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Old April 27, 2017, 11:21 AM   #26
T. O'Heir
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"...rifles are better at 99.9% of all fighting..." Yep. Except that the guy in his underwear (or not), in the middle of the night, investigating a 'bump', isn't military and isn't going into combat.
The answer is use what you can shoot best. And what will not send its projectile through walls and for miles. That is a shotgun with No. 2 or so bird shot or BB's. The shotgun(doesn't have to be a pump gun) is way more intimidating than any rifle or hand gun.
"...the red line..." That can be measured in your home. Longest distance needed.
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Old April 27, 2017, 11:31 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MosinNOUGHT
This has been a dilemma for quite some time and I just wanted another point of view on this. Supposedly, handguns are more maneuverable, shotguns spread and are easier to hit with, but rifles seem to hit harder and are accurate. What are you're preferences?
I think, in practical terms, that my preference for home defense is a handgun. For me, anyway, it is the quickest to reach and put into action. A handgun is easier to maneuver around with, less likely to be grabbed from you by the bad guy and can be handled/fired one handed fairly easily.
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Old April 27, 2017, 11:34 AM   #28
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The answer is use what you can shoot best. And what will not send its projectile through walls and for miles.
To me it comes down to using what you will have on you. Most of us readily grab a pistol when going to check a noise. Taking a shotgun or rifle... probably not so much.

Sure if I KNOW a threat with a rifle or shotgun is going to be waiting I want a rifle or shotgun. But if I know this I should really not be investigating. More likely its a raccoon or possum passing by (at least at my house).
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Old April 27, 2017, 11:52 AM   #29
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If it's a home defence situation and you don't shoot but have the drop on the crook, there is nothing more intimidating than looking down the barrel of a 12 gauge. It seems to get their attention better and they tend to obey better.
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Old April 27, 2017, 12:47 PM   #30
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It all depends on where you live and who else is in the home.
You should put together several plans on who goes where and who does what. If you have young ones in the home it is best to get to them rather than trying to move them when they are half asleep. Someone needs to call in to emergency dispatch on a home invasion. Everyone who can be, should be armed and in a safe place with a door. Use your intercom to tell the intruder what you want them to know if you don't have an intercom then stay quiet - don't give up your position by yelling. If they enter the room you can be certain they are not there to bring gifts, yell for them to drop everything and not to move. If they move in a threatening manner shoot them. Let the emergency folks know that one bad guy is down and being held at gun point. Make sure the emergency folks identify any officers as they show up. Follow the advice of the cops but tell them you are willing to cooperate but you are too upset right now and you will be at the station in the morning with your lawyer to answer questions and file a report. Call your lawyer and let him know that you need his guidance.
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Old April 27, 2017, 01:02 PM   #31
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If it's a home defence situation and you don't shoot but have the drop on the crook, there is nothing more intimidating than looking down the barrel of a 12 gauge. It seems to get their attention better and they tend to obey better
First hand experience, citation, or hypothetical?
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Old April 27, 2017, 01:09 PM   #32
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For my contribution to this thread, go read post #7 by Wyosmith again.
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Old April 27, 2017, 01:47 PM   #33
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Then, I'll ask you, Mark:

From his post:
Quote:
There are currently about 218 Nations States within the UN. ALL of them have armies.
Guess how many of them issue handguns as standard issue arms to their infantry.
And my original response:

Quote:
And that has what to do with HD?
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Old April 27, 2017, 03:56 PM   #34
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I'll ask the OP, what is your shooting experience with the three platforms and which do you think you handle the best?
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Old April 27, 2017, 03:56 PM   #35
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Well Krag I would agree with you almost 100%........almost.
(I find in reading your posts that I nearly always do)
What counter points I would make in this subject are these:

As you say a handgun is far faster to get that 1st shot off with. I agree.

And as you say, if you are playing cops and robbers, and you are clearing a room the handgun is far easier to use. I agree!

But in the situation that you are standing your ground inside your own home, the phone and "9-11" is going to put the bad guy in the defensive position as soon as the cops show up, and in such situations I see little reason to clear the room. Let the cops do that.

I favor the ambush (as I am 100% sure you would too, knowing your military background) If you control the battle ground would you want to walk point if you could ambush?

Unless we sleep wearing the handgun we still have to pic it up.

So picking up a rifle or shot gun is going to take about the same amount of time as picking up a handgun. And there is no reason you can't do both, first the handgun, and if you need to fire before you pick up your shotgun or rifle, you can.

But even at 10 feet, if I could choose to shoot an enemy with a 45ACP or 357 mag, or my 270, I will use my 270. I have shot deer a few times jumping up within 10-15 feet and hit them every time. I have yet to miss one. I am sure I can do it with a man too.

In my case it would be an AK or an FAL not the 270.

Now I don't live in town and my closest neighbor is over 600 yards from me, and my next closest neighbor is over 1.5 miles from me so I have to say my situation is not common. I understand that and I am considering it.
I would not recommend someone go out and buy a full power 308 Military rifle for a "home-gun." There are probably better options.

But I would tell them I would choose a 308 auto over any handgun, even if they lived in town if those 2 guns were the only 2 to choose from.

With the correct ammo, the 308 is going to be a better option then a handgun (I believe) because the chances of a hit on target are far better with the rifle then a handgun so the number of rounds fired is likely to be far less. First from the aspect of practical accuracy, and next from the aspect of the severity of the wound inflicted.
With light HP bullet the penetration factor of "collateral damage" is not much different than many handgun rounds either. Especially if the rifle round hit the enemy which is about 10 times more likely then if he's shot at with a handgun. An expert handgunner will do much better, but I have not seen one yet that is better at it then he is with a rifle.

I have done drills with students many times to show this point. I'd bet you have too.

Place a small tire with a cardboard inside and hang it between 2 trees on a rope and let students fire at it with a rifle and any handgun they choose from a distance of 10 feet, 10 round per student. Swing the target hard and as fast as you can. Faster than a man can run. Let them fire from different angles too.

I am 100% sure you will see the same results I have seen.

This is a drill I have set up and used for about 30 years, and at no time in those 30 years has a group of students done as well with handguns let alone better. No group of civilians, no group of cops and no group of military personal, including USMC Force Recon and US Navy SEALS. One group of SEALS in 1985 came close to a tie, but even in that drill the rifles beat the handguns. And there is no question about the wounds produced by center rifle rifles in comparison to handguns. 357 mags, 41 mags and 44 mags are far better than most people think, but still as a class they don't beat rifle rounds. At best they can come close to matching them.

One member here asked what infantry issue of rifles has what to do with Home Deference. Not a bad question. I would answer "everything".

But a better question would be "what difference does it make if you are fighting from within a home you own or one you don't own"? The answer is "nothing". Combat is combat. A life and death fight is just that, and the battlefield is the battlefield. If a rifle can work against massed enemies in organized formations it is not less effective against single enemies who are not trained or organized.

The thing about Home Defense is that the one that lives in that home has advantages of knowledge. You can lock doors, call for help, set up an ambush and use concealment that the intruder doesn't know about. But the home owner has to have that mindset. The fighter is the weapon. The gun is the tool.

It's FAR less about the gun and far more about the tactics used, and how well they are used.

2or3 sniper teams armed with bolt actions against 100 enemy troops armed with full auto AKs seems like a very off-set fight, but if the snipers can set the place and choose the battlefield, and command the access and egress of the enemy, I could almost feel sorry for the 100.

The 100 will probably loose that fight. Because of the control of the engagement.

Fighting in your own home should be the same.

If you do that any gun is probably OK, just some may be easier to use and their rounds more effective.

Would you not agree?
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Old April 28, 2017, 01:48 PM   #36
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Quote:
They're easy to maneuver inside tight spaces, can tuck it up tight for retention, and it leaves a hand free if need be
Also, it's much easier to hide a pistol from the kids, and keep it handy where it needs to be when you need it to be there.
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Old April 28, 2017, 07:04 PM   #37
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Quote:
A handgun is vastly superior when you get 'jumped" and are in a situation at close range where you can't get to a rifle or shotgun. it's for the emergency that you can't see coming.
So like in a home invasion type situation?
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Old April 28, 2017, 07:42 PM   #38
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A handgun on your person is likely better than a long gun in the safe. But if I have time, I'm getting the long gun.
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Old April 28, 2017, 08:10 PM   #39
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How about the best of all worlds, introducing the TXAZ/Barrett Ultimate Home Defender:

Maximum rifle firepower, 12,000 ft lbs
Shorter than an AK-47
Able to shatter all eardrums and windows in a single shot

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Old April 28, 2017, 08:24 PM   #40
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Will that scope fit a 1911 for self defense in the home?
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Old April 28, 2017, 09:16 PM   #41
K_Mac
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TXAZ if you mount a 3 D cell maglight on it you're good to go! Do you have a good holster suggestion?
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Old April 28, 2017, 09:37 PM   #42
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Yes. I keep a rifle near the back door. If I have to go outside, a rifle is much more useful. I live on a farm and something always needs shooting. I also keep a shotgun upstairs. A staircase defended with a shotgun is nearly impossible to assault successfully without losing a few people. I also keep handguns in several places for times that I'm sure that sound was nothing but I have to go check anyway.
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Old April 28, 2017, 09:52 PM   #43
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K Mac, I'm thinking Kydex. You?
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Old April 28, 2017, 10:04 PM   #44
Danoobie
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I use a pistol.

Maybe I'm the only person here who doesn't wander the
insides of their home with a loaded rifle constantly at hand.

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Old April 28, 2017, 10:58 PM   #45
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TXAZ, I think kydex is probably the way to go. Leather, even horsehide, would soon be just a little damp with sweat under the weight of this beauty I'm afraid.
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Old April 28, 2017, 11:40 PM   #46
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A handgun is the most maneuverable, but most difficult to hit with. Lowest stopping power too. However, it's easy to have one on your person at all times.

The spread of the shotgun is irrelevant inside a house. The rule of thumb is that buckshot spreads about an inch per yard of travel, although this can vary a lot depending on shotgun, choke, and load. Regardless, it's not going to spread much more than a hand's-breadth inside a house.

The main benefits of a shotgun are high stopping power and low price. This is at the expense of low capacity and difficulty in obtaining proficiency. High recoil can make it hard to learn, although reduced recoil loads are available. A pump shotgun also allows the possibility of short stroking under duress.

Carbines potentially offer size, weight, capacity, precision, recoil, and arguably reliability advantages over a shotgun.

Pistol caliber carbines would seem to be a very reasonable option, except there aren't many of them and they tend to be fairly unpopular.
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Old April 29, 2017, 07:23 AM   #47
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Home burglaries also happen when we're not at home, so make sure your rifle/shotgun is secured so it's not used against you when you return home. Handgun for me.
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Old April 29, 2017, 10:14 AM   #48
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Wyosmith has it exactly right.

A rifle is easiest to hit with, hits with the most authority, and with just a little attention to ammo selection, less of a liability from a miss or over-penetration. (A common misconception that I see at least one poster in this thread believes. Reduced penetration in building materials from AR-15- power carbines, when compared to pistol-caliber subguns, is just one of several reasons most LE special response teams have gone to AR-15s or similar platforms.)

Additionally, modern intermediate power carbines are much easier to train up with than shotguns or handguns, and much easier to fire quick follow-up shots with acceptable accuracy.

Now, if a TFL member does most of their shooting with a shotgun, then a shotgun is probably the best HD choice for them, just because of training. If a shooter only has a shotgun, it can work fine, despite not being optimal.

Ultimately, the biggest difference is not between a carbine or rifle and some other gun. The big difference is between having a firearm and not having one. Train with what you have, make good plans (calls, contact info, fire extinguishers, insurance, lighting, transportation, water, food), and be happy.

If you have the time and free funds to get a good modern carbine, AR-15 carbines are at an all-time low price when adjusted for inflation. Paying your utility bill is probably more important, but now is a good time to buy one, if you can.

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Old April 29, 2017, 10:38 AM   #49
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As an example, here is a PSA 16" AR-15 upper and a lower kit, delivered to your door for $350. The buyer just needs a stripped lower receiver and about an hour assembly time to have their own modern carbine, for maybe $500 investment.

Adjusted for inflation, that would only be $304 in 1994 money.
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Old April 29, 2017, 10:46 AM   #50
Glenn E. Meyer
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I'll ask the OP again (and this is a big hint):

Quote:
I'll ask the OP, what is your shooting experience with the three platforms and which do you think you handle the best?
Buying guns without having experience with them in the proposed use or training with them is just hot air and a silly practice. Yeah, let's discuss stopping power some more.

The utility of each platform is well known as are their handicaps in the home scenario.
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