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Old February 6, 2017, 08:55 PM   #1
ADClope
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Is this a correct crimp on 223 for FCD?

Hi Guys,

First time using the FCD, and from everything I've read it is easy to over do it, so I set it to where it just started to make an impression and then left it, but I want to check with you guys as you've undoubtedly seen plenty of these before. How do you know if it's too far? Alternatively, how do you know when you need to apply more? It looked like it was just catching the edge of the case mouth, but maybe that's okay? I trimmed them all so that they were 1.750, or less, if they didn't need trimming.

I tried to get a picture of it, but it was kind of difficult to get the camera to focus that closely.

Thank you

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Old February 6, 2017, 09:04 PM   #2
rg1
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OK but heavier than necessary. Plus don't think the bullet is seated deep enough and you're crimping outside the bottom of the cannelure and deforming the bullet below the cannelure. Looks like Hornady 55 FMJ ?? Seat from 2.200" to 2.220" or mid-cannelure at the edge of the case mouth. May not be too heavy if you get the cannelure at the best place to crimp ??
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Old February 6, 2017, 09:34 PM   #3
TMD
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Way over crimped which will deform the bullet and degrade accuracy. And FWIW I dont crimp any of my rifle loads for bolt guns or AR's. Bullet setback has never been an issue with proper neck tension
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Old February 6, 2017, 09:42 PM   #4
KEYBEAR
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Looks ok but I would seat just a little more .
Crimp is not always the same hunting loads need more target less and if shooting a auto(AR) a good crimp . It does look like the crimp is a little heavy not a real bad thing but does not help the brass live a long life .

You need to think what you will doing with the ammo . If the ammo is going to be used in a hunting rifle it will take a beating so needs a heavy crimp . Most target ammo will not see a lot of ruff and tumble life so a heavy crimp may not be a good thing .
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Old February 7, 2017, 05:57 AM   #5
Nosler guy
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The cann adds more than enough friction on its own without crimping but if you really feel the need then go for it. Usually bullets are seated where the neck meets the top of the cann. Neck tension has a big impact on velocity and accuracy, usually negatively if you read up on some literature from the pros. Crimping adds extra neck tension and "might help" from pushing the bullet in the case and spilling powder in your chamber in the event of what I call a slam jam, where the round misfeeds in an autoloader and smacks the chamber lug. Unless you set up your crimp die exactly the same and all of your brass is exactly the same length and has exactly the same neck wall thickness crimping adds an extra variable, and with that comes more inconsistencies. Imo best reserved for pistol ammo.

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Old February 7, 2017, 09:47 AM   #6
ADClope
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Thank you all very much for the replies. I see what you're saying about the cannelure. It was my understanding that you didnt need to place the mouth directly at the top of the cannelure which would give me about a 2.225" OAL. I was worried that was too short of a COL when the manual gives a max of 2.260". Bullet weight is 62 gr.

Also, in regards to the crimp, here is that same round (mine, on the right) that I showed in the first picture sitting next to a factory Remington 55 grain. The factory crimp, to me looks more aggressive than the one I applied. So if my crimp is "way overdone" then are all factory rounds way overcrimped as well? Honest question.

To the point of neck tension alone. I was reading last night that the standard for M193 is 35 lbs, so if it can hold 35 lbs without set back, that's fine according to the standard. M855 was something like 45 lbs. I tested these rounds (without a crimp) and the ones I tested held 45 lbs without movement. So this would seem to be enough, but I'm also sure there is discrepancy between cases, and just because a few held that tension, doesn't mean they all will.

Again, I appreciate all of the responses, I appreciate the instruction and direction.

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Old February 7, 2017, 11:12 AM   #7
Bayou
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You will find many opinions on whether rifle rounds that do not feed in a tube should be, or need to be, crimped at all for accuracy purposes.

I fall in the chorus that does not crimp rifle rounds except those that are tubular fed - 30-30, 44 mag, etc.

Thanks,

Bayou
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Old February 8, 2017, 01:52 AM   #8
Nosler guy
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Factory ammo is almost always crimped mostly for liability reasons and longevity, as well as the hazards of shipping where the ammo gets banged around on its journey half way across the country. For the handloader the need to crimp a rifle round is very specific and is usually centered around the need to increase initial engraving pressures and getting more consistent powder ignition i.e. Ball powder etc.


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Old February 8, 2017, 09:01 AM   #9
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Never had a .223 load that needed any crimp in my HBAR Colt AR. Some in depth testing out to 300 yds. satisfied me that any crimp degraded accuracy. YMMV, Rod
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Old February 10, 2017, 10:41 AM   #10
jetinteriorguy
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That looks just a little heavier than necessary but should be ok enough not to bother pulling them down. I use just a kiss of crimp an my rifle shoots MOA when I'm up to it.
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Old February 10, 2017, 12:21 PM   #11
IMtheNRA
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With that heavy crimp, I'd be concerned about potentially buckling the shoulder on the case.

Accuracy degraded when I experimented with any amount of crimp on my .223 ammo.
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Old February 10, 2017, 12:51 PM   #12
rg1
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Couple reasons I don't like the Lee Factory Crimp die. One, if you ever want to pull bullets with an impact puller it will take 15-20 whacks to remove the bullet versus 5-7 with roll crimped bullets. Not much of an issue with collet pullers but it takes a little more clamping pressure to grip and pull the bullets with factory crimps. Two, is that when reloading the squeezed factory crimp remains in the neck and will not size out. I do prefer to crimp cannelured bullet but prefer a light roll standard crimp. I've read more posts that crimping degrades accuracy but some others that swear it improves accuracy in their rifles?
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Old February 10, 2017, 04:13 PM   #13
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OP, I'm a little on the "slightly too much crimp" side. But I'm interested in your statement about holding 35lbs compression without movement. Can I ask the source you were reading for that information?
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Old February 10, 2017, 11:02 PM   #14
zeke
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While I use the lfc on 223, am doing it very lightly just ensure no edges left sticking out. Prefer to use case neck tension to hold 223 bullets, and seat the bullet out to max length for the bullet/rifle combination.
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Old February 11, 2017, 06:50 AM   #15
30Cal
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Mil-C-Whatevernumber would provide the criteria for the neck tension stuff...


If you crimp at all, make it subtle. As noted a bunch of times, less is better for accuracy. And, if you watch the forums, it's about once a week where someone crimps their handloads to the point where they won't feed.

The factory uses a severely heavyhanded crimp. Who knows what inspections they use along the way or what their reject rate is prior to it reaching the shipping dock.


IMHO, crimp does nothing to improve the reliability of your loads. The only thing you can do with that crimp die is to increase the chances of a FTF.
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Old February 11, 2017, 12:55 PM   #16
jetinteriorguy
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You can't buckle the shoulder with a heavy crimp, it's a collet type crimp. It squeezes the neck in a collet, it's not like a taper crimp die.
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Old February 11, 2017, 02:08 PM   #17
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Looks like you are using a factory crimper from LEE yes it is more than you need all you need is a very light crimp jest where you can see it. Looks like you are setting the bullet out some why not use the channeler for your crimp line that is what it for.
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Old February 11, 2017, 02:43 PM   #18
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Why crimp a 223 never had to

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Old February 11, 2017, 03:32 PM   #19
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Not getting involved with the "crimp vs. no crimp" argument, but I'd say the crimps shown are too heavy. If I were to crimp my .223/5.56 ammo I would seat the bullet to where the case mouth is slightly below (.010") the cannalure's forward edge and lightly push the case mouth into the cannalure. (but in actuality I don't crimp my .223/5.56, 7.62x39 [SKS]
or my 30-06 [Garand] ammo for my semi-autos)...
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Old February 11, 2017, 06:32 PM   #20
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I'm not an expert as I've only been loading .223 rem for about three years, but if those were my bullets I'd say that was too much crimp. I crimp cannelured bullets only, and only a light/medium light crimp at that.

This is probably the long way around the barn, but how I established the amount of crimp was to crimp a dummy bullet (no powder or primer), then make a 1/4 turn on the die and crimp another, and so forth. I then pulled each bullet so I could examine how much deformation, if any, was evident on each bullet, using my calipers. Once I saw deformation of the bullet, I backed the FCD off about 1/8 turn and checked that bullet. For my bullets, I had to back the FCD off about another tenth of a turn.

And to whoever stated that they can pull a crimped .223 round in 15-20 whacks; you're good. It usually takes me between 30-40 whacks, which is why I bought a collet puller last year. My right triceps was getting too big from all the whacking.
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Old February 11, 2017, 07:47 PM   #21
rg1
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Pulling bullets that are crimped with the factory crimp die is a pain. That's one reason I broke two impact pullers hammering on the concrete and spilling powder on the floor. I too bought an RCBS collet puller but no longer use a factory crimp die. Kicked myself for not buying one years sooner. It seems like the light .223 bullets take a lot of pounding to get the crimped brass out of the cannelure with Lee factory crimps. If I crimp it's a light roll crimp. Like mentioned it'll wear your arm out and break your impact puller removing many factory crimped rounds. I once did a lot of 300 Lee factory crimped pulls with the impact puller. I bought my Lee factory crimp die years ago when they were first introduced. It's been in a drawer for many years. A chore to impact pull factory crimped bullets.

Last edited by rg1; February 11, 2017 at 07:59 PM.
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