Need help with powder - Page 2

Ken - Oh · February 23, 2011, 07:52 AM

Shoney,

I wouldn't call it a "myth", it's real.

Yes, it has happened more in Glocks than in other guns and Glock has taken steps to reduce the issue.

In my case, however, it was a new Sig P226 (about 300 rounds through it) and was FMJ.

There have also been documented 40SW Kabooms using factory ammo. There is more documentation on "The Gun Zone".

AFAIK, ALL firearms manufactures warn against using reloads. I have yet to see a manual that did not.

I believe 40SW is more susceptible because of several factors. Extra caution is advised IMO. However, many people successfully reload without problems.

Ken

abber · February 23, 2011, 11:04 AM

I have loaded thousands of .40SW. No problems so far. I am very careful with everything I load, which includes 15 different calibers. DUE DILIGENCE. That is the key. No need to fear loading for anything.

Shoney · February 23, 2011, 06:39 PM

Who wrote "You can't legislate against stupidity."?

wover98 · February 23, 2011, 09:08 PM

"Who wrote "You can't legislate against stupidity."?"

That would be Jesse (The Body) Ventura

wover98 · February 23, 2011, 09:12 PM

Another question if I may, while looking up these bullets and powders and looking around to buy said ingredeints, I can find no loads for say...165gr JHP from Montana gold. Do I pick a close one like the 165gr GDHP and then reduce the charge by some amount and work up to where I show signs of pressure problems then back off? If so, how much should I drop from the min load to be safe? Its a .40 S&W and I understand its a bit tricky to load safely.
Thanks again for all the help, this is going to be a fun place to camp.

Will

Ken - Oh · February 23, 2011, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Another question if I may, while looking up these bullets and powders and looking around to buy said ingredeints, I can find no loads for say...165gr JHP from Montana gold. Do I pick a close one like the 165gr GDHP and then reduce the charge by some amount and work up to where I show signs of pressure problems then back off? If so, how much should I drop from the min load to be safe? Its a .40 S&W and I understand its a bit tricky to load safely.
Thanks again for all the help, this is going to be a fun place to camp.

Will,

the "right" way is to find out the height of the Montana Gold bullet and the height of the GDHP and adjust the seating depth appropriately. If your bullet is .02" shorter than the GD, then your COL should be .02" less. Then start out at the minimum load and work up some. There is no "carved in stone" rule that you have to load to max or until you reach pressure signs.

Rarely, if eve,r do I load anything to max. Closest that I came was for my 44 mag 300 gr deer load and even then I kept a couple tenths of a grain off of the listed max.

To be honest, I can spend a lot of time comparing loads in different manuals trying to find something appropriate for a new bullet. A lot of load manuals and especially the free booklets do not give the COL that they load at, just the max COL for the cartridge. Of course you don't want to load at max COL, you could have feed issues in some guns. As you go shorter, pressures go up.

There was a project on another board where they were trying to report the dimensions of many various .45 bullets. Last I saw, the thread was many pages long.

Ken

wover98 · February 23, 2011, 09:37 PM

Ok, thanks again. I was thinking that I want to adjust up just a bit and check how the bullet patterns and if grouping better and better, keep going and watch for pressure signs. but if not, go other way. I will have to check the length of the bullets.... Think I read that somewhere and its just sliped my mind.

Thanks agin
Will

abber · February 24, 2011, 09:57 AM

Quote:

There is no "carved in stone" rule that you have to load to max or until you reach pressure signs.

Absolutely true. I started my 155 grain Rainier plated bullets at 6.5 grains of Universal. I worked that down to 6.0, then 5.5, then 5.0. All felt very good, and no pressure signs, but I was just looking for a plinker. At 5.0 grains, however, my slide occasionally failed to lock open on the last round. This was about 3 out of 10 mags, and no FTF's, so I settled on 5.5 grains for this particular round. I have shot probably 2000 of these, and they are wonderful. If you would like, I will double check my loading log, and give all the specs for this one. I don't want to try to post from memory.

wover98 · February 24, 2011, 12:06 PM

Thanks, that would be good to know. I am starting a spreadsheet to keep track of all my loads and those folks have tossed my way, so I can have a good refference of loads that MAY not be in the manuals.

abber · February 24, 2011, 12:45 PM

Will post that later today.

noylj · February 24, 2011, 09:44 PM

COL has everything to do with your gun and much less to do with bullet length or whatever.
For a JHP, look for JHP data. The GD is probably close, but it is thick copper-plated bullet and not a gilding-metal jacket.
The loads in the manuals are for the referenced COL and longer. If you go shorter, you will be increasing the pressure.
Load an inert round (no powder or primer), seat the bullet long, and just barely remove any case mouth flare/bell so the round will chamber.
Mark the case and bullet with a Magic Marker. When you drop the round in your barrel, you can twist the round back-and-forth and the scrape will tell you if the bullet is seated too long or if the case mouth is still too large. If bullet is seated too long, seat it a bit deeper and check until the round just drops in the barrel without the jacketed bullet contacting the rifling.
Now, see if it fits your magazine and whether if feeds and chambers from the mag to the gun's chamber. When it does, that is the COL you should use for you gun.
You ALWAYS start out at the starting load or you drop the load by 10% and start there.
Nobody can measure a bullet and determine the COL that is best for your chamber and gun.

Ken - Oh · February 25, 2011, 06:56 AM

Quote:

COL has everything to do with your gun and much less to do with bullet length or whatever.
For a JHP, look for JHP data. The GD is probably close, but it is thick copper-plated bullet and not a gilding-metal jacket.
The loads in the manuals are for the referenced COL and longer. If you go shorter, you will be increasing the pressure.

That is a very dangerous statement.

You are right, COL is important for your particular gun. One obviously needs something that will chamber right.

As you say, deeper seating will increase the pressure. One needs to satisfy both what chambers in the gun as well as staying within safe pressure ranges.

"Similar" bullets can have significantly different bullet heights. What matters as regards to pressure is where the base of the bullet is in the cartridge. This is more critical in some high pressure rounds with limited case space (e.g. 40SW) than in more mildly loaded cartridges with more case space (45ACP). It probably has the least effect on the revolver cartridges such as 357 and 44mag where there is plenty of case space.

I have seen some claims where a 180gr 40SW bullet can raise the pressure from the normal 36-38K to 70K with only a small change in bullet depth.

The Gold Dot is a fatter cannula bullet. Using load data for GD for a different, more pointed but longer JHP round could significantly change the pressure.

Ken

abber · February 25, 2011, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Will post that later today.

Sorry, I got busy (went to the range) and forgot. I'll get to it.

February 23, 2011, 07:52 AM	#26
Ken - Oh Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2006 Posts: 280	Shoney, I wouldn't call it a "myth", it's real. Yes, it has happened more in Glocks than in other guns and Glock has taken steps to reduce the issue. In my case, however, it was a new Sig P226 (about 300 rounds through it) and was FMJ. There have also been documented 40SW Kabooms using factory ammo. There is more documentation on "The Gun Zone". AFAIK, ALL firearms manufactures warn against using reloads. I have yet to see a manual that did not. I believe 40SW is more susceptible because of several factors. Extra caution is advised IMO. However, many people successfully reload without problems. Ken __________________ "The more law-abiding people that have guns, the better off we are," Hamilton County [Cincinnati] Prosecutor Joe Deters said. "Because the bad guys always have guns, You look at these school shootings or church shootings, the ones that have been stopped, it was because someone there had a gun."

February 23, 2011, 11:04 AM	#27
abber Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2008 Location: PRK Posts: 735	I have loaded thousands of .40SW. No problems so far. I am very careful with everything I load, which includes 15 different calibers. DUE DILIGENCE. That is the key. No need to fear loading for anything. __________________ I ain't got no safe queens. I shoots em all...

February 23, 2011, 06:39 PM	#28
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	Who wrote "You can't legislate against stupidity."? __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111

February 24, 2011, 12:45 PM	#35
abber Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2008 Location: PRK Posts: 735	Will post that later today. __________________ I ain't got no safe queens. I shoots em all...

February 24, 2011, 09:44 PM	#36
noylj Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: Between CA and NM Posts: 858	What is so hard about COL? COL has everything to do with your gun and much less to do with bullet length or whatever. For a JHP, look for JHP data. The GD is probably close, but it is thick copper-plated bullet and not a gilding-metal jacket. The loads in the manuals are for the referenced COL and longer. If you go shorter, you will be increasing the pressure. Load an inert round (no powder or primer), seat the bullet long, and just barely remove any case mouth flare/bell so the round will chamber. Mark the case and bullet with a Magic Marker. When you drop the round in your barrel, you can twist the round back-and-forth and the scrape will tell you if the bullet is seated too long or if the case mouth is still too large. If bullet is seated too long, seat it a bit deeper and check until the round just drops in the barrel without the jacketed bullet contacting the rifling. Now, see if it fits your magazine and whether if feeds and chambers from the mag to the gun's chamber. When it does, that is the COL you should use for you gun. You ALWAYS start out at the starting load or you drop the load by 10% and start there. Nobody can measure a bullet and determine the COL that is best for your chamber and gun.

February 23, 2011, 09:08 PM	#29
wover98 Member Join Date: March 4, 2009 Posts: 44	"Who wrote "You can't legislate against stupidity."?" That would be Jesse (The Body) Ventura

February 23, 2011, 09:12 PM	#30
wover98 Member Join Date: March 4, 2009 Posts: 44	Another question if I may, while looking up these bullets and powders and looking around to buy said ingredeints, I can find no loads for say...165gr JHP from Montana gold. Do I pick a close one like the 165gr GDHP and then reduce the charge by some amount and work up to where I show signs of pressure problems then back off? If so, how much should I drop from the min load to be safe? Its a .40 S&W and I understand its a bit tricky to load safely. Thanks again for all the help, this is going to be a fun place to camp. Will

February 23, 2011, 09:37 PM	#32
wover98 Member Join Date: March 4, 2009 Posts: 44	Ok, thanks again. I was thinking that I want to adjust up just a bit and check how the bullet patterns and if grouping better and better, keep going and watch for pressure signs. but if not, go other way. I will have to check the length of the bullets.... Think I read that somewhere and its just sliped my mind. Thanks agin Will

February 24, 2011, 12:06 PM	#34
wover98 Member Join Date: March 4, 2009 Posts: 44	Thanks, that would be good to know. I am starting a spreadsheet to keep track of all my loads and those folks have tossed my way, so I can have a good refference of loads that MAY not be in the manuals.