Info for new rifle buyers

[blackwidowp61]

Here is some info for those looking for a new rifle that should help you choose what you need for what you want:

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/re...bles_Rifle.pdf

http://www.shilen.com/calibersAndTwists.html

Hope this helps.

[PlatinumCore16]

These are awesome! Even after doing a bunch of research on this, these cheat sheets are great. Thank you!

[blackwidowp61]

Glad I could help!

It just seemed that there were a lot of people who wanted to know the best twist rates for what weight bullets and what caliber. Then having a list of what rifles have what twist rate in what caliber pretty much locks the deal up. At least that was what I saw most new rifle buyers asking about. Thought I'd give them a cheat sheet or two.

[dgludwig]

Thanks blackwidowp61; very helpful and instructive information.

[fourbore]

224 CF
- 7" for bullets heavier than 70 gr.
- 8" for bullets heavier than 70 gr.
- 9" for bullets up to 70 gr.
- 10" * for bullets up to 65 gr.
- 12" for bullets up to 63 gr.
- 14" for bullets up to 55 gr.

You really think members of this forum will believe this? After all what does shilen know?

[old roper]

This is Lilja on barrel twist

http://riflebarrels.com/faq-why-do-y...in-twist-rate/

[blackwidowp61]

I was seeing the same questions being posted over and over again so I thought that I'd post some general information that would help them out. I made no statement that what I was posting was the only information out there or that it was the end-all for information. Sheesh.

[old roper]

blackwidowp61, I think with so many different bullets be made today good to see different opinion. It is open forum

[blackwidowp61]

As I said, I just posted the info so people wouldn't have to keep asking the same questions over and over again. I notice that other forums have sticky notes that don't disappear after a month that contain info that answers frequently asked questions, yet this one has only one about a Thompson-Center recall. Why can't this forum do the same? Isn't it here to help answer FAQ like twist rate/bullet weight/caliber?

It also seems that there are people who read the posts just to pick them apart and snipe at them. I'm sure there is just as much differing info and opinions out there as snowflakes, but to just snipe away at posts isn't helping. Why not do something positive like gather all the info on twist rate/bullet weight/caliber that is out there and post it?

I also know that somebody will go back through all of the posts for the last six months and post that there were only X number of posts asking for info about twist rate/bullet weight/caliber, but is doing that a positive way of doing things? It just seemed to me, in the short time that I have been a member, that this was a FAQ that needn't be posted if there was my kind of info posted permanently.

I am not a negative person (just look at my signature and you'll see this) and I'm not trying to start an argument here, so please don't clutter up this thread with any more negative posts. It happens to too many other threads. Please post something as an aid to others.

[Art Eatman]

bw61, the trouble with stickies is that they become invisible. Members regularly initiate threads with questions on subjects which have been well-explained in stickied threads.

[old roper]

blackwidowp61, Problem you have with Shilen it on his barrels. It's not on Remington barrel or Sako barrel. They post what works in his barrels only. If someone looks at his deal and tries a bullet and doesn' work out do you think he's going to call Shilen.

Shilen sells barrel same as Kreiger,Boughton,Brux,Lilja,Rock Creek,Bartlein, and the list goes on. You can order barrel from any of them a get bullets that shoot in the twist they make for that barrel.

I'm not sniping just telling you how thing work.

[tobnpr]

^^^
What would be the difference between an 8" (or any other #) twist in a Shilen- vs. any other manufacturer's barrel?

[dgludwig]

[QUOTE] What would be the difference between an 8" (or any other #) twist in a Shilen- vs. any other manufacturer's barrel?

That would be my question. Irregardless of the material or the maker, wouldn't the rate of twist as compared to the bullet length (though the weight of the bullet is often cited as the determining factor, it's the length that counts, albeit longer bullets are generally heavier as a consequence) be the only relevant consideration in determining optimum stabilization/rotational equilibrium?

How much, if any, of a factor is the length of the barrel when determining the optimum relationship between bullet length and rate of twist?

[blackwidowp61]

I'm with tobnpr, is there really a difference from one barrel maker to the next if it's the same twist rate, bullet/weight/mfgr, same caliber being used and the same dimensions of the barrels? What would be the deciding factor then, the number of lands and grooves, the composition of the metal used for the barrel or what?

Art, if there were a sticky note covering someone's question, I'd be more than happy to have them refer to the sticky notes for good basic information, but I guess I'd be the only one from what you wrote. Oh well...

[tobnpr]

How much, if any, of a factor is the length of the barrel when determining the optimum relationship between bullet length and rate of twist?

Additional barrel length increases velocity, to a point- and the increases are dependent on all variables (chambering, bullet weight, powder) and to a lesser extent the barrel itself. They all perform a bit differently. Twist rate required for a fully stable bullet varies depending on the bullet and to a lesser extent (within reason) the barrel length.

This isn't a big deal for commonly used chamberings, bullets and velocities. But when pushing the "line" with some VLD's in certain applications it just makes sense to use an online calculator which will account for atmospheric conditions (altitude) which have more substantial impact on the answer.

Brian Litz probably knows more about these external ballistics than anyone else, books on the subject as well as a calculator:

http://www.bergerbullets.com/berger-...er-bryan-litz/

[old roper]

blackwidowp61, fourbore posts about Shilen 22 cal barrel and last twist was 14" for bullets up to 55 gr. So this is correct. So reloading manual are wrong if they list otherwise, Right.

I really have to admit I know nothing.

[blackwidowp61]

Say I would buy a representative barrel from every barrel maker out there with the exact same dimensions, the exact same twist rates for the same caliber. I then have one of you uber-reloaders take the exact same specific components and have you load up a few hundred rounds to the same exacting specs. I then take every barrel and attach each in turn to a universal receiver and fire X number of these same spec/component rounds out of each barrel. In all of this set-up, the only variables are the metal alloy of the barrels and/or the number of lands and grooves and how they were reamed into the barrel.

Wouldn't the performance of these barrels be the same?

[blackwidowp61]

Well, it's almost 14 hours later and no response to that question? I can't believe that I've stumped you folks. I can't remember that happening on this forum.

[Art Eatman]

Group size varies with bullet stability--or lack thereof. Stability comes from the rate of spin being righteous for a given length of bullet.

Why would barrel steel or the number of lands/grooves affect the spin rate? How?

We know that short bullets can provide tight groups with slow-twist barrels. We know that as bullets become heavier--and therefore longer--faster twists are needed to provide the proper rate of rotation.

It is also noted that as twist rates are faster, short bullets remain stable and still give tight groups. IOW, they're not "over-stabilized", whatever that means.

Which takes us back to the links in the first post in this thread.


I've now posted the links from the first post and stickied them. With credit.

[blackwidowp61]

It seemed to me that old roper implied that there was some difference between barrel makers,

[quote]Shilen sells barrel same as Kreiger ,Boughton, Brux, Lilja, Rock Creek, Bartlein, and the list goes on. You can order barrel from any of them a get bullets that shoot in the twist they make for that barrel.[end quote]

Since my question took away all of the variables from the different barrels (twist rate, chambers, contours and/or any other dimension(s) other than the metal alloy and the way the rifling was reamed into the barrel), had them mounted to the same universal receiver and fired the exact same ammo with the same bullets, wouldn't the performance of the barrels be essentially the same?

[fourbore]

I was seeing the same questions being posted over and over again so I thought that I'd post some general information that would help them out. I made no statement that what I was posting was the only information out there or that it was the end-all for information. Sheesh.

NO NO -- THIS IS GREAT INFORMATION!! I like very much.

The sarcasm was directed to these 'characters' who think you need a 1:8 twist on 223 VARMINT rifle. And naturally 1:7 is better and if only they could get a 1:6. Mind you not for some extreme long range sport with 100 grain bullets, but for a normal person shooting ground hogs who might even like to shoot bullets as heavy as 55 grains due to low cost availability.

Then to top it off, same data from anther source.

The bitter pill to swallow is the great old 222 was pretty much replaced with the 223. Now over time, those specific 223 guns that gave excellent service as a 222 replacement are all getting turned into black ops, Rambo jambo, 1000 yard whatchma clallits. What is left for varmint shooting. The 204 ruger?

I may even be on the wrong website. Ok, it is all just talk. But, not a slam on the op. Not in the least.

Yes, 14 does seem slow. I missed that, for 222 maybe. But 1:12 will work for 223 varmint guns and it is annoying to hear about 1:9 is too slow for varmint.