Guns got safer..

C7AR15 · August 5, 2017, 02:00 PM

I know that old revolvers had the firing pin resting on the primer and other handguns could fire if dropped.

So when did things change? When did guns become safer with hammer the hammer system. Who were the real innovators ?

I'm interested in both revolvers and semiautomatic guns.

JD

**Aguila Blanca** · August 5, 2017, 04:54 PM

Colt first introduced the Swartz firing pin system on the 1911 in the 1930s. It was never adopted by the military. Colt stopped using it during WW2, when most production was military, and they never started using it again after WW2. They introduced the so-called Series 80 firing pin safety in the 1980s.

Carmady · August 5, 2017, 07:27 PM

Look up Iver Johnson "Hammer the hammer"

**JohnKSa** · August 5, 2017, 07:42 PM

Yup, Iver Johnson was one of the first. Their system came out in the mid 1890s.

UncleEd · August 5, 2017, 08:35 PM

A certain regular poster will be along with pictures and lots of explanations.

Bill DeShivs · August 5, 2017, 09:37 PM

Few handguns ever let the hammer/firing pin rest on a live round.
Most had half-cock notches to keep the firing pin from resting on the cartridge.

arquebus357 · August 7, 2017, 11:49 AM

Hardly ever mentioned is the "inertia firing pin" safety. The firing pin is actually too short to set off the primer so the hammer can rest on it wirh no danger. The hammer must go through it's entire stroke to strike the firing pin with enough force to create enough inertia for setting off the primer. I'm not an expert and I only know my Spanish Star BM has this system. Seems to work flawlessly.

vba · August 7, 2017, 12:37 PM

Some "modern" guns like the P320 aren't safer, they fired when dropped

JoeSixpack · August 7, 2017, 12:39 PM

Im not sure exactly when it became main stream as it predates me a bit.
But I'd say around the 80's I think it become a big design point on nearly everything.

The 2nd oldest gun I have is my fathers High-Standard sentinel 22lr revolver.
Near as I can tell it was made either late 50's or early 60's

It has a hammer block.. a bar that moves out of position so the hammer can drop fully.
Im not really sure what happen to high-standard.. I guess they went out of business but the example I have is one of the finest revolvers I've ever laid my hands on.

I do not know the round count but the finish is nearly non existent, no rust, everything is right and tight, lock up is like a vice, gap barely has any daylight.

Better then 90% of the NIB revolvers I've seen these days.
I don't know how a company could produce a gun like that (assuming this is not an exceptional piece) and go out of business.

Since it was my fathers I don't shoot it that much. If I ever see a good price on one though Im picking up another for sure.

Carmady · August 7, 2017, 12:54 PM

Quote:

The 2nd oldest gun I have is my fathers High-Standard sentinel 22lr revolver.

You might like this.

http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/Sentinel/sentinel.html

JoeSixpack · August 7, 2017, 01:04 PM

Hmm ya I have the R-101 so that would place it between 56-61
So this was suppose to be a low cost revolver, funny I'd never have guessed holding it.
Look at the MSRP.. 37.50.. daaaaammmn lol

Carmady · August 7, 2017, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Look at the MSRP.. 37.50.. daaaaammmn lol

Do you know how many gallons of gas you could get for $37.50 in the late '50s?

Manly gas, like "SUNOCO 260 ACTION."

James K · August 7, 2017, 10:18 PM

Most single actions had a safety notch in the hammer, but it was not strong enough to keep the gun from firing if dropped on the hammer, so many folks didn't depend on it and carried the gun with an empty chamber or a fired cartridge under the hammer. When double action came along, the ones with side swing cylinders had a rebounding hammer that was pulled back from the primer so the cylinder could be swung out. It was soon realized that the rebound mechanism itself was not strong enough to prevent firing if the gun was dropped on the hammer, so the rebounding hammer was combined with a mechanism that either blocked the hammer so it cold not move forward even if struck, or another part filled a gap to transfer energy.

One of the first, and still one of the best, was the IJ system which uses a hammer that cannot reach the frame-mounted firing pin unless a part, called the transfer bar, is imposed between them to transfer the energy from the hammer to the firing pin. Ruger uses that system, but S&W and Colt use a hammer block that is moved out of the way of the hammer when the trigger is pulled.

Jim

P.S. In 1960 or thereabouts, gas was as low as $.17 a gallon for regular, $.21 for high test. That was high; the fixed price during WWII was $.09 a gallon for regular; high test was generally not available, almost all supplies going to fuel aircraft, but then few automobile engines needed it..

JK

August 5, 2017, 02:00 PM	#1
C7AR15 Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2011 Location: Burnaby Posts: 260	Guns got safer.. I know that old revolvers had the firing pin resting on the primer and other handguns could fire if dropped. So when did things change? When did guns become safer with hammer the hammer system. Who were the real innovators ? I'm interested in both revolvers and semiautomatic guns. JD

August 5, 2017, 07:42 PM	#4
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,972	Yup, Iver Johnson was one of the first. Their system came out in the mid 1890s. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

August 5, 2017, 09:37 PM	#6
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,981	Few handguns ever let the hammer/firing pin rest on a live round. Most had half-cock notches to keep the firing pin from resting on the cartridge. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

August 5, 2017, 04:54 PM	#2
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,459	Colt first introduced the Swartz firing pin system on the 1911 in the 1930s. It was never adopted by the military. Colt stopped using it during WW2, when most production was military, and they never started using it again after WW2. They introduced the so-called Series 80 firing pin safety in the 1980s.

August 5, 2017, 07:27 PM	#3
Carmady Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2013 Location: on the lam Posts: 1,735	Look up Iver Johnson "Hammer the hammer"

August 5, 2017, 08:35 PM	#5
UncleEd Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2013 Location: N. Georgia Posts: 1,150	A certain regular poster will be along with pictures and lots of explanations.

August 7, 2017, 11:49 AM	#7
arquebus357 Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2016 Location: Atlanta, Georgia area Posts: 455	Hardly ever mentioned is the "inertia firing pin" safety. The firing pin is actually too short to set off the primer so the hammer can rest on it wirh no danger. The hammer must go through it's entire stroke to strike the firing pin with enough force to create enough inertia for setting off the primer. I'm not an expert and I only know my Spanish Star BM has this system. Seems to work flawlessly.

August 7, 2017, 12:37 PM	#8
vba Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2008 Posts: 357	Some "modern" guns like the P320 aren't safer, they fired when dropped

August 7, 2017, 12:39 PM	#9
JoeSixpack Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2017 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,048	Im not sure exactly when it became main stream as it predates me a bit. But I'd say around the 80's I think it become a big design point on nearly everything. The 2nd oldest gun I have is my fathers High-Standard sentinel 22lr revolver. Near as I can tell it was made either late 50's or early 60's It has a hammer block.. a bar that moves out of position so the hammer can drop fully. Im not really sure what happen to high-standard.. I guess they went out of business but the example I have is one of the finest revolvers I've ever laid my hands on. I do not know the round count but the finish is nearly non existent, no rust, everything is right and tight, lock up is like a vice, gap barely has any daylight. Better then 90% of the NIB revolvers I've seen these days. I don't know how a company could produce a gun like that (assuming this is not an exceptional piece) and go out of business. Since it was my fathers I don't shoot it that much. If I ever see a good price on one though Im picking up another for sure.

August 7, 2017, 01:04 PM	#11
JoeSixpack Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2017 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,048	Hmm ya I have the R-101 so that would place it between 56-61 So this was suppose to be a low cost revolver, funny I'd never have guessed holding it. Look at the MSRP.. 37.50.. daaaaammmn lol

August 7, 2017, 10:18 PM	#13
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Most single actions had a safety notch in the hammer, but it was not strong enough to keep the gun from firing if dropped on the hammer, so many folks didn't depend on it and carried the gun with an empty chamber or a fired cartridge under the hammer. When double action came along, the ones with side swing cylinders had a rebounding hammer that was pulled back from the primer so the cylinder could be swung out. It was soon realized that the rebound mechanism itself was not strong enough to prevent firing if the gun was dropped on the hammer, so the rebounding hammer was combined with a mechanism that either blocked the hammer so it cold not move forward even if struck, or another part filled a gap to transfer energy. One of the first, and still one of the best, was the IJ system which uses a hammer that cannot reach the frame-mounted firing pin unless a part, called the transfer bar, is imposed between them to transfer the energy from the hammer to the firing pin. Ruger uses that system, but S&W and Colt use a hammer block that is moved out of the way of the hammer when the trigger is pulled. Jim P.S. In 1960 or thereabouts, gas was as low as $.17 a gallon for regular, $.21 for high test. That was high; the fixed price during WWII was $.09 a gallon for regular; high test was generally not available, almost all supplies going to fuel aircraft, but then few automobile engines needed it.. JK