700 BDL Hates 180's - Help?

[BushmanTahou]

Hey all, First post here. I've got myself a Remington 700 BDL I use for my primary hunting gun. I've only recently gotten in to reloading, but I've already got sort of a conundrum. This rifle will drive tacks with 150 grain bullets (from the factory or hand loaded) but I have yet to find a 180 grain loading that I can get better than a 6" group with at 100 yards. To be fair, I haven't tried putting my own loads together yet, but I was hoping that someone with experience loading for this rifle might be able to chime in. To give you some idea, so far I've tried factory 180gr loads from Winchester (power-points and accu-bond CT's,) Remington (Core-lokt PSP and RN,) and Nosler (Accubond "Trophy Grade") all with similar results. Any ideas of where I should start? I'm more than happy using the 150's for whitetail, but if I go on another elk or moose hunt I'd much prefer to have a bit more bullet - I've been using a 150gr partition factory load so far, but I feel just a tad under-gunned. Thanks!

[Dufus]

You are not under gunned with a Partition.

If the 180s won't shoot, you should try some 200s since you are delegating those to heavier game. It'll only cost you some powder and a box of bullets.

IMR 4350, RL 17, and VV N560 works for me with the heavies.

I shoot mostly Accubonds, Partitions, and some Woodleigh.

[Unclenick]

Welcome to the forum.

If the groups are spread that wide, standard loads are simply out of synch with optimal barrel times for your gun's barrel. Load tuning is then in order or adding a barrel tuner to the muzzle is. Going either heavier or lighter may fix it. But before we go any further, please tell us what cartridge your rifle is chambered for. Otherwise we can't really suggest anything specific.

[std7mag]

Wholey agree with Unclenick!

What cartridge?

Your barrel is not liking the speed the "factory" loads are producing.
Handloads with different powders may help.
Along with different COAL.

[jmr40]

My rifle doesn't shoot 180's as well as 165's, but the difference isn't anywhere near that much. Bullet construction is more important than weight. A tough 150 will get the job done as well or better than a soft 180.

[BushmanTahou]

I'm sorry! How could I forget the damned cartridge! I'm shooting a .30-06'

For powder, I've got some 4895 on hand right now that I've been using to home-brew M2 ball for my M1, but definitely have room for more powder on the shelf! For a pretty light-duty Whitetail load I've been shooting 46gr of that under a 150gr Interlock with decent results. I've been sticking with CCI Primers so far.

[Dufus]

I've never had an '06 that wouldn't shoot gnats asses with a 150gr and either of the 4895s. I use mostly the H4895.

I don't shoot 165gr (never have), but either of the 4350s, IMR or H, does well with the 180s, at least for me. Keep in mind that load data is different between the IMRs and the Hs.

I started using H4895 back in 1963 with 150s and have never needed anything else.

I might mention that I had 5 different rifles chambered '06 and all but one shot 10 shots in under 1" @ 100 yds. The one that didn't was a 700BDL. I sold it prolly 20 years ago.

[HiBC]

If I was handloading 180's for hunting purposes,I'd probably choose a slower powder such as 4350.

I don't doubt you are seeing what you are seeing...I'm not questioning it,but it surprises me that a sound,modern Rem700 without bore damage in 30-06 won't shoot 6 inches at 100 yds with 180 gr bullets. I'd be surprised at worse than
2 1/2 MOA at 100 yds.

A large percentage of milsurps with original barrels will beat 3 MOA.

I might try a thorough cleaning with Bore Tech I might re-torque the guard screws.
You are resting the rifle on the stock forend,with nothing touching the barrel? You don't have a sling swivel screw contacting the barrel?
IMO,there almost has to be something silly going on.

I certainly accept the barrel harmonics theories if we are trying to get from 3 MOA to 1 MOA,but there are shotguns that shoot slugs better than 6 MOA at 100 yds.
When I still had eyes,I could bench my 44 Magnum Ruger SBH 6 MOA at 100 yds on a decent day. With cast bullets!

I've seen original barreled fairly rough Rolling Blocks shoot inside 6 inches.

From the milsurps to the Rolling block I don't think the barrel harmonics are fine tuned.

[BushmanTahou]

I know it sounds silly...that's why I bought so amny different factory loads trying to find one that worked! That's shooting from a Harris bipod with a Leupold 3x9. Again, the 150s do very well out of the same gun. Can't say that I've ever tried 165s or 220s

[44 AMP]

Consider all options, and what you need, vs. what you want, and then consider what you might gain, and what you might lose.

Ok, simplest & easiest is to check other bullet weights and see how they do.

If you just have to get 180s to shoot better from your rifle, consider that any changes you make MIGHT cost you some of that "tack driving" ability with 150s.

Not saying it will happen, only that it could. All kinds of strange things happen with rifle barrels and ammo. Driving tacks with 150s but no better than 6" groups with 180s is an uncommon situation, lots of guns seriously prefer one bullet over others but that much difference is outside the norm.

Gun collector says, accept it for what it is, and get another 06 for 180s!
you can only have too many if you have to carry them all at once..

[Howland]

I've got a 700 BDL in .30-06. I got pulled for a moose permit some years ago and worked up a 3/4" load using 180 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips at 0.010" off the lands over IMR-4895. I don't recall the charge weight. I thought I would never forget but I loaded plenty and still have 5-10 hunting seasons left. I should have written it down.

[reinert]

IMR 4350, along with 180 grn. bullets, have long been an old standard mix for good hunting ammo in the '06 (IMO). I've never used it, but IMR 4064 is supposed to be good propellant, too. I use Hornady bullets exclusively in my three 30-06s, soft points only. Tried and true to fill the freezer.

[tango1niner]

I too am a fan of IMR 4350 for heavier bullets. I also like 165's for the '06. I don't believe you could go wrong with Nosler Partitions.

[T. O'Heir]

A Remington 700 BDL .30-06 rifling twist is 1 in 10. Not that it matters much. A 165 grain bullet will kill any game in North America. And the .30-06 loves 'em.
Partial to IMR4064 myself. It gives more consistent accuracy than either 4895. Even, or more like especially, out of an M1 Rifle.
IMR4895 with a 180 gives fairly slow velocities. 2,555 FPS to 2,680 FPS. That may be the issue. Even though the .30 M1 with its 174 grain BT bullet ammo, used for testing the M1 Rifle, ran at 2640 FPS. Easier to change bullets than wrestle with the 180s.

[Unclenick]

Keep in mind the M1 Ball ammunition and M1 Type match bullet had its loaded ammunition velocity measured at 78 feet from the muzzle. Based on the BRL's actual measured drag function for this bullet (and not just a ballistic coefficient), to be going 2640 fps at 78 feet from the muzzle, the actual muzzle velocity would be 2691 fps, and at 15 feet from the muzzle (SAAMI standard velocity measuring midpoint), it would be going 2685 fps. The 175 grain Sierra MatchKing is a very close ballistic match to the M1 Type, and, launched just 2 fps slower, will match the older bullet at 78 feet and be within 10 fps of it at 1000 yards, so it's a good choice for a substitute. The slightly wider meplat means it needs to be seated to about 3.290" COL to match the bullet jump of the M1 Type.

[RC20]

Well put me in the group that 180 with 6 inch at 100 is more AK-47 or an MN than a modern made rifle let alone one that shoots 150s really good.

One possibility is its got the really long lead in it, finding where the lands are and then a cross check to normal COAL for any bullet would give you an idea.

If its a harmonic its a wild one.

It should shoot almost an load 1.5" at that range.

[cdoc42]

I have two Remington 700 BDLs in .270, not a far cry from .30-06. One will not group well anything but a 150gr Hornady spire point, while the other does the same thing with a 140gr SST.

I've tried 130gr RemPSP, Hornady 130SST, and Barnes, Nosler, Speer and Sierra in virtually every weight from 100gr to 150gr.

When you start loading that 180 with attention to seating depth and various powders and charges, you might just find what you're looking for.

[cptjack]

4064 and 165 interlok. not a target load but very close,,interesting with 9 grs more of h4350 same point of impact and group ,so I load the 4064

[HiBC]

For a quick and easy experiment ,try cutting a strip of target paper and putting it between the barrel and the stock forend right behind the forend tip.

[std7mag]

I usually like Alliant Powders.
But for 06' i'm definitely in the IMR 4350 camp.

[HiBC]

The 30-06 cartridge is legitimately loaded to (at least) two standards.

One is about the M-1 Garand rifle. Powder with a burn rate and pressure curve similar to 4895 is needed to work with (not damage) the Garand gas system.

Certainly,fine,accurate 30-06 ammo can be made with powders such as 4895.

And this performance level is quite suitable for hunting.

There are a lot of folks who make a reasonable choice to use the 4895 type loads that served the military and the Garand just fine for over approximately 100 years. It works.It works for hunting with a bolt gun just fine.

But in a bolt action rifle that will not be harmed by higher gas pressure at the muzzle, higher velocity along with excellent accuracy can be achieved with a powder of slower 4350 burn rate. Safely.

Neither one is wrong. Take good care of a Garand by feeding it proper ammo.

Other than that,use what you prefer.

[Don Fischer]

I believe that H4895 was originally Mil surplus powder, it and H 4831. That's what Hodgdon got it's start in the powder business with. I haven't loaded for 30-06 all that much but the one I have likes IMR 4064 and a 180gr Hornady SP. Not sure why as I think the stuff is a bit to fast for the 30-06 but what works, works. I'd also suggest trying one of the 4350's H or IMR. That stuff just seem's to work in whatever it's used in.

My 30-06 shoot's just over 1" group's with that 180 gr bullet, more than good enough for hunting load. In hunting loads I always try to find the most accurate load but will sacrifice a bit of accuracy for velocity. I cannot see loading down to some other cartridge level for a hunting load, just get the lesser cartridge.

Some rifle's simply don't like certain bullet weight's or styles. Try different styles and weight's. I'd say take a good look at bedding but if the bedding was bad, I doubt the 150's would shoot so well! Yet there might be something there so you might check bedding.

In the end though, first thing I'd try is slower powder like H or IMR 4350. Not sure what powder's are around anymore, I tend to use older powder's more than newer. A powder I've had good luck with in everything I've used it in is H414. Lot of people say it's the same as W760 but I find different load date for it and have never tried swapping it. W760 was/is Winchester's slow burning powder, is it still around? Something I look for loading is a powder that fill's to about 90% case capacity or there about judging by eye. But I avoid compressed load all the time. Generally a powder to fast won't fill the case very well and to slow will cause compressed loads. That said, my load of 4064 doesn't really fill the case that well! But it does work. Success is where you find it, never argue with it.

[Unclenick]

BushmanTahou,

I keep thinking about how big your groups are and agree it is hard to explain by barrel deflection. I am thinking perhaps the one important difference from your 150-grain loads is simply the greater level of recoil. Several things can happen when recoil increases from causing the scope to shift, if it isn't quite in top shape, or causing the mounts to slip or causing bedding to slip or pulling the receiver away from the stock or pushing uneven bolt lugs toward contact. It may be worth pulling the gun from the stock and looking for rub marks from stock contact. You can mark the bolt lug rear surfaces with a Magic Marker or match smoke and close and open the bolt to see if it scrapes off evenly from both.

At the range, you can try resting the underside of the magazine well on your bags instead of the fore end of the stock, as that tends to reduce contact and stock flapping.

The paper suggestion made by HiBC is worth a try. Another approach is to take narrow strips of cardboard off a tablet (paper match sticks work), bag the gun with the front bag under the magazine well and hang about 10-20 lbs (two full gallon jugs of water works) off the sling-swivel to flex the stock down, and jam the cardboard between the stock and barrel on opposite sides, and then release the weights. That causes compression. Shoot a few rounds and put the weight back on and move the cardboard a quarter inch and try again. Start at the front and keep moving back until the barrel is tuned. Once you find that spot you can coat the barrel over that location with Johnson's Paste Wax and saturate the cardboard with epoxy and put the two back together. This is sometimes called O'Conner bedding. It can tune rifles nicely.

There is also an adjustable barrel tuning support you can get called a Smart Stock you can have put on the rifle.

You can also take the rifle to a gunsmith to go over all the previously mentioned things for you, bed the receiver properly, if it isn't bedded now, blueprint the receiver or lap your bolt lugs if either of those operations are needed.

[RC20]

Sticking with the 150 would work just fine.

Purely strange is the reaction with 180.

Not sure best left alone, tweaks might have both shooting badly then you really have to find out whats going on.

[BushmanTahou]

Thanks everyone for the tremendous response! Yeah, I find myself doubting the thing is really as bad as I remember...I'll probably work up a few loads with 180gr partitions and 168gr ttsx bullets (think I'd feel comfortable with a lighter bullet in solid copper for the big stuff) over a few different powders and see how I make out. Not chasing any big game this season, so I'll be content with the 150 partitions. I'm a two rifle guy at the moment as far as hunting is concerned. The next step will be cooking up a tsx round I can make shoot in my mini-14 for Coyotes! But half the fun of reloading is finding what doesn't work. Gives you more excuse for range time!