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Old November 18, 2017, 03:48 PM   #26
JohnKSa
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If the magazine is out, how can you chamber another round.
In the post that you're responding to, 'step 2' is dropping the mag. If step 2 is forgotten then the magazine isn't out.

That is why removing the magazine should be step 1. Start by removing the mag to remove the ammunition in the magazine, THEN manipulate the slide to remove/detect ammunition in the chamber.
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Old November 18, 2017, 04:29 PM   #27
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Deleted original post. Always drop the mag 1st.
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Old November 18, 2017, 06:34 PM   #28
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n the post that you're responding to, 'step 2' is dropping the mag. If step 2 is forgotten then the magazine isn't out.

That is why removing the magazine should be step 1. Start by removing the mag to remove the ammunition in the magazine, THEN manipulate the slide to remove/detect ammunition in the chamber.
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LOL, so if you forget step two in your senario, then you could just as easily have a ND because step two would be to eject the round. This being the most common occurances of ND's. that of removing the magazine and forgetting to check the chamber. I rather rack the slide back to see if there is a round in the chamber first and then remove the mag.

2. People who rack the slide and see an empty mag might unwittinly assume that the gun is empty (unchambered). An empty mag might lead to this assumption and they would more likely to forget step 2 (rack the slide to check). ESPECIALLY NEWBIES.

3. If you lock back the slide first. You can easily see the chamber and magazine at the same time. If there is a chambered round, and you forgot, by racking the slide back first, it comes flying out as a reminder.

4. Probably that's how most of the glock ND's happen. By dropping the mag, and then pressing the trigger to disassemble. If they had locked back the slide first and the round came flying out, they would then remember to drop the mag.
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Old November 18, 2017, 08:40 PM   #29
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...that's how I was taught many years ago.
Where did you learn this procedure?

I was curious to see if maybe I was off base, so I just finished going through 20 some-odd owners manuals for firearms with detachable magazines.

Every single one of them recommended removing the magazine first and only checking the chamber after the magazine had been removed.
Quote:
I rather rack the slide back to see if there is a round in the chamber first and then remove the mag.
The issue is that with the magazine in the gun, one can check the chamber and then drop the slide and reload the chamber that was just verified to be empty. Checking the chamber while there's still a loaded mag in the gun creates a situation where the chamber check can be done properly and an empty chamber verified but then the chamber can be loaded inadvertently from the loaded magazine that's still in the gun.

If the mag is out, then no matter how the procedure is scewed up from there on out, at least the chamber won't actually be reloaded. One might not properly check the chamber (which would be a fail regardless of what order the process is performed) but at least once a proper chamber check is performed, there's no way to chamber another round once the mag is out of the gun.
Quote:
...If they had locked back the slide first and the round came flying out, they would then remember to drop the mag.
And if the chamber was empty and nothing came out then by that logic they might not remember to drop the loaded mag and when they dropped the slide they would chamber a round.
Quote:
People who rack the slide and see an empty mag might unwittinly assume that the gun is empty (unchambered). An empty mag might lead to this assumption and they would more likely to forget step 2 (rack the slide to check).
I don't understand how people who rack the slide are more likely to forget to rack the slide.
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...so if you forget step two in your senario, then you could just as easily have a ND because step two would be to eject the round. This being the most common occurances of ND's.
I'd be interested to see the data on that--what study are you quoting?

Anyway, the bottom line is this: In every applicable owner's manual I could find, the proper procedure is as follows:

1. If there is a safety and/or decocker control then put the gun on safe and/or decock it using the control.
2. Remove the magazine.
3. Operate the action and verify that the chamber is empty.

If you have (or know of) a manual that specifies a different procedure, I'd be interested to see it.
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Old November 18, 2017, 08:57 PM   #30
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where did I learn that?
from my uncle bob chow.

I shot bullseye for many years. And at the end of every string, it was....
SLIDES BACK, MAGAZINES OUT.
I never heard, "Magazines out, slides back.

I hand you a gun. Is it loaded?
I drop the magazine first. Hand it to you with the slide closed. Is it loaded?
I lock back the slide and hand it to you. Is it loaded. Yes or no, you can see right away.
One method takes one action. the other two actions. what you do afterwards is up to the shooters training.

I know of a friend that thought he should release the striker to store his glock. so one day at the sheriff's ccw qualifications he was caught doing this and told by the RO to stop doing that. after one shooting string he did that and had a ND. why? because he dropped the mag, thought he was safe and pulled the trigger again to relieve the trigger.
Disqualified immediately.

Also, I find it more natural, maybe because that's how I've done it for so many years. I can lock back the slide, and drop the mag into my other hand and check the chamber. If I do the opposite, drop the mag first, what the heck do I do with the mag when I'm trying to rack the slide back. It's much more awkward.
Same action for type 3 malfunction. Lock the slide back, drop the mag.
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Old November 18, 2017, 09:25 PM   #31
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where did I learn that?
from my uncle bob chow.
Well, based on my research, it seems that gun manufacturers either didn't consult your Uncle Bob for input or they disagreed with him.
Quote:
I shot bullseye for many years. And at the end of every string, it was....
SLIDES BACK, MAGAZINES OUT.
I don't know who came up with those commands but I do know that they are not official commands to be used for NRA bullseye pistol matches.

Here's the book, you can check for yourself.

http://rulebooks.nra.org/documents/p...istol-book.pdf
Quote:
why? because...
Because he didn't follow the proper procedure for unloading a firearm before pulling the trigger.
Quote:
Is it loaded?
...Is it loaded?
...Is it loaded.
It is certainly true that there are various methods one could employ to make loaded status of a particular firearm more obvious or less obvious. However, none of them changes the proper procedure for unloading it.

The reason that the magazine is dropped before the chamber is checked is to eliminate the chance of reloading the chamber after it has been verified empty.
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Old November 18, 2017, 09:27 PM   #32
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1. If there is a safety and/or decocker control then put the gun on safe and/or decock it using the control.
2. Remove the magazine.
3. Operate the action and verify that the chamber is empty.
While this isn't bad advice, step #1 doesn't (can't) be applied to everything. Or rather, it can, I suppose, but serves no purpose that I can see. (other than the standard practice of applying the safety to any gun you aren't certain is unloaded)

Of course, I am thinking "outside the GLock" here. Many designs can only have the safety applied when the gun is cocked. Many lock the action shut when the safety is on.

SO, for the purpose of unloading, what's the point of putting the safety on, to drop the mag, then taking it off, to open the action??

For me, I don't drop the mag first. I rack the action open, and expect the empty mag to lock it open. IF IT DOES NOT, THEN I know right away something isn't right, and its most likely a live round. I then drop the mag and operate the action, expecting to see the live round ejected.

If THAT does not happen, I lock the action open manually and take a careful look (and a feel) in the chamber, before moving on to figure out why things didn't work as expected.
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Old November 18, 2017, 09:37 PM   #33
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While this isn't bad advice, step #1 doesn't (can't) be applied to everything. Or rather, it can, I suppose, but serves no purpose that I can see. (other than the standard practice of applying the safety to any gun you aren't certain is unloaded)

Of course, I am thinking "outside the GLock" here. Many designs can only have the safety applied when the gun is cocked. Many lock the action shut when the safety is on.

SO, for the purpose of unloading, what's the point of putting the safety on, to drop the mag, then taking it off, to open the action??
That step was a quick & dirty summary of instructions from 20 some-odd manuals for 20 some-odd different guns with a wide variety of manuals of arms having only detachable magazines in common. The focus was on the order of steps 2 and 3, but I foolishly decided to include the first step since some variant of it was commonly stated.

Let me try to summarize that step slightly differently.

1. If applicable then put the gun on safe and/or decock it.
2. Remove the magazine.
3. Operate the action and verify that the chamber is empty.

Quote:
For me, I don't drop the mag first.
I'm willing to bet that the manual for the firearm in question says to drop the mag first.
Quote:
I rack the action open, and expect the empty mag to lock it open. IF IT DOES NOT...
If it does not then you just chambered a round as part of your unloading process. This is counterproductive at best, and dangerous at worst.
Quote:
I then drop the mag and operate the action, expecting to see the live round ejected.
You could just have done that as the first resort, following the manual, and thereby avoiding both repetition and the possibility of chambering a round as part of the unloading process.
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Old November 18, 2017, 10:00 PM   #34
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John, I don't know how many bullseys matches you have personally attended, but I shot competitive bullseye for over ten years and have been to hundresd of matches. Although every range officer has their own way, the commands have been burned into my memory.
I shot in the San Francisco bay area most of the time, and they all used "slides back, magazines out, cylinders open.

If you had an alibi, you had to show the malfunction, then rack the slide back and drop the magazine and make the line safe.

http://www.njpistol.com/Summary.pdf
Here is a page from the New Jersey Pistol association's guide book:
“Slides back, magazines out, guns on the bench, safety flags in chambers, make the line safe”

Quote:
Well, based on my research, it seems that gun manufacturers either didn't consult your Uncle Bob for input or they disagreed with him.
and I hope you know who Bob Chow is. Of course, he had his own way of doing things, but his background was from the bullseye world.
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Old November 18, 2017, 11:47 PM   #35
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Although every range officer has their own way, the commands have been burned into my memory.
I shot in the San Francisco bay area most of the time, and they all used "slides back, magazines out, cylinders open.
I'm not saying that's not what happened. I'm just saying those aren't standard NRA bullseye commands--I provided the official source so you can verify that what I'm saying is correct.

Anyway, even if it were standard practice for NRA bullseye, and even if Bob Chow were JMB reincarnated, it still wouldn't change what every applicable owner's manual I could find recommends in terms of the unloading procedure.

If you can find one that recommends a different procedure I'd be interested to see it.
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Old November 19, 2017, 12:01 AM   #36
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You asked me where I learned my methodology, and I told you. that's all.
Not saying that is the correct way or only way.
We are old enough to realize there are more than one way to skin a cat.

As long as one knows how to handle a weapon safely.

Quote:
If you can find one that recommends a different procedure I'd be interested to see it.
Seecamp. You can't rack the slide back with the magazine removed. The slide will only go back 1/2 inch, but just enough to check chamber.

In order to remove a cartridge that is loaded in the chamber, you have to either remove the loaded magazine, and load an empty one to rack the slide back to eject the loaded round. Or you can drop the mag just enough (1/4 inch) so the next round won't be picked up when you rack the slide to eject the chambered round, and then remove the magazine.
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Old November 19, 2017, 03:26 AM   #37
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Such an informative and respectful discourse on this topic. But, instead of being enlightened, I remain hesitant regarding the most appropriate procedure.

I am thinking about flipping a coin to decide.
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Old November 19, 2017, 06:46 AM   #38
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It seems to make more sense to me to drop the mag first, this way when you rack the slide it will lock open after ejecting the round. Unless your gun doesn't lock open after the last round, in which case it go either way. I keep a 10" piece of bright orange fiberglass dowel in my bag, I run this down the barrel after locking back the slide to make sure the barrel is clear. I also use this to check for a barrel obstruction on any suspected squib or short charge.
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Old November 19, 2017, 07:07 AM   #39
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Seecamp. You can't rack the slide back with the magazine removed.
Makes sense. It would be pretty ridiculous for the manual to recommend a procedure that can't be performed.

However, it is interesting to note that the Seecamp manual indicates that the magazine should be partially removed as the first step.

http://www.seecamp.com/SeecampManualNew.pdf
UNLOADING: (Figures 5 and 6)
1. Pivot the magazine catch to the rear.
2. The magazine will drop down a small distance when the magazine catch is pivoted to the rear.
Quote:
I am thinking about flipping a coin to decide.
Or you could read the owner's manual for the firearm in question. That's a good idea in the general case, not just to acquire this specific information.
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Old November 19, 2017, 08:36 AM   #40
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Quote:
It seems to make more sense to me to drop the mag first, this way when you rack the slide it will lock open after ejecting the round.
On my SAR K2P, it is a notch on the follower of the empty mag that locks the slide back. If the mag is removed, I must manual lock the slide back with the slide lock/release lever. I still agree with dropping the mag 1st.
The bright colored dowel is a good idea.
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Old November 19, 2017, 09:13 AM   #41
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If we all followed the instruction manuals to the T, many would not be carrying a loaded chamber. Folks, these are written by the company's lawyers.

But back to the original topic:
Quote:
Rack the slide back did not see a shell in barrell. mag was removed ,let loose of slide pulled trigger bang.is this common
So this proves my point. The OP did remove the mag first, yet assumed that the ejector would remove any chambered round. Removing the mag first did not help in this case. It was his neglect in physically checking the chamber and perhap visually that caused the ND. He was relying on the cycling action to do it.

He did not state that he dropped the mag and locked the slide back to check.
If he had locked back the slide first, and then dropped the mag, he would have more time to actually visually and physically check the chamber, and he would have had to perform two more actions of reinserting a magazine and dropping the slide for a ND to happen.

Also, why did he pull the trigger after removing the mag. Was he taking down his firearm, relieving the stress on the striker or hammer (as stated as a poor practice in my earlier posts) or getting ready to dry fire, or pressing the trigger to confirm an unloaded firearm?
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Old November 19, 2017, 12:18 PM   #42
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Or you could read the owner's manual for the firearm in question. That's a good idea in the general case, not just to acquire this specific information.
I agree, but it only works if you have the owner's manual. I've bought a lot of different handguns over the years, nearly all of them used. Some came with the manuals, most did not. Most guns are simple enough that most people figure them out without the manual, and once they have done that, getting a manual (especially in pre-internet days) dropped to a very low or zero priority.

Sure, we should get the manuals, but how many of us actually do???

Out of all the pistols I've had that didn't have manuals, there was only one that I bought a reproduction manual for, and that was a C96 Mauser. And, I didn't buy it because I needed the instructions in it, I already had operating and field stripping instructions in a couple of books. I bought to go with the gun, as I had the holster, and cleaning rods too, and was looking to recreate the accessory set the gun originally came with.

As far as dropping the mag and racking the slide goes, I think I may be using the term a little differently than others. When checking the gun, (with the mag out) I "rack" the slide by pulling it all the way back, and holding it there, while I look to see if the action is clear. I do not just pull the slide back, and let it go, assuming that if there is a round chambered, it will be ejected.

Then I lock the slide open using the lever/button, IF the design of the gun allows for it. Some do not.

You cannot lock the toggle of a Luger open, WITHOUT having an empty magazine in the gun.

I have a Mauser HSc that also will not lock open without an empty mag in the gun. Mine will also shut if you remove the magazine. (Any HSc owners out there? Is this the correct operation, or is my gun not working 100% correctly?? I don't know. It is fully functional, I just don't know if it's supposed to work like that, different from other guns I own. I suppose I might get a manual and see what it says, but I'm too lazy..)
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Old November 19, 2017, 04:22 PM   #43
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So this proves my point.
No it doesn't. It just goes to show that no matter what procedure is followed, there is potential for human error. There is no procedure that can prevent human error--but there are some procedures which can reduce the chances of certain types of errors from having a negative effect.

You believe that leaving the mag in the gun is safer during the chamber check even though it opens up the possibility of verifying that the chamber is empty and then accidentally reloading it after the check. It appears that every manufacturer of applicable firearms we can find so far disagrees with you.

But the fact that one person managed to botch a particular loading procedure on a single occasion isn't proof that it's a bad procedure any more than the fact that a person manages to make a bad procedure work proves that it's a good procedure.

If we are going to take this approach, then if anyone could find an example where a person botched your procedure you would have to admit it is a bad procedure.

And here's just such an example:

https://www.fieldandstream.com/answe...stake-forum-an
I did not drop the magazine before beginning my clearing procedure. This shouldn’t have been a problem, seeing as the next step is to pull back the charging handle and physically and visually inspect the chamber. I charged the gun but did not hold the bolt to the rear for very long to check. I canted the rifle so I could see it but did not actually process what I saw. I then released the charging handle and almost immediately pressed the trigger to drop the hammer, which I do before separating the gun.
In fact, in the list of ND stories in that link, there was actually another example:
I racked the slide before dropping the magazine, ejecting the round, but unknowingly chambering another. After dropping the magazine, I released the safety, then pulled the trigger to drop the hammer.
Quote:
I agree, but it only works if you have the owner's manual.
Owner's manuals are generally available free of charge from the manufacturer for guns of reasonably recent production guns or even for older guns if the manufacturer is still in business.

Here's a great resource for about 300 owner's manuals that may not still be available from the manufacturer for one reason or another.

http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/

Here is a manual for the Mauser HSC. It is, unfortunately, in German, but there are online translation tools that should help you make sense of it.
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-c...HSc-Manual.pdf

Here is the unloading procedure from the manual. Apologies for the translation, it's not my specialty.
If the shooting is finished and there are still cartridges in the barrel or
magazine; to make the gun is secure, take out the magazine and
forcefully retract the slide. The cartridge will be removed
pulled out and ejected.
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Old November 19, 2017, 04:34 PM   #44
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You believe that leaving the mag in the gun is safer during the chamber check even though it opens up the possibility of verifying that the chamber is empty and then accidentally reloading it after the check. It appears that every manufacturer of applicable firearms we can find so far disagrees with you.
No, I never stated that. I said lock the slide back and take the magazine out for a better check. I never said leave the magazine in.
I stated that with one motion, by racking the slide you can see instantly what is happening, but I also stated that the magazine should be removed.

You are misinterpreting my statements in an effort to try and prove your point.

Please try and keep the topic to the OP's original statement. He took the magazine out and assumed that the gun was safe by cycling the action and no round was ejected. That backs up my claim that removing the magazine first gives people a false sense of security.
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Old November 19, 2017, 05:30 PM   #45
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You are misinterpreting my statements in an effort to try and prove your point.
First of all, how is it MY point? Every owner's manual we have found so far recommends the procedure. It's not like I dreamed it up myself.

Second, if you've been involved in a discussion that was NOT about whether to remove the magazine FIRST or operate the slide FIRST during the unloading process, then maybe you posted this in the wrong thread.
Quote:
I never said leave the magazine in.
We all agree that the magazine must come out at some point--that has never been the issue. The question is which of two steps (Remove mag, Operate slide) should come first.

Unless you're trying to say that the magazine should be dropped simultaneous to operating the slide, then you are saying that the magazine should be left in while the slide is operated to eject the round/check the chamber.
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Old November 19, 2017, 09:25 PM   #46
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While I think we’re going a bit overboard here, I will agree with John that the OP being negligent doesn’t somehow prove that removing the magazine first sets people up for a ND or gives them a false sense of security. At some point the magazine has to be removed and the chamber checked. If someone forgets one of those steps the ground is laid for a ND.


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Old November 20, 2017, 10:33 AM   #47
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While pointing the gun in a safe direction with your finger off the trigger, Drop the Magazine first, then rack the slide. It is how I was taught and as an NRA certified basic pistol instructor it is what I am required to teach students in an official NRA basic pistol course.

As far as bullseye competition goes, they do say "slides back magazines out make the line safe." At the end of a string the slide on a 1911 .45 and most competition .22lr pistols will already be back in the locked position and the magazine will be empty.

Are Bullseye competitors the safest folks for gun handling? I would say it varies, familiarity breeds contempt, and there are many holes in the baffle in front of the 25 yard position at my NRA Bullseye participating club as many competitors like to put their finger on the trigger before the gun is brought down on target.

Teaching new shooters with a loaded magazine and chamber the proper procedure for safety is to drop the magazine first, this avoids any possibility that they might eject a round and then chamber another, leaving the gun loaded after they drop the magazine.

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Old November 20, 2017, 10:44 AM   #48
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Whether you lock the slide back first and then remove the magazine, or remove the magazine first and then lock back the slide, at that point, you are exactly the same.
It's a silly debate. I don't care how you do it, but it seem you care greatly how I do it.

But if we are to stay on topic according to the OP's thread, I believe he is asking about why his extrator failed to eject the round. That was initial question. So the discussion was not about whether to drop the magazine first or lock the slide back first. The main point to the OP's original question was that he relied on the extractor to clear the chamber instead of examining it visually and PHYSICALLY.
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Old November 20, 2017, 05:18 PM   #49
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Nooo, I won't post that.
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