The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 16, 2020, 12:24 PM   #26
jetinteriorguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2013
Posts: 1,330
If you do decide to send it back RIA has excellent service. I bought a used 9mm/.22TCM combo and had issues with the 22TCM barrel. I contacted them and an hour later they emailed me a return tag. I boxed it up, put the tag on and sent it in. Less than two weeks later I received it back, a new barrel and a tune up and it’s flawless. As accurate as I can shoot any handgun and a ton of fun.
jetinteriorguy is offline  
Old June 16, 2020, 12:26 PM   #27
Steve in Allentown,
Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Posts: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoc View Post
We don't know that nosediving is the source of the problem or the result of the problem. The op does not describe that.
Interesting. Nor does he specifically state that the factory mag functions correctly if it is downloaded by one. We may all be suffering from making assumptions. The OP is going to have to provide answers to some simple questions if we're to correctly diagnose the cause of the feeding malfunction.
Steve in Allentown, is offline  
Old June 17, 2020, 03:54 AM   #28
dmattaponi
Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2018
Posts: 22
I agree with many of the others...quit fiddling with the gun, properly clean, lube and go live fire the gun. Whole different set of dynamics.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
dmattaponi is offline  
Old June 17, 2020, 09:04 AM   #29
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 14,171
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmattaponi
I agree with many of the others...quit fiddling with the gun, properly clean, lube and go live fire the gun. Whole different set of dynamics.
How is loading the first round at a range any different from loading the first round in the basement at home? If it won't load ... it won't load.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old June 18, 2020, 07:19 AM   #30
jetinteriorguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2013
Posts: 1,330
He has indirectly inferred it only happens on a full mag. I would download by one and shoot a couple hundred rounds through it and then try full mags to see what happens. Can’t hurt to try and may save the hassle of sending it back. If it wouldn’t feed the first round no matter how many in the mag, obviously send it back.
jetinteriorguy is offline  
Old June 18, 2020, 07:51 AM   #31
Steve in Allentown,
Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Posts: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetinteriorguy View Post
He has indirectly inferred it only happens on a full mag.
I too assumed he meant it had no problems when downloaded by one. Putting rounds down range just to see what happens is not a bad idea. It may rule out certain possible causes for the malfunction and can be used to check the function of the extractor while he's at it.

As we all know, the higher in the stack a cartridge is the lower it will strike the frame ramp. Conversely, the lower in the stack a cartridge is the higher it will strike the frame ramp.

Knowing that any properly manufactured 1911 will feed any quality ammo from any quality magazine and assuming he's using quality ammo and a quality magazine we are lead to the conclusion that the frame ramp does not extend far enough down to catch the nose of the first round out of a fully loaded magazine.

Those two assumptions may be wrong and require additional information from the OP to establish their validity. We're all just rehashing what we've already discussed. At this point it's up to the OP to weigh in to move this to a conclusion.
Steve in Allentown, is offline  
Old June 18, 2020, 08:35 PM   #32
Tom-R2
Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2017
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 78
Oddly enough, I've built a couple 1911s and initially the rounds it wouldn't feed were the round nose FMJ. The top bullet in the magazine would bump against the part of the slide stop that also is pushed up by the mag follower to lock the slide open after the last round. I had to take a fine file and sandpaper to gently add just a little relief to keep it from hitting. It would mess up not only the top round, but mess up feeding of the rest of them often enough it was a real problem. A couple minutes of re-contouring and it worked great. I had to take the slide off, insert the slide stop, then insert the magazine. Once I found the spot where it was hitting, it was an easy fix. Oddly, it would feed SWC and HPs without issue, it was the broader width of the FMJ round nose that made contact.
Tom-R2 is offline  
Old June 19, 2020, 09:00 PM   #33
Drizzt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2000
Location: Moscow on the Colorado, TX
Posts: 2,559
OK, was able to sneak out for some quick range time today. I am using standard, factory-loaded, 230 grain FMJ Winchester rounds (also tried some Fiocchi). If the magazine is fully loaded, then there is a complete hang up while loading the first round. Using partially loaded magazines, the first round chambers, but not smoothly. Still am not getting the magazines to seat firmly without having to give the magazine an additional tap.
__________________
"That a free citizen should have to go before a committee, hat in hand, and pray for permission to bear arms - fantastic! Arm your daughter, sir, and pay no attention to petty bureaucrats." Robert Heinlein - Red Planet
Drizzt is offline  
Old June 19, 2020, 09:25 PM   #34
Steve in Allentown,
Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Posts: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drizzt View Post
Still am not getting the magazines to seat firmly without having to give the magazine an additional tap.
I wouldn't expect that any amount of shooting would cure the failure-to-seat problem.

1911 - Why is it so hard to seat the magazine and how do I fix it?


The normal operation of locking any fully loaded magazine into a 1911 pistol with the slide forward should require no more force than that which can be applied by pushing it into place using one thumb.

If a ball peen hammer is needed to lock it into the pistol, you’re going to be at a serious disadvantage if you ever need to perform a reload during a match or on the street.

Ignoring the magazine catch for the time being, there are four major areas that need to be checked to determine why a magazine cannot be easily seated.
  • Spring stacking
  • Base plate contact
  • Ejector contact
  • Slide contact



SPRING STACKING

As shown below, the magazine spring (blue) becomes more and more compressed as more and more rounds are loaded into the magazine. The standard flush fit magazine for use in full length 1911 frames was designed to hold seven .45 cartridges. When it is filled to capacity the coils of the spring will still have space between them. This allows the spring to easily compress more when the column of cartridges is pushed further down when the top round comes into contact with the slide’s disconnector rail (aka the stripper rail) as the magazine is seated.

With the advent of eight round flush fit magazines the issue of hard-to-seat fully loaded magazines has become common. These magazines have no more available internal space than the standard seven round magazine so design compromises had to be made to allow eight rounds to fit into a space designed for seven rounds. This resulted in much less free space between the spring coils to allow for additional compression.

Depending on the geometry of a specific pistol, the spring coils in these flush fit eight round magazines may be forced into hard contact with one another as the top round in the magazine is forcefully pushed up against the disconnector rail. This hard contact between the coils creates a solid column of steel which will not compress further. The result is failure-to-seat the full mag as well as shortened spring life. Given the application of enough force over time the magazine base plate may fail.

So, if you have a flush fit 8 round magazines that will not easily seat, only load seven rounds into them. Note that many pistols do not have this issue.




Magazine identification in the picture below from left to right:
  • flush fit 8 round Check-Mate
  • extended 8 round Check-Mate
  • extended 8 round Tripp
  • extended 10 round Check-Mate

Note that the magazine tube of the flush fit Check-Mate does not extend below the frame hence the term “flush fit”.




Each of the three extended magazines in the picture above has a tube that protrudes noticeably below the frame. These magazines have enough room to hold the specified number of rounds without over compressing the spring. These fully loaded magazines can easily be seated using one thumb.

If you want to have more than seven rounds in a magazine, keep it simple and get a magazine that was designed from the ground up to hold the number of rounds you want.




BASE PLATE CONTACT

Over insertion of a magazine into a pistol is not good. The result can be a bent / broken ejector or a pistol that is completely locked up and out of the fight.

Over insertion is prevented by one thing in the 1911 design: the nose of the magazine base plate that extends forward of the magazine tube. Pictured below is a magazine that uses a nylon base plate (aka bumper pad). The nose of the base plate (blue arrow) fits into a corresponding cut out in the frame (red arrow).

Depending on the dimensions of a specific pistol and a specific magazine it’s possible that the frame cut out isn’t deep enough to allow the magazine to be seated. If this happens with a flush fit welded base plate magazine, the frame cut out can be deepened with a file.

I have never seen this with a factory pistol. I've only ever seen this with after-market magazine wells that were attached to the pistol.

If this happens with a nylon base plate, the nylon can be filed or sanded down (blue arrow). You’ll know you have a good fit between the magazine base plate and the frame cut out when the empty magazine has a small amount of up and down slop when it’s locked into the pistol.






EJECTOR CONTACT

Contact between magazines and GI ejectors is not possible since that ejector does not extend over the magazine well as you can see in the picture below.




However, this is not uncommon with extended ejectors. Repeatedly slamming a magazine into the pistol without correcting this condition will eventually result in the bending or breaking off of the ejector nose. In the worst cases the magazine will be forced up beside the ejector and be solidly wedged in place. This often requires the use of tools to remove the magazine from the pistol. I have seen this happen too many times during local club IDPA matches.

Picture “A” below shows contact between a fully seated magazine and the ejector nose. Picture “B” shows the same magazine after the ejector was relieved to eliminate the contact. Not shown is the magazine with a cartridge in it. The cartridge was also making contact with the ejector so the ejector was further relieved to eliminate that contact and the clearance seen in "B" was the result.

To determine whether or not there is contact with the ejector remove the magazine catch, remove the slide, push the magazine as high as it will go in the magazine well and hold it there while observing its position relative to the ejector. Repeat the exercise with a cartridge in the magazine. In either case no contact is allowed with the ejector.





SLIDE CONTACT

In rare instances the right side of the top of the magazine tube ahead of the feed lips may come into contact with the underside of the slide keeping the magazine from easily locking into the pistol or preventing it altogether. I’ve only run into this in certain pistols with the combination of EGW Higher magazine catches and McCormick magazines.

To test for this condition remove the magazine spring and follower, remove the recoil spring, remove the disconnector, and install the magazine catch. Pull the slide all the way to the rear, lock the magazine tube into the pistol, and slowly ease the slide forward while being alert to any indications of contact between the slide and the magazine tube. There should be no contact between the slide and the magazine tube. This condition can be so severe that the slide will not close.

The fix is to not use an EGW Higher mag catch, not use McCormick mags, or file down the magazine’s contact point with the slide. Understand that this is not an indictment of either EGW or McCormick. They are both excellent products but using them together in some pistols may result in unwanted slide/magazine tube contact.


Last edited by Steve in Allentown,; June 20, 2020 at 04:42 PM.
Steve in Allentown, is offline  
Old June 19, 2020, 10:57 PM   #35
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 23,022
Did the gun come with a manual? If so, does it state the nominal capacity of the magazine?

Just trying to be sure that the issue isn't something as simple as trying to put 8 rounds in a 7 round magazine.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old June 20, 2020, 10:04 AM   #36
Steve in Allentown,
Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Posts: 98
Drizzt, a couple of questions for you.
  1. Will all of your magazines when EMPTY easily seat on a closed slide in your problem pistol?

  2. Will any of your magazines when FULL easily seat on a closed slide in your problem pistol?

  3. Are all of your magazines "flush fit" as shown in the picture in the post above?

  4. The picture below shows all three types of 1911 barrel feed ramps commonly available. Which one is in your problem pistol?


Last edited by Steve in Allentown,; June 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM.
Steve in Allentown, is offline  
Old June 21, 2020, 05:43 AM   #37
Kevin Rohrer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2010
Location: Medina, Ohio
Posts: 887
RIAs make excellent boat anchors and doorstops.

My suggestion: Buy quality and you won't have to post topics like this.
__________________
Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, ARTCA, and American Legion.

Caveat Emptor: Cavery Grips/AmericanGripz from Clayton, NC. He is a scammer
Kevin Rohrer is offline  
Old June 21, 2020, 08:14 AM   #38
Steve in Allentown,
Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Posts: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
My suggestion: Buy quality and you won't have to post topics like this.
Where's the fun in that? Stuff that works is sooooo boring.
Steve in Allentown, is offline  
Old June 22, 2020, 01:57 PM   #39
Steve in Allentown,
Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Posts: 98
My pistol won't feed the first round. What's wrong?

The top picture below is of a fully loaded magazine locked into the magazine well. The bottom picture shows a failure-to-feed of the first round where the nose of the bullet is jammed against the frame feed ramp. This malfunction is commonly known as a nose dive stoppage.



Many folks will suggest switching magazines, switching ammo, checking the slide stop for bullet contact, or replacing the magazine catch with an EGW Higher mag catch. While one or more of these may fix the issue none of them address the underlying problem which is most often due to geometry problems with the frame feed ramp. Specifically, the feed ramp angle and/or the ramp depth are not correct.

The image below shows the correct angle of the feed ramp as specified by John Browning. Unlike most of the dimensions for the pistol, the feed ramp angle has no +/- tolerance. It is to be exactly 31.5 degrees. In practice it is a magical number. Too steep and cartridges won't feed. Not steep enough and cartridges may escape the magazine due to inertia. The Goldilocks Principle is in play here. Not too much, not too little, just right.

In addition to the correct angle the frame feed ramp must extend far enough down into the frame to make contact with cartridges that nose dive. Ideally, the ramp should extend from the top of the frame rails downward .400" which is just about at the bottom of the frame cut out for the slide stop. The longer the ramp, the better but often a ramp that is .360" is sufficient. It all depends on other dimensions within the pistol.

The barrel bed itself must not under any circumstances measure less than .246" from the top of the ramp to the VIS. Otherwise the structural integrity of the pistol will be compromised. The longer the barrel bed, the better.



Below is a collection of pictures showing bad ramps and good ramps in terms of ramp length for .45 1911s.

#1 - bad ramp. Does not extend far enough down into the mag well.
#2 - good ramp. Extends to the bottom of the slide stop frame opening.
A - good ramp.
B - good ramp.
C - bad ramp. Does not extend far enough down into the mag well.




If you want to get a rough idea of the angle of a feed ramp you can get one of these Empire protractors from Home Depot for something less than $10. You'll have to shorten the arm enough to allow it to fit in the magazine well. While it's not a highly precise machine tool, it will let you know if the angle of a feed ramp is grossly wrong. A real machinist/1911 'smith will have the right tools (expensive) to determine the exact angle and depth of a frame feed ramp. They can also correct ramps that are bad. Correcting feed ramps is a job best left to a professional.




FYI, here's how a professional 1911 'smith fixes an out-of-spec frame ramp.







Steve in Allentown, is offline  
Old June 25, 2020, 11:22 AM   #40
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 4,031
From Drizzit:

Quote:
OK, was able to sneak out for some quick range time today. I am using standard, factory-loaded, 230 grain FMJ Winchester rounds (also tried some Fiocchi). If the magazine is fully loaded, then there is a complete hang up while loading the first round. Using partially loaded magazines, the first round chambers, but not smoothly. Still am not getting the magazines to seat firmly without having to give the magazine an additional tap.
"but not smoothly" is irrelevant at this point. Mostly because no one but you knows what that actually means at this point.

So, with a partially loaded mag a round chambers. So what happened when you pulled the trigger? What happened when you fired the gun? How many mags were you able to get through? How did the gun load, cycle, extract and function? Did you try with 7 rounds vs. 8. How many rounds in your "partially loaded" mag?

What you, and we here, need to know is how does the gun function when it fully cycles as intended. This means not by hand (when you release the slide using the slide stop, as you have been) releasing the slide as you have been means that the full power of the compressed spring is not there to push the round forward into the chamber.

So how did it work when you fired a round? Did it run through a mag or continually hang up?

tipoc
__________________
1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot.
4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it.
tipoc is offline  
Old June 30, 2020, 02:24 PM   #41
Drizzt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2000
Location: Moscow on the Colorado, TX
Posts: 2,559
Sorry it took a while for an update, but I have been out of town. Was not able to get any more range time in, as I cannot find any blasted ammo to do so. I will be sending this pistol back to RIA for service. As to why I would buy cheap, it was because I needed to find something that I was not worried about getting banged around in a pack. I enjoy my Kimbers and STI, but don't want to do that to them. I would have gone back to an HK, which most of my past pistols have been, except that I wanted to keep the same manual of arms between pistols.
__________________
"That a free citizen should have to go before a committee, hat in hand, and pray for permission to bear arms - fantastic! Arm your daughter, sir, and pay no attention to petty bureaucrats." Robert Heinlein - Red Planet
Drizzt is offline  
Old June 30, 2020, 02:56 PM   #42
Steve in Allentown,
Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Posts: 98
A good idea to send it back.

Ask them:
  1. to check the feed ramp angle and depth
  2. clearance between the magazine and the ejector
Steve in Allentown, is offline  
Old June 30, 2020, 03:19 PM   #43
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 4,031
You were able to get the gun to feed but you decided not to fire it.

Your gun your choices.

tipoc
__________________
1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot.
4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it.
tipoc is offline  
Old June 30, 2020, 07:40 PM   #44
Drizzt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2000
Location: Moscow on the Colorado, TX
Posts: 2,559
Actually Tipoc, if you would but glance at my post on June 19, you will see that I did take it to the range and did try to fire it, but it still did not feed properly, even with known good magazines. It was either not feeding the first round from the magazine, or was not locking the magazine in and allowing it to fall out from the recoil. The magazines appeared and felt like they were seated properly, but they were not. I came back to this group after being gone several years in an effort to find some genuine assistance, and several folks made good suggestions, but the level of superiority and snark demonstrated by some on this board shows me exactly why I have been told by many people that they gave up on getting into shooting because of the elitists that criticize their every move. I will get this pistol fixed, and I do appreciate the constructive input from many who tried to help, but those who just want to act like they have never had an issue and like they have nothing left to learn, you can pound sand for all I am concerned. I apologize, but I am done with this.
__________________
"That a free citizen should have to go before a committee, hat in hand, and pray for permission to bear arms - fantastic! Arm your daughter, sir, and pay no attention to petty bureaucrats." Robert Heinlein - Red Planet
Drizzt is offline  
Old June 30, 2020, 08:57 PM   #45
Henry400
Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2019
Location: Cowtown, USA
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by hub1home View Post
Lube it well and shoot it! I think that you are in for a surprise.
What he said. Grease it up well, shoot about 500 rounds of factory 230 gr ball ammunition through it. During the process, DON'T clean it. If it jams or fails to feed or fails to eject, add more grease and continue shooting. You'll thank me later.

If a particular magazine has issues when full, as others have said, load it up and let it sit for a couple of days. Alternatively, you can load that magazine up to less than full capacity for this 500 round 'break-in' procedure. Consider going with Wilson Combat or Kimber Kim-Tac magazines.
Henry400 is offline  
Old July 1, 2020, 07:08 AM   #46
jetinteriorguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2013
Posts: 1,330
DRIZZT, upon rereading some of my replies I realize they do come off as being snarky. My apologies, by my nature I tend to be blunt and straight forward so on the forums I see how it can come off as being snarky. It’s not meant that way, and once again my apologies. RIA in my experience has excellent service and I’m sure they’ll get it sorted for you. Let us know how it goes.
jetinteriorguy is offline  
Old July 1, 2020, 09:10 AM   #47
Steve in Allentown,
Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Posts: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drizzt View Post
. . . the level of superiority and snark demonstrated by some on this board shows me exactly why I have been told by many people that they gave up on getting into shooting because of the elitists that criticize their every move. . . . those who just want to act like they have never had an issue and like they have nothing left to learn, you can pound sand for all I am concerned.
Hear, hear!
Steve in Allentown, is offline  
Old July 1, 2020, 09:58 AM   #48
stinkeypete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2010
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 544
1. Steve from Allentown is a 1911 god.
2. The OP has a problem and people start jumping in with "Buy new magazines" and "Start swapping out parts on a brand new gun" advice
3. Only the wise ones said "if it doesn't work, let the manufacturer fix it under warranty"

4. No one asked "What do you mean by 'fully loaded magazine'"? or asking "are you using 7 or 8 round magazines?" or "does it run if you just put five in the magazine?

5. No one asked "how much experience do you have?"

Steve showed in diagram how stuffing a magazine "completely full" can affect the feed angle.

I hope we all can agree that before fixing something, we should discover what the problem is. I hope we can all agree that starting with the simplest of things and changing one thing at a time is the productive way to precede.

From all I hear, Rock Island is a solid .45. Please get back to us on how their service department treats you!
stinkeypete is offline  
Old July 1, 2020, 10:07 AM   #49
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 4,031
Quote:
Actually Tipoc, if you would but glance at my post on June 19, you will see that I did take it to the range and did try to fire it, but it still did not feed properly, even with known good magazines. It was either not feeding the first round from the magazine, or was not locking the magazine in and allowing it to fall out from the recoil. The magazines appeared and felt like they were seated properly, but they were not. I came back to this group after being gone several years in an effort to find some genuine assistance, and several folks made good suggestions, but the level of superiority and snark demonstrated by some on this board shows me exactly why I have been told by many people that they gave up on getting into shooting because of the elitists that criticize their every move. I will get this pistol fixed, and I do appreciate the constructive input from many who tried to help, but those who just want to act like they have never had an issue and like they have nothing left to learn, you can pound sand for all I am concerned. I apologize, but I am done with this.
Actually Drizzit you said this:

Quote:
OK, was able to sneak out for some quick range time today. I am using standard, factory-loaded, 230 grain FMJ Winchester rounds (also tried some Fiocchi). If the magazine is fully loaded, then there is a complete hang up while loading the first round. Using partially loaded magazines, the first round chambers, but not smoothly. Still am not getting the magazines to seat firmly without having to give the magazine an additional tap.
Based on this, that you could get the gun to feed, I had earlier encouraged you to fire the gun and continued to do so. I asked you what happened when you fired it. But you did not fire it even though the gun could load from the mag.

There are two types of folks who try to diagnose gun issues while manually feeding rounds through the piece from home. People who are very knowledgeable of 1911's and folks who aren't. The latter are more common.

In this case you were gifted a brand new pistol.

Quote:
I was given a brand new, never been fired, RIA 1911A1 Tactical. Before even taking it to the range, i like to feed a few magazines through manually, just to check for feed issues. The factory mag hangs on loading the first round if it is fully loaded, and I have tried 4 other after market magazines that work as they should in my other 1911s, and those will not seat properly without banging rather hard on the butt of the magazine. I like this gun, and it has a good trigger, so is there anything you might suggest to get it running as it should?
So I encouraged you to take the piece to the range and try shooting it. When you get a gun, new or used, clean and lube it and take it to the range to check it out with factory ball ammo and what mags you have. For most shooters this is the only reliable way to check the gun out and see and diagnose any potential issues. It is the most reliable because it removes from the table a number of potential problems and allows for isolation of issues. this includes user induced issues. Take it from there.

This is a much easier route than trying to diagnose an issue in an online gun forum.

If the central issue was that no mags fit the gun properly due to a machining error that would have been quickly apparent.

There was no snark in any of my posts. There was straight forward opinion.

I wish you good luck.
__________________
1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot.
4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it.
tipoc is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10488 seconds with 10 queries