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Old November 9, 2017, 11:05 AM   #1
OhioGuy
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Sight picture questions

I recently purchased a new CZ P07 and after 150 rounds determined that I need to aim with a 6:00 hold, with the bullets impacting above the front sight. At 45" the front sight pretty much covers a 4" area on the target. Floating that 4" circle on top of the sights gets me hits within the circle.

The manual didn't specify how the sights are configured. The Ameriglo night sights I had on my Springfield XD gave me hits directly where put the front sight. My Walther PPQ pistols (.22 and Q5) also both impact exactly where the sight is pointing. Both have adjustable rear sights but aimed this way from the factory and I've never adjusted them. "Put the dot where the bullet should go" seems intuitive to me. I have an XS Big Dot sight on another gun, and they say the sights become a 6:00 hold beyond 45 feet because of the bullet flight path

Anyways I'm looking at new sights for the CZ regardless and asked this question of Cajun Gun Works. Their response was:

"The world standard for all iron sights is a 6:00 hold, CZ's adhere to this as well, as do our sights. We would not do the sight correction for a "hold on" type sight picture, this would be custom ordered sights."

Is this really the case for most three dot iron sights?

What does everyone prefer? Is there an advantage to a 6:00 hold in defensive situations? With Little time to align sights under stress I'd think just putting the front sight on the target are would be the best choice.

Anyways, just looking for perspective. At least I know my new sights aren't misaligned, they're just intended to aim differently than I'm used to.
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Old November 9, 2017, 11:10 AM   #2
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The world standard they say? Interesting. Someone here will hopefully post the standard image of the different sight pictures. Most of the pistols I've used are not 6 o'clock. Typically the front sight has to overlap the desired POI to some extent.

You can get sights as you desire for your CZ. Dawson Precision will set up the POA/POI anyway you want.


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Old November 9, 2017, 11:18 AM   #3
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I prefer my sight dot to cover the target. No 6 o'clock for me.
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Old November 9, 2017, 11:42 AM   #4
RickB
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There is no such thing as "a" 6:00 hold, as using that sight alignment requires a single load, at a single distance, on a target of known, consistent diameter.

On a 9mm pistol, you could have a gun intended to hit 1" above POA at 25yds with factory 115gr ammo, but, of course, that gun could not also hit 3" above POA at 50 yards with factory 147gr ammo (except by coincidence).

6:00 is specific to the distance, target diameter, load, and the shooter.

I prefer that bullets land "on top of the front sight" at 25 yards, as that's a practical zero for any shooting I'm going to do. I rarely ever shoot at anything smaller than 6", and distances are rarely beyond 25 yards, so I can aim at the center and get a hit if I do my part.
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Old November 9, 2017, 12:08 PM   #5
jetinteriorguy
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The advantage to a 6 o'clock hold is the sight doesn't obscure the target.
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Old November 9, 2017, 05:02 PM   #6
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Quote:
There is no such thing as "a" 6:00 hold, as using that sight alignment requires a single load, at a single distance, on a target of known, consistent diameter.
A very astute observation. If you think about it, it makes sense.

I didn't figure this out on my own but was told this back in my youth when I did some target shooting.

The six o'clock hold was what we used. for target shooting. We were told it was easier to be more precise. That is, if you tell somebody to keep the smallest possible sliver of light between the top of the front post and bullseye so that the bullseye just touches the front site post, (the image I link to calls it the pumpkin on the fence post) they can be more 'discerning' than if you tell them to put the top of the front post even with the center of the bullseye. And as RickB said, this shooting was always done at the same distance with the same size targets with the same size circular bullseyes on the targets.

Here's a link to a Google image...there are LOTS of sight pictures in Google...
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...=1510265326169

Last edited by DaleA; November 9, 2017 at 05:16 PM. Reason: added a link to Google image for sight pictures
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Old November 9, 2017, 05:37 PM   #7
WVsig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
The world standard they say? Interesting. Someone here will hopefully post the standard image of the different sight pictures. Most of the pistols I've used are not 6 o'clock. Typically the front sight has to overlap the desired POI to some extent.

You can get sights as you desire for your CZ. Dawson Precision will set up the POA/POI anyway you want.


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Old November 9, 2017, 07:47 PM   #8
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Sight picture will vary based on distance to the target and the load you are using.

A pistol that hits well with a 6 o-clock hold at 25yds, may need a standard hold at 7yds. (sight pic 2 above)

A pistol may use all three styles for different ranges.


Thing is... For defense, it doesn't matter what hold you use. Pick your favorite and use it consistently. (type 2 and 3 above are arguably better suited for defense though)

All should net you center of mass hits from 0-25yds. Defense shooting tends to focus on effective hits quickly. Two or three hits to COM that can stay within the center scoring area of an IDPA target, is better than one perfectly centered hit.


As far as the "6 o-clock doesn't obscure the target" thing... Thats more relevant to target shooting than defensive shooting. the average person is a lot bigger behind the sights than a bullseye is. You are aiming at COM, which is not a small area.


If you are a target shooter, then sight picture matters more, and you will be shooting at known distances and sized targets.
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Old November 9, 2017, 10:12 PM   #9
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Quote:
"The world standard for all iron sights is a 6:00 hold, CZ's adhere to this as well, as do our sights. We would not do the sight correction for a "hold on" type sight picture, this would be custom ordered sights."

Is this really the case for most three dot iron sights?

What does everyone prefer? Is there an advantage to a 6:00 hold in defensive situations? With Little time to align sights under stress I'd think just putting the front sight on the target are would be the best choice.
Fixed iron sights are set for a 6 o'clock hold on a 6" bull at 25 yards with a specific weight bullet that is "standard" for the caliber. 230 gr. for a 45, 158 gr. for a 38 Spl. or .357, etc. It's been this way for over a century. Change the weight of the bullet and the point of impact will change. This is generally the case with service sized handguns.

This is off the sights. The dots are irrelevant.

This means that if the shooter is steady enough a shot taken with a 6 o'clock hold on a 6" bull will land 3" high, in the middle of that bull, at 25 yards.

It's also why folks use adjustable sights.

In reality from 3 feet out to 25 yards the difference is minimal an inch or 2" depending on the round. Most shooters can't actually tell the difference.

In defensive shooting it will make no practical difference. Try it and see for yourself.

If you let it get inside your head, then adjustable sights are an option.

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Last edited by tipoc; November 9, 2017 at 10:18 PM.
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Old November 10, 2017, 11:48 AM   #10
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Quote:
Fixed iron sights are set for a 6 o'clock hold on a 6" bull at 25 yards with a specific weight bullet that is "standard" for the caliber. 230 gr. for a 45, 158 gr. for a 38 Spl. or .357, etc. It's been this way for over a century. Change the weight of the bullet and the point of impact will change. This is generally the case with service sized handguns.

This is off the sights. The dots are irrelevant.

This means that if the shooter is steady enough a shot taken with a 6 o'clock hold on a 6" bull will land 3" high, in the middle of that bull, at 25 yards.
I've owned 80+ handguns. The overwhelming majority did not impact 3" high at 25 yds. I don't doubt that there are pistols set up this way, but I do not believe it is the norm for defensive pistol sights.
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Old November 10, 2017, 12:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
The overwhelming majority did not impact 3" high at 25 yds. I don't doubt that there are pistols set up this way, but I do not believe it is the norm for defensive pistol sights.
It's the norm. The difference is the average hand, the stocks, the weight of the bullet, differences in manufacturing, etc. A 125 gr. pill will have a lower poi than a 158 gr. in a 38 or 357, a 230 gr. from a GM will have a higher poi than a 185 gr.

Also, what's the difference between a "defensive" handgun and most others? Over the decades the main difference between a "target" gun and a "duty" gun has been adjustable sights. Though over the years many duty sidearms have had adjustable sights to cover just the situation we're discussing.

The "norm" means that there are guns outside of that. What many manufacturers do with a wide variety of guns these days, from micro compacts to duty size, well I don't know. In some cases they may be set at shorter distances for sub compact guns. It's also likely that, given the popularity of the 125 gr. bullets in the .357 Mag, that some .357s with fixed sights are, nowdays, set for poa/poi, I would not doubt that these days.

Going back generations S&W, Colt, Ruger and others in the U.S. and internationally use the same formulas based on bullet weight, distance between front and rear sights and the relationship between the height of the front to the rear sight to center line of the bore, to set a norm, a standard.

Julian Hatcher explained this a long way back.

The best way to check this for oneself is to get some ammo that you know is accurate from your gun, of different weight bullets, and go to the range and shoot at 25 yards off of a rest. See what you see.

The fellas at CZ told the fella right. You can always get a front sight that is too tall and file it to suit your tastes.

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Old November 10, 2017, 01:00 PM   #12
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I disdain having to hold 6'oclock, sight image #2 or #3 in post 7 are acceptable.
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Old November 10, 2017, 01:20 PM   #13
TunnelRat
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The best way to check this for oneself is to get some ammo that you know is accurate from your gun, of different weight bullets, and go to the range and shoot at 25 yards off of a rest. See what you see.
I've done that. My experience, as stated above, has not shown what you said. This is shooting 124 gr 9mm at 25 yds with a variety of manufacturers out of each pistol. We're also not talking revolvers, and while I don't expect that to make a notable difference in terms of ballistics what was the standard set up 30 years ago may not be now. The overwhelming majority of semiautomatic duty style 9mms I have owned, and again that covers Ruger, SIG, S&W, Glock, Walther, HK, CZ even, etc, follow more of the second or third sight picture in terms of POA=POI.
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Old November 10, 2017, 01:20 PM   #14
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It only makes a difference when shooting at paper at 25 yards, if the shooter is good enough to notice a difference. Pick the one you like best for everyday work. It will make no practical difference.

In a defensive bit of shooting, where the thing you are shooting at (critter or person) is moving and you are moving how much difference will it make? Likely none.One reason is that you won't have that much time for a fine aim unless you can get the both of you to stand still for a few seconds and stop breathing so hard and have no adrenaline shake.

Take a 3" bullseye and set it up at 10 yards from you at the range. Fire 10 or 12 rounds till you can keep all your shots inside the 3" ring. Try it several times using different points of aim with your chosen ammo. See what, if any practical difference it makes. Use different guns, different ammo. Take a year to test it.

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Old November 10, 2017, 01:24 PM   #15
TunnelRat
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Quote:
In a defensive bit of shooting, where the thing you are shooting at (critter or person) is moving and you are moving how much difference will it make? Likely none.One reason is that you won't have that much time for a fine aim unless you can get the both of you to stand still for a few seconds and stop breathing so hard and have no adrenaline shake.
I'm well aware of that, but I'm trying to address the OP's question.

Quote:
Take a 3" bullseye and set it up at 10 yards from you at the range. Fire 10 or 12 rounds till you can keep all your shots inside the 3" ring. Try it several times using different points of aim with your chosen ammo. See what, if any practical difference it makes. Use different guns, different ammo. Take a year to test it.
I've been doing this essentially every weekend for years now. I have had different sights require slightly different holds. It's never overly dramatic, but I have switched out front sights for different heights.
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Old November 10, 2017, 01:40 PM   #16
OhioGuy
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Thanks for the thorough explanations!

Sight picture #1 is what lands accurate shots for me beyond about 45 feet so far, leveling the tops of all the sights.

Leveling the dots results in something more like #2.

If I'm not taking lots of time to aim, yeah, it makes little difference! And definitely not at 25' and under.
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Old November 10, 2017, 05:04 PM   #17
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Tunnel rat,

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying. I apologize.

To the OP, Cajun ought to be able to install fixed sights that can help you in one way or another. If they are oversized you may have to file on them some. If they can't talk to someone else. The options are out there to fit guns to our preferences.



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Old November 10, 2017, 06:08 PM   #18
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No apology needed. In the end your last comment is right. Sights can be made to fit whatever the shooter wants. You can file them or in some cases buy fronts of varying height.

Quote:
Sight picture #1 is what lands accurate shots for me beyond about 45 feet so far, leveling the tops of all the sights.

Leveling the dots results in something more like #2.
If I read this right you mean that if you level the tops it does not also level the dots?
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Old November 10, 2017, 07:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
No apology needed. In the end your last comment is right. Sights can be made to fit whatever the shooter wants. You can file them or in some cases buy fronts of varying height.



If I read this right you mean that if you level the tops it does not also level the dots?
Correct. The dots don't appear level when the sight posts are. I have to dip the muzzle slightly to align the dots.
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Old November 10, 2017, 08:10 PM   #20
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I use the 6 o'clock hold , it all depends on the size of the target , meaning I want my bullet to hit on top of the front sight .as an example , if I'm shooting at a baseball at 25 yards my hold is at the base of the ball . Shooting at a basketball my hold would would be lower to center.
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Old November 10, 2017, 08:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marine6680
Sight picture will vary based on distance to the target and the load you are using.

A pistol that hits well with a 6 o-clock hold at 25yds, may need a standard hold at 7yds. (sight pic 2 above)

A pistol may use all three styles for different ranges.
CORRECT!

Because the bullet trajectory does not align with the sight line, the point of impact on the target will vary from the point of aim depending on the range to the target.

Here's a test I did with one of my pistols awhile back.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=503476



One look at that plot will make it clear that there's NO WAY for a pistol to shoot to exactly the same point of impact at different distances with the same point of aim.

It is possible to get a flatter trajectory than is shown in the picture, but there must be some variation in the point of impact due to trajectory differences as the range changes.
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Old November 10, 2017, 09:28 PM   #22
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That chart looks like it shows 5" of variation over 25 yds. My only point of reference is I remember 9" of drop at 100 yds.

http://gundata.org/blog/post/9mm-ballistics-chart/

The chart above doesn't show as much variation, but I imagine that depends on the load.
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Last edited by TunnelRat; November 10, 2017 at 10:37 PM.
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Old November 10, 2017, 11:05 PM   #23
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A 6 oclock hold is not uncommon at distances you're talking about.

Maybe I'm old school. In my professional training the 6 o'clock hold (also called "pumpkin on a post" or "lollipop hold") was well regarded as you can see the target. It helps me focus on the front sight post better. When I have to "cut" the target with the sight post its more difficult for me to focus on the sight post as I seem to bounce between it and the target.

At the end of the day it really is just personal preference though. I will say a lollipop hold is a fairly common, and often preferred, phenomenon.
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Old November 10, 2017, 11:50 PM   #24
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Quote:
That chart looks like it shows 5" of variation over 25 yds. My only point of reference is I remember 9" of drop at 100 yds.
The amount of variation depends on how the gun is zeroed.

Most of the fixed sighted pistols I've had the opportunity to shoot are set up roughly like the one in the plot. They will hit below the point of aim at very close ranges, (inside 5 yards) with the bullets hitting just above the sight out to 10-15 yards and several inches high out around 20-25 yards.

But if you wanted to, you could zero the gun differently and get either more or less variation over that range depending on the relationship of the line of the sights to the bore line.

For example, in the link you posted, the pistol is zeroed for 25 yards (line of sight and point of aim coincide exactly at 25 yards) which keeps the midrange height quite low compared to the point of aim--under half an inch. This type of setup, however, precludes using a true 6 O'clock hold at any range since the bullet is never more than half an inch above the sights.

One could also zero the pistol for 100 yards which would result in quite a high midrange height.

Not having shot groups with that particular pistol past 25 yards I couldn't tell you where it is zeroed, but I can tell you from the 25 yard trajectory that the line of sight and point of aim will coincide exactly somewhere well past 25 yards. Maybe 50 yards or further.
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Old November 11, 2017, 05:42 AM   #25
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I want the bullet hole to appear directly on top of the front sight. #2 in the diagram of sight pictures.

Factory Sigs hit where the dot is. Drives me nuts. I always switch out the front sight. I don’t want the front sight covering where I want the bullet to go. No biggie at 7-10 etc. at 50 yards, it’s covering the whole target.
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