Loading lead bullets in 30-30 ????

[dahermit]

Having used cast lead bullets in both the .30-30 and the .32 Winchester Special (M94's) and taking at least one deer with the .32, the appear to be naturals for cast lead bullets and in the "old days" (sixties or so), gun writers would often opine that there was little to be gained by using jacketed bullets in those two.

[Metal god]

So I got my Lee universal expanding die , um no wait correction I got an empty black Lee die case haha . As soon as I picked up the delivered package off my step , it was so light I knew there was not a die in there .

[mehavey]

So the die was stolen ?

[44 AMP]

a) die was stolen unlikely, but not impossible
b) shipping dept screwed up and shipped an empty die box more likely than stolen,
c) mistake in ordering, either you placing the order or the clerk filling the order, either way, their paperwork will say "ordered die box". very possible.

What were you CHARGED for???
If they only charged you for the die box, the order was screwed up.
if you paid for die (and the box it comes in) and didn't get the die, you got ripped off.

What does the paperwork say they shipped???

[Metal god]

No it was supposed to be the die . The die holder had the universal expander die paperwork clamped inside . Amazon has made a few big shiiping mistakes lately . A delivery was confirmed last week and I did get a package addressed to me but it was not what I ordered , not even remotely close to what I ordered . Item delivered had a worth much greater then the item that was supposed to be delivered. For a second I thought about just keeping it but returned it in the end .

[Rifletom]

Metal god, you could try 9.0gr Unique with that bullet. Straight out of the Lyman #4 cast bullet loading manual. Works very well in my Mod 94 Win/20" barrel. Std LRP.

[Metal god]

Yeah , I'll likely try a couple pistol powders . I finally have all the dies I need and likely will reload this cartridge on my Lee CTP . I already have all my 30-30 brass FL sized and trimmed so my thinking is setting it up like this on the 4 hole tool head .
1) powder drop
2) M-die
3) seat bullet
4) crimp with FCD ( collet style )

I figure powder drop first so the M-die in the second station can clean up any neck issues the powder through die causes . I've loaded some 223 on the CTP and the rifle powder through die can ding up the neck a little sometimes . IDK I'll have to test all this out , 99% of the time I load rifle cartridge's on a single stage so loading rifle cartridge's on the CTP although not new to me , it's not something I have a lot of experience with .

[Aguila Blanca]

I don't think the Lee Factory Crimp Die is a collet-style crimper. According to the Lee web site, none of the FCDs are collet-style.

[Metal god]

I don't think Lee specifies what any of there FCD's are . I do know there FCD's are what they are supposed to be for the cartridge . Meaning if the cartridge you are loading requires a roll crimp . The Lee FCD in that cartridge is a roll crimp die same with taper etc.

This is a pic of the three different ( collet , taper , roll ) Lee FCD inserts or die it self , sorry I forget for which cartridge each is for but these are all from Lee FCD's . I took and posted this pic several years ago in a thread talking about this same general subject


From left to right 223 , 308 , 30-30 FCD's

[Unclenick]

The devil is in the nomenclature details:

The Lee Factory Crimp Die IS a collet crimper. It is available only for rifle cartridges.

The Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die is NOT a collet crimper. It is available for pistol cartridges and revolver cartridges.

The Lee Collet Style Crimp Die is another collet crimp die with switchback collet finger grooves to enable its short collet to work with magnum revolver size cartridges.

[Metal god]

Interesting distinction that the difference is the carbide ring which to me seems to be a bad way of describing the difference . To me adding the carbide into the title does not in any way describe the actual difference in the crimps ( lame ) So I should have said the carbide FCD's are the proper crimp for the cartridge and can be either taper or roll crimps depending on the intended cartridge ?

[mehavey]

Strongly recommend you not use any crimp that even hints at swaging the neck.
Rather I suggest (strongly of course) that instead you utilize standard roll crimp w/ the 30WCF

[44 AMP]

I crimp my .30-30 ammo (all loads) with the Lyman seater die from the Lyman .30-30 die set that I have been using since 1972. Works just fine for me.

I don't see why one needs to make it difficult...

[Metal god]

I don't see why one needs to make it difficult...

Not sure what you mean by difficult ? I've only been reloading about 10 years or so and never have I used my seating die to crimp any bullet . Maybe what I need to do is make it easier haha , seeing how I've always did it the more difficult way lol . If you ask me ? ... the "more difficult" aspect to this cartridge and bullet is the addition of the M-die . I've never needed one before but I've been brow beaten so darn much on this "M-DIE" being our lord and savior , I figured might as well get one and try it out before I'm banished to eternal damnation . Oh man I'm really cracking my self up now

If referring to me sizing all the cases first ? That's just something I do with all my rifle cartridges . I literally have thousands of cases FL sized in multiple calibers ( many already primed as well ) just sitting around ready to load . This means I had already prepped out several hundred 30-30 cases going on a couple years ago now well before I got these new lead bullets . So really I'm just filling all 4 stations in the tool head since I don't need the sizing die in there . Thinking If I have to pull the handle to advance the head anyways , It might as well be doing something while I do so .

Strongly recommend you not use any crimp that even hints at swaging the neck.

No worries , The rifle FCD - DO NOT have the swaging ring like the ones do for pistol calibers . They are a straight forward collet style crimp die with NO swaging whats so ever FWIW I do know why you say that . It's because If the neck were to be swaged with a lead bullet seated the brass can spring back while leaving the lead swaged down resulting in less bullet hold ???

[mehavey]

...were to be swaged with a lead bullet seated the brass can spring back
while leaving the lead swaged down resulting in less bullet hold ???

Brass won't spring back, so much as the bullet will be swaged down past your intended diameter (groove + 0.001/2)

If whatever you use avoids that neck swage, go ahead w/ what you have best calibrated.

.

[Mike / Tx]

Ok so just gonna throw this into the mix. Several years back I was in a similar position with these same bullets only loading for a Ruger Compsct in .308. After a lot of reading I set out to try two powders, H4895, and Red Dot.

I chose the H4895 due to being able to drop the charges down to reduced loads, and the Red Dot due to CE Harris The Load. Both seemed to get me where I wanted to go, but after starting with the H4895 I never got around to the Red Dot.

Following the Reduced Load document from Hodgdon, I started out at the lowest end and after bumping up a charge or two was getting 1" groups at 50yds. Moving out to 100 they easily stayed under 2" which I thought was great. These initially were simply to give my 3 grandsons an easy shooting practice load. That said, I would have had no issues using them for deer or hogs up close like 50yds less.

Anyway either of those are a decent option IF you can get hands on the powders.

Hope that helps.

[44 AMP]

I've only been reloading about 10 years or so and never have I used my seating die to crimp any bullet .

That's your choice, of course. I've been loading since the early 70s, I've been set up to load over 30 different rifle and pistol rounds ranging from .22 Hornet to .458 Win Mag.

With the exception of a taper crimp die for .45acp, one for 9mm Luger and one for .44AMP, everything I crimp gets crimped with the seater die. Often in one step, seat and crimp, but not always.

Our situations are not alike in another way, after some years, I gave up on using progressive presses, and went back to the single stage press.

I don't load any cast bullets in .30 cal currently, though I have in the past and still have some in my components. I don't even have an "M" die set up for .30cal. I do for several other calibers, just not ,30 cause I haven't needed to use one in .30 for ages. And, were i to return to loading lead bullets in .30 caliber, I probably wouldn't go out and buy a .30 expander for my M die, right away. What I would try, first would be to see if I could get the SMALL amount of mouth flare needed to prevent shaving lead off the bullet when seating, with my .32ACP expander. (I have not tried this, as I have no need so far but specs say it should work, .32acp bullets are not ,32 caliber they are .311" nominal) I would try this because I HAVE the .32acp die already. If I didn't, I'd order the .30 for the M die first.

For what you are doing, why are you worried about crimp, anyway? You said you're shooting them from a bolt gun (box magazine, yes??) and if so you don't NEED to crimp them. You can, done right it doesn't hurt, (done wrong, it does!!!) but you don't NEED a crimp in a bolt action box magazine .30-30.

Besides my Marlin 336 I have a Contender in .30-30 and for the rifle, I ALWAYS crimp, but for the single shot pistol, I don't bother. AND, sometimes I load bullets into the single shot that aren't made to be crimped (or used in tubular magazines).

To me, adding a die to expand the case mouth for lead slugs is enough extra work, why add even more with a die just for crimping when the regular seater die handles that job just fine??

[mehavey]

44... for cast bullets, I find a secure roll crimp makes for (more) consistent ignition when bullet seated short of lands.
(obviously in application to things thhat don't headspace on the mouth)

[44 AMP]

44... for cast bullets, I find a secure roll crimp makes for (more) consistent ignition when bullet seated short of lands.
(obviously in application to things thhat don't headspace on the mouth)

You might possibly be right, I don't know. Every bullet I've ever seated in anything has been short of the lands. And, intentionally so!

And, I don't know how you are measuring or defining "more consistent ignition", either.

I know that a proper roll crimp absolutely helps when loading certain powders, with both cast and Jacketed bullets.

And I know that I have never noticed inconsistent ignition from my handloads using cast bullets in cases that headspace on the case mouth. (mostly 9mm Luger and .45acp), including when I shoot .45acp brass and lead bullets and it doesn't headspace on the case mouth.

[mehavey]

I ran a 45-70 session (Cast 405/5744) at the range a couple of years ago where I couldn't
figure out why I was 100+ fps off known velocity, and plus/minus 35-40 fps.

Read my notes and remembered I'd run off w/o the usual crimp.

Took the remaining cartridges back through the press an -- voila -- back to normal.
Since then I've made it regular practice to use at least a half-turn roll crimp in anything cast.
postscript: I regularly take my heavy Postells to engage the lands in my single-shots,
slip-fit into the case against the BP. No problemmo.

The mouth-headspacer rifles are different as you point out. There my BeoWoof, Legend,
etc do just fine w/o anything other than neck retention/taper.

Go figure.

[Unclenick]

If you like the roll crimp in 45-70, you will probably love what the Redding Profile Crimp die dies for it. It roll-crimps like a standard seating die's crimp shoulder does, but leads up to the roll crimp shoulder with a partial taper crimp. What that does is trap the sides of the case while the roll crimp is formed. This lets you apply a much harder roll crimp because it prevents the sharp bend at the case mouth from causing the sides of the case below the crimp from being pulled off the sides of the bullet, as shown in the image on the far right, below.



As to the collet crimp, the ridge on the lip of the crimping collet in the Lee die is not very wide and it is located right up at the case mouth (if you keep within normal trim-to lengths). For this reason, if you simply set your seating depth so your bullet's crimp groove is level with the case mouth, the Factory Crimp Die's crimp won't deform the bullet, as its collet finger lip is just pushing the brass into the crimp groove space and not deforming the bullet.

As to the M-die, the main advantage it presents as compared to a conventional flare is that it forms a step that lets the bullet sit straight upright when you place it in the case mouth. This results in it entering the seating die straight which prevents the seating ram in the die from pushing down on a bullet cocked at an angle in the case mouth. This significantly reduces cartridge runout. How much that runout matters to your group size will vary with bullet bearing surface length and muzzle rpm, but it never hurt anything to have concentric rounds, so I see it as another variable eliminator.

[Metal god]

Lee seems to believe there collet crimp dies don’t require a crimp grove . In fact they seem to say not having a crimp grove with not effect the round at all .

Originally Posted by Lee

No other crimping system can apply as secure a crimp as the Lee collet style Factory Crimp. No crimping groove required in jacketed or cast bullets, the die is so powerful it will form a crimp groove if one is not present.

Ok they don't say it will not effect the round but do hint that it forms a crimp groove for you . Does that mean a concentric groove IDK but based on how they work , my guess is that it will be as concentric as your case mouth/neck wall thickness .

[44 AMP]

the die is so powerful it will form a crimp groove if one is not present.

This is advertizing bullspit. (or, as Cmmdr Clement would say "what we in the Royal Navy call, a lie!")

I don't have a LEE FCD, don't pretend to know how it works but I don't need to know that to know that the statement about "die power" is false.

Dies HAVE NO POWER.

Its the press (and you) that do the work and provide ALL the power involved. Literally, the die does nothing but just sit there.

And, I can tell you from personal experience that the regular roll crimp shoulder in ordinary seating dies can create a crimp in bullets where there is no groove or cannelure, IF the bullet is soft enough. If it isn't you still get a bit of crimp, but what you also get is a buckled case neck or collapsed case shoulder.
If you doubt me, feel free to try it. Worst case is you waste a case or two. But sometimes such a screwup is recoverable.

Take a .30-30 and seat a bullet so there is no groove for the case mouth to crimp into. Back off the seating stem and then screw down the die so it gives a good hard crimp, and crimp the case. See what results you get. With a "soft" lead bullet it might form a good crimp and nothing else, or it might not. With a jacketed bullet the most likely result is you will get some crimp into the jacket and the case neck will buckle, bulging out, (sometimes a couple or even 3 spots, enough to prevent chambering the round. I've done it.

You can recover the bullet using an inertia puller and then you can resize the case and that usually returns it to a usable condition. Usually.

Point here is that Lee is feeding you wolf tickets about the "power" of its die, and that other dies can do the same thing IF the right conditions exist.

Other point is that if you use a die crimp shoulder (or, I would assume a collet do the same) to create a crimp groove, you are compressing BOTH the bullet AND the case. Both of which are different materials with different amounts of elasticity and "spring back", which can result in a situation where your crimp is crap, because you squashed the bullet which doesn't spring back as much as the brass case does.

Not a big deal in some situations (like close range, low power revolver rounds) but potentially a much different thing in a different situation.

Use bullets that have a groove and crimp in the groove, IF for some strange reason you can't do that, PROCEED WiTH CAUTION if you do try and crimp. With just the right combination of bullet and crimp things can work out. But the rest of the time...not so much..

[mehavey]

regular roll crimp shoulder in ordinary seating dies can create a crimp in bullets where there
is no groove or cannelure, IF the bullet is soft enough. If it isn't you still get a bit of crimp, but
what you also get is a buckled case neck

That only happens if your are crimping and seating in the same step outside the crimp groove.
If you seat-then-crimp separately (which you have to do w/ a Lee crimp die anyway), the
roll-crimp die just drives the ledge into the bullet directly.
No buckling.

With a crimp groove.... I just
- Screw the seating die body down to just barely short of mouth contact
- Seat to bullet to correct OAL using the seating stem--upper third of crimp groove.
- Then release the seating stem several turns to pull it off the bullet completely...
- Turn the seater body past contact 1/2 - 3/4 turn...
- Roll crimp into groove solidly...
- Turn seating stem down to meet bullet, and lock everything up firmly

One-step seating/crimping after that

[Metal god]

Dies HAVE NO POWER.

Its the press (and you) that do the work and provide ALL the power involved. Literally, the die does nothing but just sit there.

I believe you have a misunderstanding of how the collet crimp die works .


The die does not just sit there like a FL or seating die does . Yes it sits and is locked/screwed into the the press . However the die has an internal sleeve with the "collet" at the top of it . The bottom of the sleeve contacts the shell holder and slides up into the die body which has an internal taper at the top or the collet sleeve it self has the taper . As the press ram pushes that sleeve higher into that body it forces the top section closed resulting the collet clamping down on the case mouth at a right angle .

As I write this it occurs to me the collet crimp die likely works exactly like the collet neck sizing die with out the mandrel . Keeping that in mind yes the collet crimp die creates a significant amount of force in/onto the case mouth .

Internals of the Lee collet neck sizing die



Note how the collet neck sizing die sleeve looks a lot like the crimp die when inside the die body



223 FCD You can't take these apart like the collet neck die but my guess is the sleeves look the same .


Here are the bottoms of each die , NOTE they both have internal sleeves



This is the FCD in the press with the ram down and fully engaged respectively




Note how it actually pinches closed So yes I do believe you can say they create force . Just like you the operator of the press generates the power the press creates so to does it all work together to allow the FCD to create force .