The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 19, 2019, 01:39 PM   #1
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,118
Can Pocket Carry Be Beat? Observations from the Laser Range.

My typical rig is a Glock 19 in a Sparks Versa-Max 2. At seven yards, I am at a pretty consistent 1.8-2.0 to get an A-zone hit on the head of an IPSC target. On a related note, if I start firing as soon as I have sights on the torso A-zone, the first shot comes at about 1.3 and the third shot to the head A-zone still comes at about 1.8-2.0.

Today, it occurred to me that I should do some pocket carry work since I’ve been carrying that way more frequently now and I rarely get to practice the drawstroke like that at the range. I set up the shot timer with a 1.8 par time and went to work with a Glock 26 and Galco pocket holster.

The first thing I learned is that pants matter. The shorts I was wearing had deep vertical pockets and my draw times were not only glacial; but occasionally the pocket holster would still be on the gun. And I was starting with my hand on the gun even! Then I changed shorts and totally new paradigm. The pockets were cut lower and the hook on the Galco holster caught every time. I just established a master grip and pulled the gun out of my pocket naturally.

It was just boring. Making A-zone head hits in under 1.8 (which is difficult for me with my normal rig) wasn’t even challenging. At 3/4 speed I could make the hit easily and still have time to think about it before the par buzzer sounded.

The flip side is carrying a Glock 26 in a pocket holster looks like you’ve got the paperback copy of Monster Hunters, International stuffed in your front pocket. It doesn’t look like a gun; but it doesn’t look normal either. But the results seem pretty unbeatable...
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old May 19, 2019, 02:02 PM   #2
DaleA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2002
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 4,374
Quote:
got the paperback copy of Monster Hunters, International stuffed in your front pocket
That would be a GOOD thing.
https://www.amazon.com/International...s%2C161&sr=1-1
AND
https://monsterhunternation.com/2015...ontrol-repost/
DaleA is offline  
Old May 19, 2019, 02:05 PM   #3
JERRYS.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 2,282
yeah, there is pocket carry that doesn't look like anything is in your pocket, then there is pocket carry that looks like you've stolen the Gideon's Bible from your room at Motel 6.
JERRYS. is offline  
Old May 19, 2019, 04:02 PM   #4
Yankee Doodle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2004
Posts: 619
A properly made and properly fitted pocket holster will NEVER come out with the gun. I repeat, NEVER.
Get in touch with Robert Mika Holsters, and order one with the square bottom, and one with the round bottom made for the gun you will be carrying, and the shape of your pants pocket. Your problem will be permanently solved.
I Have been using them for 10 years and have never had one draw with the gun.
Yankee Doodle is offline  
Old May 19, 2019, 04:18 PM   #5
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,118
Quote:
made for the gun you will be carrying, and the shape of your pants pocket
That’s kind of the point I was making. The shape of your pants pocket is an important factor. I agree a holster custom made for the gun you are carrying AND the shape of your pants pocket is unlikely to come out with the gun. Now all you need to do is have the same pants pocket in every set of pants/shorts you wear.*

*And for the record, the same manufacturer made both pairs of shorts I used here.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old May 19, 2019, 05:55 PM   #6
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,127
I pocket carry occasionally. When I have been to the range, I find that I am much quicker if I start with my hand in my pocket and on the gun (premise that I know a threat is present) than with normal belt holster carry where I can't rest my hand on the gun without the world knowing. However, pocket carry is much slower than belt holster carry if I have to start with my hands in the same position off the gun, such as in surrender position.

Pocket carry is also much slower for me when seated.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

Last edited by Double Naught Spy; May 19, 2019 at 08:06 PM.
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old May 19, 2019, 06:34 PM   #7
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,118
I think that’s an important point. If you don’t start with a mastergrip on the pistol (and good pockets), pocket carry is very slow. The big advantage is that you can assume a mastergrip on your pistol in a way that doesn’t alert others. However, if you aren’t able to use that advantage, pocket carry is painfully slow.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old May 19, 2019, 08:38 PM   #8
Yankee Doodle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2004
Posts: 619
B. R.
Give Robert a call. Number is on his website. Explain your situation, and he will be able to tell you if he can help. This is one site where you get to talk to the man himself, so what have you got to lose? He won't try to sell you something that he thinks won't work.
Yankee Doodle is offline  
Old May 20, 2019, 05:21 PM   #9
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,373
I have tried pocket carry with a G26 and it just doesn't work for me and my pockets due to the shape of the pistol. For me, it's a lot easier to get a revolver like a 642 or 342 out of a pocket quickly though a G26 is far easier to shoot well once it is out.

I practice a lot with the 642/342 J frames and it isn't difficult for me to get first round hits on a 6"x11" target at five yards in less than one second if I have my hand on the revolver when the beeper goes off. But despite not practicing much with the G26, from the low ready, it always beets the J frames for me, especially when the distances grow.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old May 20, 2019, 05:37 PM   #10
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,807
Can pocket carry be beat? sure. Everything can be beat
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old May 20, 2019, 08:03 PM   #11
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 9,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
I think that’s an important point. If you don’t start with a mastergrip on the pistol (and good pockets), pocket carry is very slow. The big advantage is that you can assume a mastergrip on your pistol in a way that doesn’t alert others. However, if you aren’t able to use that advantage, pocket carry is painfully slow.
I don't pocket carry and don't plan to, though I understand why some end up going that route. I don't think it's that discrete. If I see a guy walking around with his hand stuck in his pocket, it stands out to me. If I were in some self defense situation, or in an altercation with someone that was escalating then a hand in a pocket is a big warning signal to me. Hands kill.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
TunnelRat is online now  
Old May 21, 2019, 06:22 AM   #12
Lohman446
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 1,978
Some of you have massive pockets. Gun belt + loose clothing = I assume you have a gun. Clothes that hang to one side because you decided to carry a heavy pistol without a gun belt is the same assumption. Its not nearly as discrete as some people want it to be when you get past the small .380 class of guns and even those are sometimes pushing it.
Lohman446 is offline  
Old May 21, 2019, 08:45 AM   #13
rpseraph
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2015
Location: MinneSNOWta
Posts: 448
I am 6' 4", 275 lbs and there is no way I could conceal pocket carry a G26 or something like it. When I pocket carry, which is often, it is something like a LCP II which disappears in the pocket. I use a kydex pocket holster with a hook on it.

When I can, I am going to carry a double stack like an XDM compact or a G19-size IWB. Because I can conceal it that way! I always want to carry the most gun that I can conceal (and be comfortable, honestly.)

So if I had a full grip on my pocket pistol, it would be faster than drawing from IWB concealed, of course. If I had a full grip on both, I'll take the bigger gun. But it would be 7 rounds of 380 slightly less accurately vs 14 rounds of 9mm more accurately. I guess its a choice that has to be made, balancing power, capacity, speed, and 'concealability.'
__________________
Don't just train your trigger finger... train how to use your medkit, train your mind with books, train your soul in church, train to be a better spouse, train to be a better parent. Be well-rounded, the world needs you to be.
rpseraph is offline  
Old May 21, 2019, 10:35 AM   #14
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,176
My pockets don't carry an M&P.

Also I can't do a Bill Drill in under 1.5 seconds with pocket carry.

Last edited by zincwarrior; May 21, 2019 at 10:44 AM.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old May 21, 2019, 12:43 PM   #15
sarge912
Member
 
Join Date: May 18, 2019
Location: Beautiful Parma Ohio
Posts: 68
If by pocket carry you mean in the front pocket on ones strong side, I find it difficult to draw from a seated position, especially in a motor vehicle. I usually slide it under my strong side thigh, still in the pocket holster.
sarge912 is offline  
Old May 22, 2019, 08:12 AM   #16
jfruser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 264
1. Discrete pocket carry can be tough to suss out in the day of smart phones. Is that a J-frame or an I-phone or is he H-appy to see me? Assumes appropriate pocket gun and holster and pants, shot or long.

2. The discrete hand resting on the grip at T=0 is of great advantage and comfort, no doubt.

3. Glock 26 in a front pocket requires a LARGE front pocket and preferably pleated pants.
__________________
Regards, jfruser
"We have now sunk to a depth at which re-statement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men."----George Orwell
jfruser is offline  
Old May 22, 2019, 08:51 AM   #17
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Starkville, MS
Posts: 6,997
Quote:
or is he H-appy to see me?
If I see that someone is THAT happy to see me the I'll know that I've mistakenly entered the wrong bar.
Doyle is offline  
Old May 22, 2019, 09:27 AM   #18
davidsog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2018
Posts: 987
Quote:
If by pocket carry you mean in the front pocket on ones strong side, I find it difficult to draw from a seated position,
This...

Pocket carry is one of those things that tends to work out well on the range and not so well in reality.
davidsog is offline  
Old May 22, 2019, 09:30 AM   #19
davidsog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2018
Posts: 987
Quote:
The big advantage is that you can assume a mastergrip on your pistol in a way that doesn’t alert others.
Be careful this is kind of a faulty thinking and reliance upon the "combat fairy". While the ignorant might allow you to get a nice grip on that pocket rocket....

The informed and dangerous know that hands kill and you sticking your hand deep in your pocket is not the deception you think.
davidsog is offline  
Old May 22, 2019, 03:04 PM   #20
hagar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2000
Location: Colombia, SC
Posts: 709
There were a few times in my life when I had a gun in my right hand, had my arms crossed in front of my chest with it under my left armpit assessing a potential threat without them having a clue. Or maybe they did and didn't press their luck any further!

On one occasion they thought I was oblivious when they tried a verbal armed robbery of my friend at an ATM, they had no idea where that Sig in my hand came from.. The biggest luck they had that day was that they did not display a knife or a gun, just threatened to shove a 45 in his face. Then all of a sudden it was "nonono, we are only joking" while running there arses off back to the getaway car.

I have observed the same thing about pocket carry, by the time you get it out, Ruth Bader Ginsburg will be dead and buried. Mexican carry is so much faster, quieter and smoother.
__________________
I don't have time for busy people
hagar is offline  
Old May 22, 2019, 04:35 PM   #21
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,118
You know, I’ve been pocket carrying for awhile now and haven’t had the difficulties some of you seem to be having. Even in places where being made would have been a big professional faux pas, nobody commented.

In at least one case, I told the person I would be carrying (showing a new CCW some tricks) and even though he could see I had something in my front pocket he didn’t recognize it as a pistol despite being prewarned.

But again, style of clothing is an important factor in pocket carry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hagar
Mexican carry is so much faster, quieter and smoother.
Quieter? My experience is Mexican carry has its own problems, particularly when it comes to retention of the pistol in anything but ideal conditions (and that’s modified Mexican carry with a string holster even).

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; May 22, 2019 at 04:45 PM.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old May 22, 2019, 05:18 PM   #22
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 9,610
I've seen people open carry on private property and no one said anything. Just because people don't say anything doesn't mean no one noticed. And yes some people are oblivious. But just because some people are oblivious doesn't mean everyone is. If it's just in your pocket sure could be anything, depending on the size (at some point it gets a bit odd). But if the argument is you can walk around with the pistol clasped in your hand while in the pocket and no one will be the wiser, I just don't think it holds true.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
TunnelRat is online now  
Old May 22, 2019, 07:09 PM   #23
Cheapshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 7,890
Quote:
Some of you have massive pockets. Gun belt + loose clothing = I assume you have a gun. Clothes that hang to one side because you decided to carry a heavy pistol without a gun belt is the same assumption. Its not nearly as discrete as some people want it to be when you get past the small .380 class of guns and even those are sometimes pushing it.
News flash....Nobody is looking at your pockets, or pants. Even if they are they don't really "see", and if they do they don't know what they are seeing.
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!
Cheapshooter is offline  
Old May 23, 2019, 09:17 AM   #24
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,634
Pocket carry is not for me.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old May 23, 2019, 12:40 PM   #25
CDW4ME
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2009
Posts: 1,080
Assume pocket carrying in your dominant hand pocket, what if dominant hand is "unavailable" for whatever reason, can the pistol be quickly drawn with weak hand.
Probably not.
That problem could apply to strong side IWB as well.
A solution would be have a 2nd pistol quickly accessible to weak hand, like weak hand pocket.

Not directed toward OP:
Yea, I know, you're not living in a war zone, not a cop, statistics, not carrying two pistols, aint gonna happen ... there I saved hitting quote to tell me that.
__________________
I'm not inclined to disarm for a concert, game, (entertainment) and I ain't going on a plane or cruise.
"Wouldn't want to / Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.
CDW4ME is online now  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11023 seconds with 11 queries