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Old August 13, 2017, 12:32 AM   #226
Brownstone322
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No one said they're simply gonna drop one in the mail; I am aware you're gonna have to send them the gun. But no one actually said they're actually gonna "fix" the fire-control units either. It'd make a lot more manufacturing sense to swap that part out (like a motherboard) than to actually repair it, even though it's the only regulated part.

This is an important distinction, because if they use new FCUs, then they can simply say, "any serial number higher than 'XXXXXXXX' is new-generation drop-safe," and that (the easy ability to verify what's "good" and what's not) is the only part I care about. (Oh, but it'd also mean faster turnaround for those who are affected, which is a good thing too.)
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Old August 13, 2017, 12:39 AM   #227
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I disagree with the notion that it would make more sense.

Also, see Aquila's comments. What's been said so far indicates they are going to repair existing pistols, nothing has indicated replacement of FCUs.

Quote:
Oh, but it'd also mean faster turnaround for those who are affected, which is a good thing too.
I don't think this is true. As opposed to manufacturing just the small parts they'd now have to manufacture the new FCU bodies as well.
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Old August 13, 2017, 07:27 AM   #228
Bartholomew Roberts
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Some interesting information on the new upgrade:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...aded-sig-p320/

They describe the modifications as "three commercial P320s with the reduced-mass trigger, sear, and striker plus the new sear cage and trigger disconnect had been installed."

Interesting quote here:
Quote:
Nine drops right on the money, zero discharges. Additionally, zero striker releases. In TTAG’s testing and, from the data SIG showed us, in their testing, there were incidents where the striker slipped off the sear but the striker block safety was still in place and, therefore, the gun did not fire. With the upgrade parts, the incidents of striker release were significantly reduced.
So, it appears that in at least some cases previously, the striker was slipping off the sear but being stopped by the striker block. And in some cases the striker block wasn't stopping it. It sounds like trigger mass plays a role; but isn't the whole story.
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Old August 13, 2017, 07:32 AM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
. . . .It sounds like trigger mass plays a role; but isn't the whole story.
This doesn't just fill me with confidence in the P320.
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Old August 13, 2017, 10:28 AM   #230
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Ain't nuthin' perfect.

How many years did we consider the 1911 to be safe, even carried in Condition 1? Colt started selling 1911s on the commercial market in 1911 or 1912. The Swarz firing pin safety mechanism wasn't introduced until the 1930s, it wasn'r ever used on all models, and it was dropped at the start of WW2 and never reintroduced.

The Series 80 firing pin safety system was introduced in the early 1980s, 70 years after the 1911 first went on sale, and even now the Series 80 system isn't used on all Colt models, and many makers of 1911s don't use it at all. For years there was an Internet article that purported to "prove" that a 1911 would not fire when dropped in its muzzle. That was accepted as gospel and cited by many people (including me), until a few years ago when Walt Kuleck and Drake Oldham performed their series of drop tests and showed that a 1911 WILL fire when dropped on its muzzle. Walt's testing convinced me to only carry 1911s with a Series 80 firing pin block.

But even that only addresses a muzzle drop. The 1911 trigger has mass. I wonder what would happen if a 1911 were dropped at the same (or similar) angle as the P320?

To me, what this situation demonstrates is that it's impossible (in practical terms) to test guns for every conceivable drop attitude. Am I going to take out a 1911 and start dropping it at different angles? Heck, no. Nor am I going to stop carrying and sell all my 1911s because of the remote, mathematical possibility that there may be some combination of angle and orientation under which even a 1911 with the Series 80 firing pin block might drop fire. I'm going to continue to carry 1911s, and I'm going to continue to do my best not to drop my firearms.

I don't have any quibble with the fact that SIG tested the P320 to the industry standard and stopped at that point. Testing costs money, and no company is in business to waste money. (Well, with the possible exception of Tesla.) If I have any issues with SIG, it's with the fact that they seem to have become aware of this as a problem early enough to have changed the design of the pistol they submitted to the military, yet they did NOT immediately change the pistols in commercial production or immediately issue a recall. They kept quiet until someone let the cat out of the bag, and now they've been caught with their fingers in the cookie jar.

That, to me, does not speak well of SIG. Not the fact that the issue arose, but the way they approach (not) addressing it.
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Old August 13, 2017, 10:53 AM   #231
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Quote:
what this situation demonstrates is that it's impossible (in practical terms) to test guns for every conceivable drop attitude.
Certainly a completely exhaustive test would be extreme. However adding at least some kind of angle component to a test that doesn't include any would be a drastic improvement.

Quote:
I'm going to continue to do my best not to drop my firearms.
This isn't so much directed at you, but I feel like this is a strawman argument. I don't know anyone that has advocated dropping pistols or not being careful with pistols. This event literally changes nothing for me in how I handle my P320 because my goal was always to not drop it. That doesn't mean this design can't be improved and signs so far are that it has been. If your point is this should remind us to be careful okay then.

Quote:
Testing costs money, and no company is in business to waste money.
Recalls cost money too. I also think the word "waste" is a bit misplaced here.
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Old August 13, 2017, 11:01 AM   #232
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I think it's a little disingenuous to say that it only discharges at a 30 degree angle; it makes it sound like the 30 degrees was an arbitrary angle that couldn't have been forseen as something worth testing.

The reason the 30 degree angle matters for the 320 is that this is the most vertical angle available where the back of the slide is impacted directly. This is is the angle which maximizes force backwards on the trigger when the slide is struck. The problem with the testing protocols is that it was written to be generalized for all pistols, so they went with 'standard' angles (90 degrees, and then 45 degrees for the MHS trials) rather than intentionally try to cause a discharge. This also indicates the gun was also never dropped directly onto the slide at 90 degrees - something else I would have assumed was a standard test protocol, but evidently isn't.

I was initially inclined to give Sig a pass for not catching the defect when it passed the standard tests, but now I'm rethinking that. The people most qualified to figure out how to 'break' a gun are the people who designed it. If you're going to develop a novel firing mechanism, then it is absolutely your responsibility to try and break it rather than relying on standard tests. That's the thing with new designs - the failure points are very likely to be different from those on older designs.

Last, there is Sig's weaseling about with regard to both the Dallas PD, and the 'voluntary upgrade'. They CT officer was injured in January, and they evidently fixed the trigger in the MHS trials - yet when DPD contacted them, they insisted they were overreacting to standard boilerplate in the manual. Had Omaha Outdoors not posted that video, would Sig have ever even acknowledged the problem?

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Old August 13, 2017, 11:28 AM   #233
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Weird thing. When I went to Police Academy, they told us to not drop our weapons. One female officer dropped hers and as a result failed firearms training and the Academy.
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Old August 13, 2017, 11:30 AM   #234
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No one is saying you should drop your weapons. Improving this design and good weapons handling are not mutually exclusive. You're pushing that strawman hard.
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Old August 13, 2017, 11:53 AM   #235
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When I was 16, I was taught not to get into head-on collisions. I'd still like my seatbelts and airbags to work.

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Old August 13, 2017, 12:32 PM   #236
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Quote:
Last, there is Sig's weaseling about with regard to both the Dallas PD, and the 'voluntary upgrade'. They CT officer was injured in January, and they evidently fixed the trigger in the MHS trials - yet when DPD contacted them, they insisted they were overreacting to standard boilerplate in the manual. Had Omaha Outdoors not posted that video, would Sig have ever even acknowledged the problem?
The thing that irks me about that is here in Texas, the lawyer would have to make a demand on SIG before he could sue under a tort claim (basically, he'd have to give SIG a chance to make it right before filing a lawsuit). I don't know Connecticut law; but on the same day that lawsuit got filed, SIG issued a press release stating there "There have been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in the U.S. commercial market." So, to me, it seems highly probable SIG received a demand letter advising them of the officer's drop-related injury and his belief it was due to a defect in the P320 before that press release or DPD memo came out.

So, SIG was either 1) completely unaware of a lawsuit being filed that same day; 2) aware of the lawsuit but weasel-worded the "U.S. commercial market" aspect; or 3) flat out lied.
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Old August 13, 2017, 03:36 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
So, SIG was either 1) completely unaware of a lawsuit being filed that same day; 2) aware of the lawsuit but weasel-worded the "U.S. commercial market" aspect; or 3) flat out lied.
I wondered about that, too. My take was (and still is, until I see something to convince me otherwise) that SIG was weasel-wording, and pretending that firearms sold to police departments are somehow not in the "commercial" market.
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Old August 13, 2017, 03:42 PM   #238
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Weird thing. When I went to Police Academy, they told us to not drop our weapons. One female officer dropped hers and as a result failed firearms training and the Academy.
Let's take it on faith, for the sake of argument, that you learned your lesson in the Academy and there is no possibility of your EVER dropping a firearm. So this topic is not a concern for you, right?

Wrong.

This is still literally a matter of life and death, even for you. If the person shooting next to you at the range drops their firearm and it discharges with the muzzle pointing at you, all the training you received at the Academy won't help you a bit.
Quote:
The people most qualified to figure out how to 'break' a gun are the people who designed it. If you're going to develop a novel firing mechanism, then it is absolutely your responsibility to try and break it rather than relying on standard tests. That's the thing with new designs - the failure points are very likely to be different from those on older designs.
This is a very important point.

Yes, testing to industry standards is great, but the testing itself is not the point. The point is to insure that the gun is safe in situations reasonably likely to be encountered in real life. Any designer worth his/her salt should have a good idea of what kinds of things are mostly likely to compromise the design and those things, in addition to the industry standard tests, should be tested in development and on the final production items.
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Old August 13, 2017, 05:34 PM   #239
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My son owns a SIG P320 Compact 9mm w/the APEX flat trigger.
After reading some of these threads about the P320 going off when dropped, I decided to test it myself on his.

I loaded up a 15rd mag w/14rds of 124gr FMJ topped off w/a snap cap. Chambered a separate snap cap before seating the loaded mag.
As suggested, I held the P320 hanging by the trigger guard w/the rear of the slide a measured 4' off the carpeted floor.

It required 17 careful attempts to get 10 solid hits on the rear of the slide as seen in the various posted videos.
Trigger was checked and reset after every attempt.
End result: At no time did the trigger move enough to drop the striker, it still required a full pull of the trigger to do so.

This could be due to using a Compact, or the APEX flat trigger, both or ???

I do not claim this was scientific testing, but thought I would post the result for those who might be interested.

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Old August 13, 2017, 06:53 PM   #240
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Actually what you just did was test the Apex trigger, which is really good info. My guess is the reduced weight of the Apex kit also alleviated the issue. Good news for Apex. I do wonder if after the recall if their trigger will still work.


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Old August 13, 2017, 07:25 PM   #241
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I like that example at the range shot by an errant round from a dropped 320.

So, I have a P320 but I don't want to go for the voluntary upgrade. Do you see any liability to SIG? Myself?
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Old August 13, 2017, 07:41 PM   #242
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So, I have a P320 but I don't want to go for the voluntary upgrade. Do you see any liability to SIG? Myself?
Not to SIG. If they offered to fix the problem and you decided you would rather have a non-drop safe pistol than have it fixed for free, at that point, I would think that any future results of that decision would be your responsibility.
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Old August 13, 2017, 07:56 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
The thing that irks me about that is here in Texas, the lawyer would have to make a demand on SIG before he could sue under a tort claim (basically, he'd have to give SIG a chance to make it right before filing a lawsuit). I don't know Connecticut law; but on the same day that lawsuit got filed, SIG issued a press release stating there "There have been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in the U.S. commercial market." So, to me, it seems highly probable SIG received a demand letter advising them of the officer's drop-related injury and his belief it was due to a defect in the P320 before that press release or DPD memo came out.

So, SIG was either 1) completely unaware of a lawsuit being filed that same day; 2) aware of the lawsuit but weasel-worded the "U.S. commercial market" aspect; or 3) flat out lied.
There is no doubt in my mind the SIG was fully aware of the drop-fire incident that resulted in serious injury to the Stamford CT police officer who has filed the multi-million dollar law suit against SIG. That event occurred way back in January.

An article in the Connecticut Law Tribune quoted counsel for the plaintiff as saying there had been discussions with SIG about a settlement before suit was filed, but they had not resulted in a resolution.

The article also said that the Stamford CT police department pulled the P320 from the duty roster after the incident. I do not find it believable that a department taking this action after one of their officers had suffered serious injury from a drop-fire incident would not have had some pretty immediate discussion with SIG.

On another forum, an individual posted that he had a discussion with a person who was present at the time of that drop-fire incident. That party told him the pistol had been sent to SIG the next day. SIG examined it and found "nothing wrong". Now that last is clearly a "I heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy" type of story, but common sense dictates that is exactly what would have been done in such a situation.

What SIG did with this information is anybody's guess.
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Old August 13, 2017, 08:18 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by pblanc
What SIG did with this information is anybody's guess.
Apparently they made a determination that sales to police departments are not part of the "commercial market."

Police sales are clearly not military, so if they're not military and they're not comercial ... what are they?
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Old August 13, 2017, 08:36 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
This is still literally a matter of life and death, even for you. If the person shooting next to you at the range drops their firearm and it discharges with the muzzle pointing at you, all the training you received at the Academy won't help you a bit. This is a very important point.
I was thinking precisely the same thing. I've never dropped a firearm, but I have certainly dropped (or knocked over) other items I never ended to upend, like a coffee cup, dishes or a wine glass. Stuff happens.

More to the point, in the range we have everything from experts to beginners, and it stands to reason that beginners might need time to get comfortable. Handling a live firearm for the first few times isn't necessarily an easy thing to get used to, especially with a .357 going off in the lane to one side and an AR hammering away on the other. I've never actually asked a range officer if he's seen firearms get dropped (I will ask next time), but I suspect it happens occasionally, even among experienced shooters.

So yeah, drop safety is exceedingly important, no matter how highly one regards one's own infallibility.
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Old August 14, 2017, 08:32 AM   #246
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Here is some additional info.

http://videos.recoilweb.com/channel/...-p320pr-081117
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Old August 15, 2017, 01:55 AM   #247
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I wonder how the Sig P250 would do in the same 30 degree test.

Also, does anyone know whether the upgrade modifies the grip module?
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Old August 15, 2017, 09:50 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by JJNA
I wonder how the Sig P250 would do in the same 30 degree test.
No problem! The two guns are radically different in their operation.

P320 = very short trigger stroke that nearly immediately disengages the striker block and a substantially fully-cocked striker that can be bounced out of sear engagement.

P250 = a very long trigger stroke that disengages the firing pin block at the end of its movement, a hammer that is fully at rest until pulled through its entire arc of movement by the trigger, and a firing pin that is fully at rest until struck by the hammer; the hammer is also exposed from the back of the slide as it is being cocked.
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Old August 15, 2017, 09:57 AM   #249
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Maybe Sig, along with upgrading the 320, will resurrect the 250. Wouldn't break my heart.
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Old August 15, 2017, 12:11 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by JJNA View Post
I wonder how the Sig P250 would do in the same 30 degree test.

Also, does anyone know whether the upgrade modifies the grip module?
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Originally Posted by gc70 View Post
No problem! The two guns are radically different in their operation.

P320 = very short trigger stroke that nearly immediately disengages the striker block and a substantially fully-cocked striker that can be bounced out of sear engagement.

P250 = a very long trigger stroke that disengages the firing pin block at the end of its movement, a hammer that is fully at rest until pulled through its entire arc of movement by the trigger, and a firing pin that is fully at rest until struck by the hammer; the hammer is also exposed from the back of the slide as it is being cocked.
Well....the 250 will definitely fire when the firing pin is struck by the hammer.....

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