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Old February 16, 2010, 11:33 AM   #26
AcridSaint
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Pulling out a lethal weapon is never a de-escalation attempt in my eyes and it's foolish to rely on the mere presence of a lethal weapon to de-escalate the situation. I want every second or fraction of a second I can get my hands on when I have to react to a violent situation, so I do hope that I get that time to "reflect".
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Old February 16, 2010, 11:38 AM   #27
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Pulling out a lethal weapon is never a de-escalation attempt in my eyes and it's foolish to rely on the mere presence of a lethal weapon to de-escalate the situation. I want every second or fraction of a second I can get my hands on when I have to react to a violent situation, so I do hope that I get that time to "reflect".
Do you know how I know you've never been on the wrong end of a gun?
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Old February 16, 2010, 11:40 AM   #28
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I guess he hasn't met a lot of Israelis - they have mastered this technique of not carrying a round chambered. I can personally tell you that for those that have mastered this way of carrying they can draw, chamber and shoot faster than most in the US can draw.
Looks like the guy in this video hadn't quite "mastered" the skill. He did get shot before he drew his weapon, which may have hindered his ability to properly work the slide. It's sad to watch him crumble to the ground as he realizes his gun is hopelessly jammed. To add insult to [fatal] injury, the bad guy steals the gun right out of his hands.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=086_1260862712

Regardless, Farnam's opinion is extremist.
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Old February 16, 2010, 11:41 AM   #29
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I fail to see why de-escalation can only be accomplished while carrying a chamber empty gun.

In fact, I fail to see any correlation whatsoever.
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Old February 16, 2010, 11:42 AM   #30
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Better to have an unchambered gun than no gun at all!
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Old February 16, 2010, 11:43 AM   #31
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While I do not condone unchambered carry (having carried nothing but loaded Glocks and cocked and locked 1911s and HK USPs), I would not want to share a table with someone that gets that worked up over someone else's mode of carry. Farnham needs a chill pill, stat.
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Old February 16, 2010, 11:55 AM   #32
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I guess he hasn't met a lot of Israelis - they have mastered this technique of not carrying a round chambered. I can personally tell you that for those that have mastered this way of carrying they can draw, chamber and shoot faster than most in the US can draw.
The guy in the vid isn't fast. Added steps will ALWAYS slow you down.

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Do you know how I know you've never been on the wrong end of a gun?
Was it his lack of a thousand yard stare?
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Old February 16, 2010, 11:56 AM   #33
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And he could tell all that about a man just by how he chambers his sidearm?

Huh.

I guess he thinks the skilled men who can draw, chamber a round, and fire before he has his firearm out of its holster that he's a better man than them and more skilled.

Must be hard to see the computer screen all the way up there on that horse...
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Old February 16, 2010, 12:00 PM   #34
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Do you know how I know you've never been on the wrong end of a gun?
You don't
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Old February 16, 2010, 12:39 PM   #35
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I guess he hasn't met a lot of Israelis - they have mastered this technique of not carrying a round chambered. I can personally tell you that for those that have mastered this way of carrying they can draw, chamber and shoot faster than most in the US can draw.
How many people do you know personally that have mastered the technique? I know no one that has. How about some of the members chiming in here if they know any mastering this choice of carry.
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Old February 16, 2010, 12:45 PM   #36
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Even though I'm all against an empty chamber I'd still say Farnham is rude.

Empty chamber is the going here in Pakistan as well. It is probably because reliable & quality firearms did'nt make it to the country until recently (5-10 years) and ownership is limited to a certain income group as the prices are usually 300-500% more than what you guys pay in the US.

Tokarevs are the most common & inexpensive (priced at $100-$400 USD) handguns that are available here and have proven to be very unreliable and could easily discharge from a bump or an accidental fall. 99.9% of the Toks that we get dont even have externel safties let alone internal.

Moreover, socializing with your autoloader cocked is usually considered offensive and would make your peers uncomfortable. Even the LE & military practice & mandates empty chamber carry as a safety pre requisite so if you're stopped at a police checkpoint & a weapon is recovered with one in the chamber you're surely going to raise some eye brows.

Its a cultural thing in some ethnic groups to have rugs in the guest rooms instead of furniture so people usually unpack what their packing and put them under a leg or something...another reason why people dont carry cocked as there could be children or just another idiot intrigued with a weapon who might poke into your weapon while you're not paying attention. Also clearing a weapon before you enter somebodys house or in front of people (racking slide etc) would also be considered offensive.

Weapon safety is psychotically hammered so much by the elders that Ive even seen some carrying a revolver with 5 rounds instead of six.
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Old February 16, 2010, 12:46 PM   #37
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** Civility Warning **

This subject seems to pop up every now and then, but for the life of me, I can't understand why it always deteriorates into a morass of incivility.

I'm giving this one a chance to see if it can remain civil and mature, but it already appears to be headed into a death spiral.

Keep it civil folks. Whether or not this remains open is entirely up to you.
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Old February 16, 2010, 12:48 PM   #38
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I don't know about the Israelis, but I've been with the US military in a combat zone where the standard was empty chamber carry. However it wasn't because it gave any kind of tactical advantage; it was because in any group of soldiers there is always one (sometimes more than one) idiot. It's hard to tell how many negligent discharges were prevented by this policy, but seeing as a few people STILL managed to pull it off, I'd imagine it prevented quite a few.

When you perform every single daily activity with your weapon equipped, the hyper-safe mentality of the first few weeks diminishes as the months drag on. I think the same phenomenon occurs with CC. You have to develop sefety habits to a point where you no longer have to think about it, because eventually you won't anymore. Most of us were diciplined and could probably have carried condition one 100% of the time and had no issues, but not all. If you feel you need to carry with an empty chamber to prevent yourself from having an accident, you should probably reconsider carrying.

On the other hand, if safe gun handling IS second-nature to you and you just want to carry with an empty chamber to be extra, extra, extra safe I think that's better than not carrying at all. A bit paranoid IMO, but I've been called paranoid just for carrying in the first place so I really can't say anything to ya!
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Old February 16, 2010, 12:54 PM   #39
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P.s. I've practiced & kind of mastered to rack the slide while I draw. Ive timed myself and can draw, load & land an accurate shot in less than second. At the same time it takes longer for me to draw, shoot a decocked pistol in DA mode. Also I'm comparatively less accurate when quick drawing & shooting a handgun in DA mode.
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Old February 16, 2010, 12:59 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordofWar
...Ive timed myself and can draw, load & land an accurate shot in less than second....
But the point is that it takes you two hands to do it. I'm not willing to count on having both hands available in an emergency.
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Old February 16, 2010, 01:08 PM   #41
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But the point is that it takes you two hands to do it. I'm not willing to count on having both hands available in an emergency.
... and shooting a gun effectively requires the use of one good hand: How are you going to guarantee that? See how that works
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Old February 16, 2010, 01:09 PM   #42
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How did this fellow Farnham get elected to his office anway? I have no objections to chamber loaded carry, including cocked and locked on your modern pistol designed in 1911. But I have objections and so should anyone else about being dictated to on the subject. Don't care to carry a pistol with a chambered round, then one isn't fit to carry a handgun? Well, that's certainly conservative, isn't it.

I wonder what he thinks of other drivers?
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Old February 16, 2010, 01:16 PM   #43
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w_houle
... and shooting a gun effectively requires the use of one good hand: How are you going to guarantee that? See how that works
That argument simply doesn't work. Having no hands is not an advantage to the guy with an empty chamber. Having two arms works for both, having one arm works (much better) for a loaded chamber and having no arms works for no one.

That's two situations that work for the loaded chamber guy and one that works for the chamber empty guy and one that works for no one.

Advantage: loaded chamber.
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Old February 16, 2010, 01:21 PM   #44
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But the point is that it takes you two hands to do it. I'm not willing to count on having both hands available in an emergency.
And what guarantee do you have that you'e shooting hand would be workable in an emergency?
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Old February 16, 2010, 01:26 PM   #45
LordofWar
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However we may advocate carrying one on the chamber the fact remains there WILL BE negligent discharges and subsequent casualties esp when one is new to carrying.

Casualties from negligent/accidental discharges are far more than casualties resulting from that marginal second that you wasted chambering your weapon.
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Old February 16, 2010, 01:32 PM   #46
AcridSaint
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I only require a hand in an emergency, not both hands or a specific hand. I work every week at shooting with my off hand for just that situation.

Again, I can't see why someone would make that choice with modern pistols. If you're stuck in a bad situation in Pakistan then your circumstances dictate that you use a different method of carry, but I don't see how that would translate into folks who have reliable handguns available to them.
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Old February 16, 2010, 01:33 PM   #47
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However we may advocate carrying one on the chamber the fact remains there WILL BE negligent discharges and subsequent casualties esp when one is new to carrying.
That's simply not true.

I am an inexperienced handgun owner. I carry a Glock with one in the chamber. I keep the gun holster at all times except when I get undressed for bed. At that time, the gun is drawn from the holster, with my finger off the trigger and out of the trigger guard, and placed in a quick access safe. The entire rest of every single day the gun lives in a holster that is made for the gun, holds it securely and covers the trigger guard. When I draw from the holster for ANY reason I do not *ever* place my finger on the trigger or inside the trigger guard except when I have made up my mind to make some noise.

Negligent discharges come from NEGLIGENCE not from loaded guns. As a matter of fact, how often do you hear about accidents with "unloaded" guns? Happens all the time. Personally, I think carrying an unloaded gun is MORE likely to create negligent discharges, due to complacency. "What? No biggie... It's unloaded..I never chamber a round...."
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Old February 16, 2010, 01:34 PM   #48
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Harsh, but true?

First off, the guy carried in a holster into the range. The article said so. So where exactly did the box come from that he (Farnham) packed it back up in? Hmmm.

Second, his harsh words were opinion - clearly stated as such - and were not said directly to the "acquaintance". On the whole i found it a bit strong, and it certainy doesn't speak for me. However, the only real advice he gave to the guy was very good advice - i've seen it on these forums hundreds of time - get professional training.

Now if he'd railed on the guy in person, all the derision from his pages pouring out as he packed up the guy's pistol, my guess is he wouldn't have to worry about inviting the guy to dinner - he'll never see him again because he won't ever be back to that range again! Agreed - this was an opportunity to teach, and it sounds like Farnham missed that opportunity and went over the top. This type of sales approach certainly wouldn't retain customers. I tend to wonder how much embellishment is incorporated into the story...

In these days of increasing gun sales and popularity, coupled with increased pressure from the anti's and the elected, it strikes me that we need to encourage, teach, and support fellow shooters, especially newbies. We have the opportunity to get them started the right way, make our friends a little safer, while doing so for the entire community as well.

Me, i like one chambered but the safety/decocker on. A flick of the thumb and i'm shooting. Wonder what he'd say about me?
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Old February 16, 2010, 01:54 PM   #49
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peetzakilla,

You are mature & careful but not everyone is.

I've been around weapons since I was a child as they're as they're more of a traditional thing in the family but truth be told it took me some time to get used to a round in the chamber. I became ultra cautious and it felt like a psychological burden in the beginning. I became so paranoid that I had a PostIt stuck on the gun, CHAMBERED written with a red marker (Not Kidding here). Maybe it was because my elders had hammered those safety procedures since the day I received my first gun and those safety procedures said 'Never load a gun unless you intend on using it'. (well an obsolete SOP in this era)

But I still discourage a newbie to carry one in the pipe until he's proficient with standard safety procedures of his weapon and that comes with range time and spending time with your weapon. Once you've developed that comfort level with your weapon it becomes second nature.

Carrying a chambered weapon from your first day - BAD IDEA.

Well there are pros & cons of both cocked & empty chamber. An equilibrium point to this debate could probably be established by alternating between modes with respect to your surroundings but again there will still be a provision for OUT OF THE BLUE scenarios which is when personal preferences come into play.
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Old February 16, 2010, 02:40 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w_houle
... and shooting a gun effectively requires the use of one good hand: How are you going to guarantee that?...
Can't guaranteed anything, but I increase my chances if I can manage my gun effectively with one hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordofWar
...And what guarantee do you have that you'e shooting hand would be workable in an emergency?...
Either of my hands is my shooting hand. That's one of the benefits of training and practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordofWar
...However we may advocate carrying one on the chamber the fact remains there WILL BE negligent discharges and subsequent casualties esp when one is new to carrying...
And that's a training issue. Indeed, I find it very disconcerting that so many gun owners are willing to carry a gun in public but are unwilling to invest the effort, time and money to get decently trained and to practice properly and regularly. But that's another subject.

In any case, all of the major schools and best known instructors teach carrying a round chambered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordofWar
...those safety procedures said 'Never load a gun unless you intend on using it'. (well an obsolete SOP in this era)...
The NRA rule is "Always keep the gun unloaded until ready for use." And as an NRA certified instructor for, among other things, Personal Protection in the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home, we teach that when a gun is carried for self defense it is being used for that purpose and is to be loaded.
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