Load count

4runnerman · June 24, 2014, 06:42 PM

Ok-Here's a good one for debate. Brass life and accuracy.
I have been told by many that the more you shoot brass the more accuracy you will lose. I have 6BR Brass that has been loaded 18 times and have not found this to be true. Accuracy is still what it was when brass was new.

Opinion's,Comments,ect?.

boondocker385 · June 24, 2014, 08:28 PM

Question. How often do you anneal?

Jimro · June 24, 2014, 08:59 PM

Quote:

I have been told by many that the more you shoot brass the more accuracy you will lose. I have 6BR Brass that has been loaded 18 times and have not found this to be true. Accuracy is still what it was when brass was new.

My experience is that with 308 Win vigin brass is generally a hair more accurate than reloads.

Of course I'm using a factory chamber/barrel and action. Bart B. maintains that a trued bolt face will maintain accuracy between virgin and reloaded brass and I think that definitely holds some truth.

So using a 6BR I would expect a blueprinted action and tight chamber with minimal resizin between firings, so it would make sense that accuracy would be maintained much longer.

Jimro

4runnerman · June 24, 2014, 09:10 PM

Boondocker- I anneal every 4th load. I by far am no pro,but I have noticed no difference in accuracy.

Jimro- It is a Target action and a custom hand lapped barrel. I bump shoulders about 2 thousands. I started with 300 cases and after 18 reloads I have lost 4 to case neck cracks. I do load a pretty stout load for the 1000 and 1200 yard matches.

What I am looking for is other peoples thoughts or better yet-there experience with their reloads.

I am also waiting for Bart to chime in too. Along with Brian P. Both who have a vast amount of expertise.

Magnum Wheel Man · June 25, 2014, 06:00 AM

as of my load regiment, I try to keep track of the brass, & put on my recipe on each box, how many times it's been reloaded... if it was brass I acquired used, I put a ?+1, ?+2, etc. for each loading...

I don't compete, but strive for most accuracy... I've not really noticed a difference in accuracy level, between say 3rd reloading, & 7th reloading, so long as the brass is still in good shape... unfortunately I never had the chance to spend much time with virgin brass, but that's supposed to hold the edge...

along the lines already discussed, I'd think, the more true your action is, the less difference your used cases would show??? & unless the brass is degrading, I can understand the difference between virgin brass, & a 3rd reload, but, I wouldn't understand how the 3rd reload could be different from the 10th reload, so long as there aren't significant differences in case weights, work hardness, or thickness of the brass

Clark · June 25, 2014, 11:03 AM

My 6mmBR reamer has a .272" neck [no turn, but tight].
The neck does not stretch much.
But one of my 6mmBR rifles is an old 1917 Save 99 takedown.
When loaded up near primers piercing, the case is stretching base to shoulder .003".

Not much future for THAT brass.

Brian Pfleuger · June 25, 2014, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Along with Brian P. Both who have a vast amount of expertise.

I think you've begged me to the wrong tree, my friend. I just read a lot. I don't know a damn thing.

My most used brass goes in my .204. I've got about 80 cases and some has been shot more than 10 times, annealed once.

Unfortunately, for the purposes of this question, I don't segregate my cases. I suppose the reason for that contributes to an answer though... I never saw any difference. I segregated them at first, different boxes for 1 reload, 2, 3... One day I didn't have enough brass in my 1 reload box so I wondered how much it mattered to mix it. I took the remainder of what I need from the 3 reload box and so no difference at all, so I stopped separating them.

That's about all I can tell you on it.

Bart B. · June 25, 2014, 08:47 PM

Read post 47 in:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ight=57&page=2

I've known people to load Winchester .308 and .30-06 brass several dozen times and it doesn't loose accuracy. But the key is to size down fired cases no more than .002" in diameter and set back shoulders no more than .002" There has to be at least .001" of head clearance to ensure the bolt doesn't bind when closed else its head won't go back into battery at exactly the same place for each shot.

savagelover · June 26, 2014, 07:42 AM

I has been my experince that the more loading,the thiner
the necks do get.There for changing the tention on the
bullet...This may or may not increase your accuracy..
As neck tention,can have a big effect on accuracy..I to have
some Lapua,that has been loaded 25 times..I shoot mild
loads to save the barrel throat as well..I have been taught
anything much over 3000 fps.will wear a barrel faster..
I have over 4000 rounds thru a 223 barrel and it still shoots
great..No hot roder here..
But back to your question,You will find the necks get thinner
and this will cause ,like I said a possible change in your accuracy..

Bart B. · June 26, 2014, 07:57 AM

How much thinner?

savagelover · June 26, 2014, 08:06 AM

I have had some as much as .0015....Not all of them will be effected..
You can measure tham and see or sometimes you can tell by weighing
them.But I don't bother with it any more.Too time cunsuming..
For match ammo,I use the ones that have only been fired 2 to 4 times.

Magnum Wheel Man · June 26, 2014, 08:07 AM

think you need to fix your measurement

Bart B. · June 26, 2014, 09:33 AM

Savagelover, how would weighing cases prove their neck walls got thinner?

Too many people have fired the same case a few dozen times and seen no degradation in accuracy for me to believe that necks thin too much after a few reloading cycles.

How would you explain my friends 57 shots from the same case that was never annealed but full length sized every time putting all those bullets into about 3/10ths inch at 100 yards? Maybe accuracy did degrade a couple ten thousandths inch but wasn't able to be measured that precicely.

savagelover · June 26, 2014, 10:12 AM

now you getting too tech. and I do not believe the story about your friend..
Show me,and then maybe..If a case isn't thin and brittle,why will it crack then..I don't get it..

Brian Pfleuger · June 26, 2014, 10:30 AM

Brittle and thin are not synonymous. The necks crack because the brass gets work hardened. The less it's worked, in a tight chamber and with minimal sizing, the less it gets work hardened.

I have no trouble at all believing 57 accurate shots with a properly handled case.

Bart B. · June 26, 2014, 10:42 AM

Savagelover, the reason cases will last that long is they're not sized enough to overcome their elasticity.

Contact Sierra Bullets then ask them how many times they reload cases testing their best match bullets getting 1/4 MOA accuracy at 200 yards. They don't even work up loads for different component lots nor a new test barrel.

Sign up on the forum at accurateshooter.com then ask them how many loads per case the winners and record setters get.

4runnerman · June 26, 2014, 12:21 PM

Intresting Read ( Post 47 ) Bart. I just hear that so many times ,About loosing Accuracy after so many reloads and have never found that to be true.

savagelover · June 26, 2014, 03:40 PM

but it is true to an extent..I have often had a nice group
go sour with a bad case.And after getting home check the neck
thickness,to find it is thinner than some of the others..
I have seen it happen to others as well..So don't say it isn't true.

A thinner neck is going to cause a different bullet release.And
this may or may not cause a flier..

Bart B. · June 26, 2014, 04:24 PM

Of course, a thin neck amongst a batch of thick ones will cause a group to go sour. So does an extra 2 grains of powder. Or an extra 10 grains of bullet weight.

I didn't think this neck thinning issue was limited to a single case amongst others that were not thin. Especially when the following comment was made:

Quote:

And after getting home check the neck thickness, to find it is thinner than some of the others.

Does this mean the rest of the "others" had necks at the same thickness?

savagelover · June 26, 2014, 05:34 PM

sure it does Bart.Have you not ever measured your
necks after several fireing's.I have.

Slamfire · June 26, 2014, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Ok-Here's a good one for debate. Brass life and accuracy.

I have been told by many that the more you shoot brass the more accuracy you will lose. I have 6BR Brass that has been loaded 18 times and have not found this to be true. Accuracy is still what it was when brass was new

Very interesting. There are better shots than me, but if I fire brass all reloaded the same number of times, I still have excellent results. I took a set of LC 308 22 reloads in a M1a, I lubricated the cases to prevent case head separations, and I was shooting HM scores in the rapids.

I am of the opinion that this issue is one of those things that are stated as a fact, but was never actually tested to see if it was true. Conventional wisdom is often bunk.

Bart B. · June 26, 2014, 08:34 PM

Have I ever measured my case necks after several firings?

Yes; on one Federal .308 case every time it was fired 47 and reloaded 46 times. Measured loaded round neck diameter after each fire, resize and reload cycle. It stayed at .338" +/- a few tenths.

Muzzle velocity was also constant a bit over 2600 fps average with an SD of 9.

June 24, 2014, 06:42 PM	#1
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	Load count Ok-Here's a good one for debate. Brass life and accuracy. I have been told by many that the more you shoot brass the more accuracy you will lose. I have 6BR Brass that has been loaded 18 times and have not found this to be true. Accuracy is still what it was when brass was new. Opinion's,Comments,ect?. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

June 24, 2014, 08:28 PM	#2
boondocker385 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2013 Posts: 640	Question. How often do you anneal? __________________ No second place finishes in a gun fight.

June 24, 2014, 09:10 PM	#4
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	Boondocker- I anneal every 4th load. I by far am no pro,but I have noticed no difference in accuracy. Jimro- It is a Target action and a custom hand lapped barrel. I bump shoulders about 2 thousands. I started with 300 cases and after 18 reloads I have lost 4 to case neck cracks. I do load a pretty stout load for the 1000 and 1200 yard matches. What I am looking for is other peoples thoughts or better yet-there experience with their reloads. I am also waiting for Bart to chime in too. Along with Brian P. Both who have a vast amount of expertise. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

June 25, 2014, 06:00 AM	#5
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	as of my load regiment, I try to keep track of the brass, & put on my recipe on each box, how many times it's been reloaded... if it was brass I acquired used, I put a ?+1, ?+2, etc. for each loading... I don't compete, but strive for most accuracy... I've not really noticed a difference in accuracy level, between say 3rd reloading, & 7th reloading, so long as the brass is still in good shape... unfortunately I never had the chance to spend much time with virgin brass, but that's supposed to hold the edge... along the lines already discussed, I'd think, the more true your action is, the less difference your used cases would show??? & unless the brass is degrading, I can understand the difference between virgin brass, & a 3rd reload, but, I wouldn't understand how the 3rd reload could be different from the 10th reload, so long as there aren't significant differences in case weights, work hardness, or thickness of the brass __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

June 25, 2014, 11:03 AM	#6
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	My 6mmBR reamer has a .272" neck [no turn, but tight]. The neck does not stretch much. But one of my 6mmBR rifles is an old 1917 Save 99 takedown. When loaded up near primers piercing, the case is stretching base to shoulder .003". Not much future for THAT brass. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

June 25, 2014, 08:47 PM	#8
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Read post 47 in: http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ight=57&page=2 I've known people to load Winchester .308 and .30-06 brass several dozen times and it doesn't loose accuracy. But the key is to size down fired cases no more than .002" in diameter and set back shoulders no more than .002" There has to be at least .001" of head clearance to ensure the bolt doesn't bind when closed else its head won't go back into battery at exactly the same place for each shot.

June 26, 2014, 07:42 AM	#9
savagelover Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2011 Location: Alpine,,NY Posts: 254	I has been my experince that the more loading,the thiner the necks do get.There for changing the tention on the bullet...This may or may not increase your accuracy.. As neck tention,can have a big effect on accuracy..I to have some Lapua,that has been loaded 25 times..I shoot mild loads to save the barrel throat as well..I have been taught anything much over 3000 fps.will wear a barrel faster.. I have over 4000 rounds thru a 223 barrel and it still shoots great..No hot roder here.. But back to your question,You will find the necks get thinner and this will cause ,like I said a possible change in your accuracy..

June 26, 2014, 07:57 AM	#10
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	How much thinner?

June 26, 2014, 08:06 AM	#11
savagelover Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2011 Location: Alpine,,NY Posts: 254	I have had some as much as .0015....Not all of them will be effected.. You can measure tham and see or sometimes you can tell by weighing them.But I don't bother with it any more.Too time cunsuming.. For match ammo,I use the ones that have only been fired 2 to 4 times. Last edited by savagelover; June 26, 2014 at 10:09 AM.

June 26, 2014, 08:07 AM	#12
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	think you need to fix your measurement __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

June 26, 2014, 09:33 AM	#13
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Savagelover, how would weighing cases prove their neck walls got thinner? Too many people have fired the same case a few dozen times and seen no degradation in accuracy for me to believe that necks thin too much after a few reloading cycles. How would you explain my friends 57 shots from the same case that was never annealed but full length sized every time putting all those bullets into about 3/10ths inch at 100 yards? Maybe accuracy did degrade a couple ten thousandths inch but wasn't able to be measured that precicely. Last edited by Bart B.; June 26, 2014 at 10:02 AM.

June 26, 2014, 10:12 AM	#14
savagelover Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2011 Location: Alpine,,NY Posts: 254	now you getting too tech. and I do not believe the story about your friend.. Show me,and then maybe..If a case isn't thin and brittle,why will it crack then..I don't get it..

June 26, 2014, 10:30 AM	#15
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Brittle and thin are not synonymous. The necks crack because the brass gets work hardened. The less it's worked, in a tight chamber and with minimal sizing, the less it gets work hardened. I have no trouble at all believing 57 accurate shots with a properly handled case. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

June 26, 2014, 10:42 AM	#16
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Savagelover, the reason cases will last that long is they're not sized enough to overcome their elasticity. Contact Sierra Bullets then ask them how many times they reload cases testing their best match bullets getting 1/4 MOA accuracy at 200 yards. They don't even work up loads for different component lots nor a new test barrel. Sign up on the forum at accurateshooter.com then ask them how many loads per case the winners and record setters get.

June 26, 2014, 12:21 PM	#17
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	Intresting Read ( Post 47 ) Bart. I just hear that so many times ,About loosing Accuracy after so many reloads and have never found that to be true. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

June 26, 2014, 03:40 PM	#18
savagelover Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2011 Location: Alpine,,NY Posts: 254	but it is true to an extent..I have often had a nice group go sour with a bad case.And after getting home check the neck thickness,to find it is thinner than some of the others.. I have seen it happen to others as well..So don't say it isn't true. A thinner neck is going to cause a different bullet release.And this may or may not cause a flier..

June 26, 2014, 05:34 PM	#20
savagelover Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2011 Location: Alpine,,NY Posts: 254	sure it does Bart.Have you not ever measured your necks after several fireing's.I have.

June 26, 2014, 08:34 PM	#22
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Have I ever measured my case necks after several firings? Yes; on one Federal .308 case every time it was fired 47 and reloaded 46 times. Measured loaded round neck diameter after each fire, resize and reload cycle. It stayed at .338" +/- a few tenths. Muzzle velocity was also constant a bit over 2600 fps average with an SD of 9.