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Old October 28, 2017, 09:50 AM   #1
Torre
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Defensive round, when JHP is illegal

Hi forumers,

This is my first post

I live in a country that permits concealed carry and self-defense, but unfortunately hollow points are illegal, as well as carrying a gun with one in the chamber (except revolvers).

I've been trying to look for 'the next best thing' to JHP as a carry/home defense round, but I'd like to know what would you folks recommend, and maybe point me towards some ammo that is a good self defense round but not categorized as a hollow point.

The only ones I've been able to find readily in stores here is this Fiocchi Top Defense 'Black Mamaba' FMJ, which is a very light (100 grain) and fast truncated cone bullet, with a Teflon jacketed lead core.



And this standard 124 grain Soft Point from Sellier & Bellot. From what I have understood Soft Points don't expand at pistol velocity very well?



My gun is a Glock 17FS.

Thank you!
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Old October 28, 2017, 10:32 AM   #2
tranders
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Look into Federal Guard Dog or Corbon Power ball. Both of these are non hollow point,but are expanding self defense ammo. Another might be the Glaser safety slug. These have a polymer tip with shot inside.

Hope this helps.
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Old October 28, 2017, 10:39 AM   #3
Jim Watson
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Federal EFMJ - Expanding Full Metal Jacket - might serve, if it is still actually available, I have not seen it in stock recently.
It has a plastic ball inside the jacket that flattens on impact, causing the bullet to expand like a rivet.
https://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...unds?a=1154041

The current attempts at a more effective bullet without hollowpoint include the Ruger ARX/Polycase
http://www.downrange.tv/blog/ruger-a...eptorammo.com/
and the Lehigh Defense.
https://www.lehighdefense.com/produc...ant=4431999236

I don't know if these are in worldwide distribution yet.

If not, the original 1902 9mm load was a truncated cone and the USAF studied the design again in 1980 in an effort to get more impact from a full jacketed bullet.

There was a law enforcement agency here that used softpoint bullets to avoid bad publicity about those dangerous hollowpoints. It did not work very well and they finally modernized. By then, nobody cared.
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Old October 28, 2017, 10:47 AM   #4
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You may want to take a look at bullets with an Expanding Full Metal Jacket (EFMJ) Here's a link to ballistic gelatin test results from a small 9mm pistol where four of five Federal Guard Dog bullets expanded like hollow points. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRba48Qxg7E.

Added: tranders and Jim Watson beat me to it.
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Old October 28, 2017, 11:12 AM   #5
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"...Soft Points don't expand at pistol velocity..." If an HP will expand, so will an SP. HP's require velocity to expand reliably. Mind you, it really makes no difference whether it's an HP, SP, FMJ or a cast bullet. They'll all do nicely.
"...Federal EFMJ..." Loaded in their Guard Dog line. "Filled with an expanding blue polymer."
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Old October 28, 2017, 11:25 AM   #6
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In addition to the good advice above you can also consider going with a heavier bullet.

Buffalo Bore produces their well reviewed "Outdoorsman" 147 gr. load. With a lead flat point bullet.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/49...nose-box-of-20

Federal produces a truncated cone 147 gr. bullet that does about 1000 fps they say.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/17...cket-box-of-50

Fiocchi produces a 158 gr. pill in ball.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/29...cket-box-of-50

There are quite a number of options available these days.

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Old October 28, 2017, 12:06 PM   #7
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If they are legal and available there, Hornady Critical Defense has been catching on a bit over here stateside. They are another brand with a soft point (polymer in their case). Tests I have seen have been pretty positive.
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Old October 28, 2017, 12:08 PM   #8
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Not knowing how the S&B 9mm sp perform, I would look at a flat nose bullet or something that had a large medplat. I also have not seen EFMJ in stock for a while...I wonder if they are still in production.
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Old October 28, 2017, 12:41 PM   #9
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The Fiocchi Black Mamba is a good choice.

But then any 9mm round is going to be adequate for self-defense. It is a pervasive myth that the only adequate self-defense round is one so powerful it will break the assailant's neck if it hits him on the little finger.

It is also a myth that soft point ammunition doesn't expand well at pistol velocities. Whether the bullet expands all depends on its construction. How hard is the lead, how thick is the jacket, how is it formed, etc. It is easy to build a soft point that will expand nicely at 850 fps (260 mps) and it's equally easy to build a soft point that will hardly expand at all at 1,200 fps (370 mps).
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Old October 28, 2017, 12:46 PM   #10
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Interesting to hear gun laws from all over the world... very few make sense, its like they needed to do something... anything, but something...

In my country hollow points are not ilegal but I prefer not to use them because cops are always giving trouble for them...So very interested on this post.
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Old October 28, 2017, 12:57 PM   #11
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Would .45 be that much more effective if using ball ammo?
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Old October 28, 2017, 01:24 PM   #12
lee n. field
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torre View Post
Hi forumers,

This is my first post

I live in a country that permits concealed carry and self-defense, but unfortunately hollow points are illegal, as well as carrying a gun with one in the chamber (except revolvers).
Estonia, by any chance? There's a guy from Estonia on TFL, who's mentioned limitations like that.

Not being able to carry chambered is a big deal, and would make me inclined to carry a revolver. (That, BTW, sounds like a law made by folks who don't know guns well.)
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Old October 28, 2017, 02:00 PM   #13
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+1

No question I would carry a revolver vs. carrying an unloaded pistol.

I struggled with Glock, no safety and I carried it for the first month effectively unloaded. A good holster made all the difference for me.

Are you going to have time to rack the slide??? Maybe..........however I am not going to take that chance.
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Old October 28, 2017, 04:14 PM   #14
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New Jersey severely limits the use of hollow points. They are essentially illegal for defensive purposes. http://www.njsp.org/firearms/transpo...lowpoint.shtml
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Old October 28, 2017, 05:43 PM   #15
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Personally I'd just carry whatever 124 gr FMJ target ammo. Make sure the gun's reliable.

What country are you in?
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Old October 28, 2017, 06:57 PM   #16
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How about some of the copper bullets that use fluid transfer technology?

https://www.lehighdefense.com/

I've started using these for carry after watching a number of videos showing ballistics gel testing.
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Old October 28, 2017, 07:46 PM   #17
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Personally I'd just carry whatever 124 gr FMJ target ammo. Make sure the gun's reliable.
+1. Pretty much it.
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Old October 28, 2017, 08:04 PM   #18
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9mm NATO spec ball. Just learn to shoot and make a habit of training for CNS hits.

Pistol ammo sucks. Federal HST/Gold Dot/PDXranger etc. is good ammo but is certainly not a cruise missile vs ball. In the internet age we get hung up on hardware vs software. High end HP ammo is good stuff and provides advantages beyond terminal ballistics but being loaded up with a mag of NATO spec 9mm ball certainly doesn’t make you unarmed and throwing nerf darts.

I always chuckle at these threads. We are all gun geeks and want the best high speed low drag stuff we can get (present poster just as guilty) but at the end of the day there are millions of folks with an old Webley revolver or SAA or Taurus or .380 PPK or any number of other arms loaded up with either the cheapest ball ammo around or ammo made a century ago and they have in many cases defended themselves just fine.

A whole heap of good and bad people fell to .45 and 9mm hardball. People haven’t changed all that much physically.

Live your life in a lawful way, don’t rub another man’s rhubarb so to speak and don’t flaunt your wealth and chances are you will never have to concern yourself with ammo quality. God willing.
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Last edited by cslinger; October 28, 2017 at 08:14 PM.
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Old October 29, 2017, 05:08 AM   #19
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JSP - handgun ammo - is the pits.

It expands, but, the expansion is so unpredictable it's useless.

I guess it beats a FMJ. but, given the choice, I'd rather have just about anything else.

Cast lead beats a JSP hands down any day of the week.
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Old October 29, 2017, 07:13 AM   #20
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9mm NATO spec ball. Just learn to shoot and make a habit of training for CNS hits.
This is what I'd do.

Quote:
Would .45 be that much more effective if using ball ammo?
No.
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Old October 29, 2017, 06:08 PM   #21
Super Sneaky Steve
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Switch to a revolver and cast your own using 100% pure lead.
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Old October 29, 2017, 08:01 PM   #22
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Quote:
9mm NATO spec ball
This.
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Old October 30, 2017, 01:59 AM   #23
Torre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lee n. field View Post
Estonia, by any chance? There's a guy from Estonia on TFL, who's mentioned limitations like that.
Good guess

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewsky View Post
What country are you in?
Estonia (North Eastern Europe)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cslinger View Post
I always chuckle at these threads. We are all gun geeks and want the best high speed low drag stuff we can get (present poster just as guilty) but at the end of the day there are millions of folks with an old Webley revolver or SAA or Taurus or .380 PPK or any number of other arms loaded up with either the cheapest ball ammo around or ammo made a century ago and they have in many cases defended themselves just fine.
The thing I should perhaps have made clear in the first post, is that I'm not looking for an ammo which will do the most damage.

My concern is purely overpenetration. I spend my time mostly in urban areas with lots of people around, and I live in an apartment building. Would I ever be in the unlikely and tragic position of having to use my weapon, I want it to have a round in it that will exhaust most of it's enegry when it hits an object, and not pass through two walls and a neighbor after that.
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Old October 30, 2017, 02:24 AM   #24
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In this instance, I believe the Polycase ammunition that uses a copper and polymer bullet would be a top choice. They have a lower penetration than 9mm fmj does and they are a frangible bullet, so they will shatter if they hit something hard enough, thus they won't go through it.

They also have less recoil because the bullets weigh much less than normal. They lead free, so there's no way a law against use of lead ammunition will make them illegal or something.

I've been pretty supportive of this ammunition the past few weeks because in .380 I believe it is all around the best choice for self defense. In 9mm we in the US and other parts of the world have better choices than the 9mm Polycase ammo, but that doesn't mean it's ineffective. In fact, it's quite good and it is far, FAR better than FMJ.

But someone here mentioned a revolver and I would say if you can't keep a round in the chamber, you should look at getting a revolver instead and using semi or full wadcutter bullets.

EDIT: and here is a link to that Polycase ammunition. They make a round nose "practice" ammo and one with flutes cut in the nose of the bullet which is supposed to cause more damage, but because it's such a light and fast bullet, the bullet hits tissue, the bullet tumbles and the flutes in the nose don't do anything, but it causes a lot more damage than a standard FMJ bullet does. Thus, I think the "practice" ammo that Polycase makes will work just as well for defense as the actual defense ammunition with the flutes does.
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Old October 30, 2017, 08:29 AM   #25
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My concern is purely overpenetration. I spend my time mostly in urban areas with lots of people around, and I live in an apartment building. Would I ever be in the unlikely and tragic position of having to use my weapon, I want it to have a round in it that will exhaust most of it's enegry when it hits an object, and not pass through two walls and a neighbor after that.
My concern is getting hits.
A miss is going do a lot more damage than a shoot through.

But since you are worried about "overpenetration", if you cannot get any of the trick bullets mentioned here, look for light weight and high velocity.
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