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Old July 19, 2017, 08:54 AM   #1
g.willikers
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Where else but in America.

Where else but in the US would a civilian shooter win a major match over military and police competitors?
In many (most?) countries it's not even possible for mere civilians to own guns, let alone being able to get good enough to do anything like this.

It happened at the Camp Perry precision pistol match.
A full account is here:
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/...CENSORED-=0717
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Old July 19, 2017, 09:14 AM   #2
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Absolutely.
But in a later report, the civilian who won Jonathan Shue, credited his win to his new counterbalancing beard, something to look for in future competitions.
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Old July 19, 2017, 09:22 AM   #3
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Civilians beat Mil/LE competitors in local and major matches in dozens of types of shooting competitions every weekend. The AMU shooters, in all their disciplines, are impressive and beating any of them, regardless, is an impressive feat.
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Old July 19, 2017, 09:40 AM   #4
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Neat. I think Gil Hebard was the only champion civilian shooter of his day.
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Old July 19, 2017, 11:28 AM   #5
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Wasn't Jim Clark the first guy to win Camp Perry who wasn't active-duty military?

Travis Tomasie was USPSA champ, and IPSC world champ, and he was always a contender when he shot for the AMU, but I think he was already out of the army when he won.
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Old July 19, 2017, 11:58 AM   #6
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Military and police don't shoot anywhere near as much as people seem to think. Far less so in the National Guard/Militia.(Regm't ran one range weekend in the 6 years I was there. 1/3 of the attendees were my Cadets). Civilians who shoot for recreation or competitively do so far more often.
My team at the club I shot with in TO years ago used to wipe the floor with our TO PD competitors regularly. ISU(now called ISS) shooting. One silly cop showed up with his service revolver(said it was years ago) with no sights for an Olympic style bullseye match.
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Old July 20, 2017, 08:19 AM   #7
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The Weapons & Materials Research Directorate of the Army Research Laboratory published a white paper of these efforts called "Sniper Weapon Fire Control Error Budget Analysis"

Comparing Military Snipers with Civilian Competitive Shooters


According to their tests, the standard deviation of aiming error for the best, formally-trained operational snipers was three times worse than tested High Power and Long Range competition shooters sufficiently skilled to compete successfully in national level match competition at Camp Perry and the like.

In fact, the worst competition shooters tested were as good or better than the best snipers in basic holding and shooting fundamentals.

Its not difficult to understand when you consider that the military (excluding the Army Marksmanship Unit) don't really shoot that much.

It's simply not possible for a soldier to draw his weapon and shoot every day, or even spend hours setting around the billets dry firing.
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Old July 20, 2017, 10:40 AM   #8
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On the other hand it's a good case of why mainland America will never be invaded.
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Old July 20, 2017, 06:05 PM   #9
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Not militarily, anyway.
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Old July 21, 2017, 07:34 AM   #10
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Uncle Walt sez, "We have met the enemy and they is us."
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Old July 22, 2017, 01:44 PM   #11
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In my 4 years of Active Duty-Army, 1967-1971 I went to the range THREE times, only fired TWICE. Marksmanship and small arms proficiency back then
rated about 79 on a scale of 1-10, the firearms enthusiast was derided as a "nut". Recreational shooting opportunities for a single EM living in the barracks were non-existent. As were competitions. Small arms were seen as a best a necessary evil and usually an annoyance and a nuisance.
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Old July 23, 2017, 10:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Comparing Military Snipers with Civilian Competitive Shooters

According to their tests, the standard deviation of aiming error for the best, formally-trained operational snipers was three times worse than tested High Power and Long Range competition shooters sufficiently skilled to compete successfully in national level match competition at Camp Perry and the like.

In fact, the worst competition shooters tested were as good or better than the best snipers in basic holding and shooting fundamentals.
That might have more to do with the fact that being a sniper is like 10% basic marksmanship and 90% other stuff like field craft.
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Old July 26, 2017, 05:01 PM   #13
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Happens quite often here considering how often police and military get to shoot.
in fact one of the people in my safe handling class said she joined the club because the police gave her a gun but won't teach how to shoot it properly. (a bit concerning in itself)
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Old July 27, 2017, 08:01 AM   #14
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Quote:
That might have more to do with the fact that being a sniper is like 10% basic marksmanship and 90% other stuff like field craft.
That may be true, but we're discussing marksmanship here.

I'm sure few civilian shooters are independently wealthy. We all have to have a job or some sort to feed our shooting hobbies.

So as shooting is just a portion of a sniper's job, competition shooting is just a portion of the civilians job. He probably spends 90% of his time working in an office/shop or what ever. Not to mention most of us have families we need to spend time with.

The point being, civilians on the whole, spend the effort to become better marksmen then the military sniper.

I taught sniper schools, and I was a LE firearms instructor. The students that progressed are the ones who went above and beyond, to practice their skills.
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Old August 12, 2017, 05:25 PM   #15
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Quote:
In many (most?) countries it's not even possible for mere civilians to own guns, let alone being able to get good enough to do anything like this.
no democratic country completely bans guns

even Japan who is possibly the strictest democratic country have some form of

a bunch of quasi dictatorships have more severe bans

You do see that American shooters aren't winning every olympic shooting event, world championship in IPSC, 3-gun and so on?

same thing happens here

civilian shooters are even brought in for consulting and training by the armed forces
and we have a great system of soldiers getting to compete in IPSC with their service weapons
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Old August 14, 2017, 09:30 AM   #16
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Back in 65 and 66 I was assigned to the same post as the Army Pentathalon team. When they came to the mess hall they came directly from the stable. They were finally asked to go home and shower before the mess hall.

How much they shot??? Never heard much about their endeavors.
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Old August 14, 2017, 03:46 PM   #17
Don P
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I shoot with a gentleman that has won both rifle and pistol competitions at Camp Perry. He is a civilian
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Old August 15, 2017, 01:26 AM   #18
Model12Win
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SIGSHR View Post
In my 4 years of Active Duty-Army, 1967-1971 I went to the range THREE times, only fired TWICE. Marksmanship and small arms proficiency back then
rated about 79 on a scale of 1-10, the firearms enthusiast was derided as a "nut". Recreational shooting opportunities for a single EM living in the barracks were non-existent. As were competitions. Small arms were seen as a best a necessary evil and usually an annoyance and a nuisance.
Sounds exactly like my recent experiences in the Air Force.

Most would be very surprised how few care about shooting, and how many consider annual qualifications an annoyance or a cause for concern when they find out their coworkers are firearms enthusiasts. Actually just recently they got rid of the annual qualification requirements. You need only qualify right before you deploy on either the M4 or M9. No I am not making that up and wish it weren't true.

The twisted idea from many civillians that everyone in the military is a highly trained firearms expert and likes guns/shooting is 100% fantasy.
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Old August 15, 2017, 05:47 AM   #19
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Shue did a great job. Note, though, that the next six places (2-7) were all military.

SFC Brandon Green was the big winner in HP CMP. National Trophy Individual score of 499-30X. He was perfect in the Hearst match with a clean 300.
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