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Old May 1, 2017, 10:56 AM   #26
OldMarksman
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Let me know if ya'll find one cause the rule of 3 sounds pretty sound to me (on average) source or not.
Really?

A second and a half between shots when the target assailant is trying to kill the defender at close range?
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Old May 1, 2017, 11:27 AM   #27
JoeSixpack
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I always took the 3 seconds to either
1. include draw time
2. time attacker stops

not necessarily the total time between first and last shot

although I will say the shooting I heard there was about a 1 second pause between shots.

But it was not "close up" the guy came out of his house and found someone breaking into their car and shot them.
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Old May 1, 2017, 11:28 AM   #28
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If someone is taking offensive action against you within three feet and you are capable of drawing and employing your weapon because of your practice in doing so without an opponent you are doing VERY well.
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Old May 1, 2017, 11:35 AM   #29
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But it was not "close up" the guy came out of his house and found someone breaking into their car and shot them.
Good way to lose one's clean record, personal fortune, and personal freedom.
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Old May 1, 2017, 11:39 AM   #30
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The main facts are this... We have no idea what distance we will be required to draw and fire a CCW pistol, at all!
Exactly.
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Old May 1, 2017, 12:05 PM   #31
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For defensive practice I use the "El Presidente", falling plates, steel challenge and 3 gun. Of the four the "El Presidente" is the most challenging. I am concerned that in a defensive situation I may be training myself to wait for the buzzer to go off...
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Old May 1, 2017, 12:26 PM   #32
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Danoobie I've looked carefully and can find no evidence that the FBI has made any statements that your threesome rule is not true. I guess that settles it.
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Old May 1, 2017, 02:24 PM   #33
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I am concerned that in a defensive situation I may be training myself to wait for the buzzer to go off...
It is only partly for that reason that I strongly recommend the I. C. E. PDN Combat Focus Shooting course.
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Old May 4, 2017, 08:37 AM   #34
Brit
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Two of my students, as Armed Security Officers, in Toronto Canada, fired their revolvers, in self defense.

Case #!, Two uniformed men, driving a car, unmarked, the reason they were armed (Canadian Law) they were Technicians, with dozens of keys, that opened the ATM's owned by Universal ATM (Now sold) I trained these young people, and Re-Qls each year.

It started with a Road Rage incident, a bumped bumper. Culminating in a young man, approaching the armed driver of the Security Car, with the major portion of a pint glass (the one with a handle) that he had hit the unarmed employee, who had not received his carry permit yet. Now just a handle, with the shattered, sharp edges facing out. He was sipping rum out of this pint glass, driving down the road.

Mike the Guard, had drawn his S&W Mod 65 6 shot revolver, loaded with plus P 158g Semi Wad-cutter lead rounds. At eye level, stated our challenge.
"Stop, I have a Gun!" I know, a bit sissy. At 6 feet, he fired one round.

This round went right through the body, via the heart. It caused an instant stop, hence the second round (I taught always fire two) was not fired.

This round was found on the gurney when the cloths were cut off.

The second shooting. A Brinks Guard, who I used to train. Had his bag of cash, snatched by a first time offender, armed with a Colt 45, loaded with re-loads, 200g Semi-Wad-cutters (he was a target shooter) the Brinks employee, now is fighting eyes full of spray oven cleaner! But still chasing this man. And his bag of cash.

Coming round the corner of a small structure, he is confronted by the robber, taking cover behind a telegraph pole, aiming his gun at him, immediately going prone, he fired a double tap from his S&W Revolver.

He said he distinctly heard my Liverpool accent yelling "Front Sight, Front Sight" And I was not there. The distance from robber to Guard, 20 yards.

One round still going! One hitting lower body, end result, a Colostomy Bag fitted.

The round the bad guy fired, hit ground broke up, a piece of it entered left leg of the Brinks employee, small injury.

So my two shootings one at, 6' and the other, 20 yards? Makes no sense?
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Old May 4, 2017, 04:26 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by brit
So my two shootings one at, 6' and the other, 20 yards? Makes no sense?
What makes no sense?

One case was a shooting with the attacker closing the distance with a contact weapon, the other was a guard paid to risk his life to protect Brink's money. He had to chase after the fleeing robber to get within 20 yards of him and trade shots. Any private citizen doing the same would be crucified.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/...e_depot_s.html

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Tatiana Duva-Rodriguez thought she was doing the right thing when she pulled out her pistol and fired at a pair of shoplifters as they fled from a Home Depot store near Detroit. She wasn't, at least in the eyes of the law.

On Wednesday (Dec. 9), she was sentenced to 18 months of probation. And the judge stripped the 46-year-old woman of her concealed gun permit.

Duva-Rodriguez didn't manage to stop the shoplifters when she squeezed off several rounds outside the Auburn Hills store on Oct. 6, although she did flatten one of their tires.
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Old May 4, 2017, 04:34 PM   #36
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In Washington state a civilian can legally use deadly force in the attempt to stop a felony in progress. As I understand it the action is "in defense of the state". Would I do the same thing? NO! Would I advise anyone else to do it? NO! I suggest keeping it to self defense and let the police defend the state.
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Old May 4, 2017, 09:38 PM   #37
Brit
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45 Auto.

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One case was a shooting with the attacker closing the distance with a contact weapon, the other was a guard paid to risk his life to protect Brink's money. He had to chase after the fleeing robber to get within 20 yards of him and trade shots. Any private citizen doing the same would be crucified.
It seems that we have the only comment on a post that does not suit the closed minds of some of our readers, has to be negative?

Democrats anyone?

We are discussing distances of real live gun fights! To make these two relevant?

You are chasing some one who has stolen your infant child? To explain the 20 yards.

Or the road rage, could have happened in Orlando. 6 feet!

It doesn't really matter, just think of the actual distance between individuals shooting. 6' and 20 yds. That is all I tried to bring forward.

And further more, good hits. Both two hands on the revolvers, both aimed shots, eye level, use of sights.

How many reports are we seeing, multiple shots fired, and misses?

Is this something we need to address?
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Old May 12, 2017, 08:14 PM   #38
ken grant
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Questions

I posted about shooting used shot shells scattered on the berm and shooting from the draw one handed.

Now a friend gave me about 50 full man sized silhouette paper targets and I want to see how my other shooting at the shells compare and what level I have reached.

All shots will be from the draw and at different levels . 1/4 hip , 1/2 hip , 3/4 hip and nose level.
What should each distance be for the different levels and what kind of groups should I expect to be considered reasonable ?

BTW - I am not an expert , just an old guy trying to improve my defensive skills.
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Old May 13, 2017, 05:22 AM   #39
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What should each distance be for the different levels and what kind of groups should I expect to be considered reasonable ?
The distances should be whatever you want them to be, and don't worry about "groups" as long as they are in the "kill zone".

I'm sure some "expert" will be along soon to say that's wrong.
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Old May 13, 2017, 07:36 AM   #40
AK103K
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The distances should be whatever you want them to be, and don't worry about "groups" as long as they are in the "kill zone".
I agree here. Too many people get hung up on the group thing. That tends to take care of itself as you progress, and we aren't talking shooting for score here, just trying to make reasonably good hits on demand. While some are better than others, "any" hit on the other guy is good for you.

I would suggest pushing the distance beyond what you might think it should be. You'll learn more and I think youll be surprised at how far youre still putting them in there.

Id also incorporate movement as you draw into things too. I think thats more important than many seem to think.

I think the big advantage to using the photo type targets is, they help get your head in the game and condition you to think about where the shots need to go on the body, as opposed to simply COM, which isnt always where you might think it is. Body position and angle of the shot, can all change that, and if youre moving, is constantly changing.

Anymore too, Ive been putting a lot more focus on head shots, especially at closer ranges. They really arent that hard to quickly make at reasonable distances, and to me, make more sense.
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Old May 13, 2017, 07:54 AM   #41
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Somewhere, (can't remember exactly), there was a very interesting demonstration about how good a sight picture is really necessary for self defense.
According to the video, it doesn't have to be a very good one to get effective results.
The person doing the demonstration had a camera mounted so as to be able to see the sights on the pistol.
Even when they were noticeably off center, the hits on a IDPA target at about seven yards were still in the A zone.
Plenty good enough for self defense.
The conclusion was to spend more practice on the draw time and trigger control than worrying about shooting tight groups.
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Old May 13, 2017, 08:04 AM   #42
AK103K
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You really dont need any sights at all, and at distances, many would not think possible.

What you do need though, is the practice shooting that way, so your brain gets the various indexes recorded. You may not physically and consciously see the sights, but your brain uses other inputs to accomplish the same thing as sighted fire.

It all takes regular practice though if you hope to get to where you can do it without thought.
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Old May 13, 2017, 08:15 AM   #43
g.willikers
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^^^
Yessir.
As I get older and the eyes get less dependable, using instinct or point shooting has proven quite reliable.
As you say, practicing with less dependency on the sights can work very well.
Mostly it takes confidence that it will, and working on the form and presentation that allows it to work.
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Old May 13, 2017, 11:18 AM   #44
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You should always start close to your target when learning to shoot instinctively. It is more important to hit the target and build confidence in your technique than to have small groups. 3 to 10 feet is good for the first few shots. As you find that your shots are grouping well move the target a few more feet away. Instinctive shooting is done when your assailant is close enough that he can take, or interfere with, your gun. At 3 to 5 feet you can lose your gun if you extend it to use the sights. At that range it is fairly easy to train yourself to hit the proper area on a 3/4 silhouette combat target from the hip. As the range increases you can determine when you can extend your gun and use the sights. It is also possible to use your gun in holds that are between pure instinctive and pure sight shots. Practice is your best friend, so practice at different ranges and with different holds.
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Old May 27, 2017, 07:01 PM   #45
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statistical averages do play a "part" in defensive methodology but you cant predict if your gun fight is going fall within the statistical norm or not. I think 25 yards is a better threshold than the whole 3-3-3 mantra. Why focus on less skill as opposed to more skill.. that's just not very constructive. Now, if you have some physical limitation that prohibits you from training at certain distances, I can certainly understand the need for a limited or modified training method.
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