________ NRA Endowment Member FCSA Life Member Subs are cool, but belt-feds RULE!

November 28, 2005, 09:29 PM	#46
MeekAndMild Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2001 Posts: 4,988	British Soldier, I'm surpised you didn't mention the M-3 and M-3A1 on your list. Lot of them saw service during WW-II and from what I read this was one of the few guns which could be adapted for shooting around corners. Now what could be more optimum than that? I guess that you had to have one right handed grease gun guy and one left handed grease gun guy in a squad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_SMG __________________ In a few years when the dust finally clears and people start counting their change there is a pretty good chance that President Obama may become known as The Great Absquatulator. You heard it first here on TFL.

November 29, 2005, 01:17 PM	#47
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	Does anyone but me dislike the grip safety on Uzi's? __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

November 29, 2005, 04:18 PM	#48
The British Soldier Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2005 Location: England...that green and pleasasnt land. Posts: 295	A word on the M3 - why not keep them for pumping grease out of and leave shooting bullets to the decent weapons! You cannot place an M3 alongside a modern weapon and expect a comparison; they are 1st generation weapons where we are now using 5th or 6th generation smgs. __________________ Mike When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains And the women come out to cut up what remains Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains An' go to your Gawd like a soldier. Rudyard Kipling.

November 29, 2005, 04:27 PM	#49
DimitriS Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2005 Location: Anywhere in Ontario, Canada Posts: 626	The M3 was a better SMG then the old Stens that the British had in WW2. The M3 if you upgraded it's design sightly over the crude build of the originals in WW2 would probrobly be the best SMG avalible today. I dont know about any of you but I know people who used both the Grease Gun and the Sten and others in or around World War 2 and they all agreed the M3 was the better one Dimitri __________________ Push Feed Actions > Claw type Actions. Want to know why ?? Read http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=13813 Safety first (\__/) (='.'=)This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into (")_(")your signature to help him gain world domination. Firing Line ID 30083

November 29, 2005, 06:15 PM	#50
model 25 Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: out west Posts: 892	Does anyone but me dislike the grip safety on Uzi's? Yes I do but it works for what it was intened to do and that is to make the weapon safe and ready both. I took a Houge rubber sleave grip and slid it over the safety because my grip wouldn't reliably squeeze the safety. The houge doesn't press the safety in but holds it right to the edge of travel so I only need a little pressure for the safety to be off. I had the full auto rangemasters look over this arrangement and they declared it safe in their testing. 25