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Old November 21, 2013, 12:01 AM   #26
JohnKSa
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Tactical reload can be useful in a combat scenario...
That's my conclusion too. I can't say for certain that it's not useful at all outside of a military/military style combat situation, but I can't come up with any reasonable scenario that doesn't fit that mold where a tactical reload can be justified without the use of tortured logic.
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Others mentioning the tac reload for after the primary incident is over is a good idea, once you've assessed no immediate threat.
Justifying that requires that there is simultaneously no threat and that a threat exists.

If there's no threat then it doesn't matter how one reloads. If there is a threat then one needs to reload as rapidly as possible and dropping a partially loaded mag is of no consequence.

It's only when there is a threat and there is no threat simultaneously that it makes sense to keep the partially loaded mag (because of the threat) and take your time doing the reload (because there is no threat).
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Old November 21, 2013, 01:00 AM   #27
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Only time I do tact reloads is in IDPA match when it is required and it is not that hard to catch your mag while holding the replacement in your left hand as well. All other times I do a speed reload, by the time I hit the mag release with my right thumb, my left hand is already bring the replacement mag to the mag well, hit the slide release and your back in business, takes about 1 second to reload.

IDPA will only allow 10 rounds per mag, so you are forced to do a mag exchange during any one stage (16 rounds minimum into 8 targets) a stage will last anywhere from 11 to 25 seconds even with the mag exchange. Quite a few people do it without any problems at all.

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I pick up my mags from the ground when it is all over, as do most people. In a tact reload you can not let the mag hit the ground and it goes right into my left coat pocket while I am still shooting. Both are really easy to do if you practice.
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Old November 21, 2013, 07:40 AM   #28
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That's my conclusion too. I can't say for certain that it's not useful at all outside of a military/military style combat situation, but I can't come up with any reasonable scenario that doesn't fit that mold where a tactical reload can be justified without the use of tortured logic.
Tortured logic?

I perform tactical reloads as part of my training. I'm proficient. It's a skill I maintain as an option to restore my pistol to its highest state of battle-readiness when time and conditions permit.

Quote:
If there's no threat then it doesn't matter how one reloads.
If I'm going to reload, when time and conditions permit, then I don't want to drop a partially loaded magazine onto asphalt/concrete where it might break and become useless.
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Old November 21, 2013, 09:42 AM   #29
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For what's its worth, my platoon sergeant always said that "tactical reloads" were a great way to wind up with a bunch of half empty magazines at a bad time.
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Old November 21, 2013, 12:26 PM   #30
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Tortured logic?
I perform tactical reloads as part of my training. I'm proficient. It's a skill I maintain as an option to restore my pistol to its highest state of battle-readiness when time and conditions permit.
In fairness, you really didn't answer the challenge of "tortured logic". Stating that you do it as a part of your training does not provide any logic as to why it is necessary to be especially proficient at tactical reloads. Similarly, offering that's it's a skill, maintained as an option, doesn't really speak to those questions of necessity or priority.

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If I'm going to reload, when time and conditions permit, then I don't want to drop a partially loaded magazine onto asphalt/concrete where it might break and become useless.
I would submit that in any case where a fast reload is necessary, worrying about the mag being ejected (and whether you damage it) is very low on the list of priorities. The price of a $35 magazine is insignificant in that context.

If time and conditions are such that you can safely worry about possibly damaging that magazine, then there isn't any necessity for speed in that case.
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Old November 21, 2013, 01:14 PM   #31
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Stating that you do it as a part of your training does not provide any logic as to why it is necessary to be especially proficient at tactical reloads.
A Tactical Reload is an integrated part of my weapon manipulation skills that are common between my handgun and AR - integrated manipulation skills that include loading, unloading, reloading and clearing stoppages - all of which use common processes and movements to minimize decision-making, increase efficiency and can be performed quickly.

Quote:
Similarly, offering that's it's a skill, maintained as an option, doesn't really speak to those questions of necessity or priority.
It's an option I employ when I make a decision that I want to quickly restore my weapon to full battle-readiness status. The ONLY difference in time between a Tactical Reload and a Combat Reload is the fraction of a second it takes to manually remove the partially depleted magazine before inserting and seating the fresh magazine.

Quote:
I would submit that in any case where a fast reload is necessary, worrying about the mag being ejected (and whether you damage it) is very low on the list of priorities. The price of a $35 magazine is insignificant in that context.
In any case where my weapon doesn't fire when I press the trigger I first perform tap/rack (because in the heat of battle I don't know if I've experienced a stoppage or an empty magazine and it's quicker to perform immediate actions than to diagnose the problem), then progress to a Combat Reload when time and conditions permit.
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Old November 21, 2013, 01:53 PM   #32
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This.


You won't know if you're on 1-2 rounds or 7-8 rounds. I know a lot of magazines have the numbers, and Glock has it 1 by 1. ex: 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, etc. No need to and not good to lock your vision on that though, so no. I was taught to top off when cover is available and taken. Never know when they're going to be more threats coming or if those threats were idle the whole time and were overlooked. It's much more swift to reload during that quick down time session (if the even is one) than to engage and run dry only to attempt a reload while being engaged by the threat.

Hope that makes sense.

However, what I quoted holds the most truth. You won't know.
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Old November 21, 2013, 02:00 PM   #33
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I am honestly NOT trying to just be argumentative, but ...

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A Tactical Reload is an integrated part of my weapon manipulation skills that are common between my handgun and AR - integrated manipulation skills that include loading, unloading, reloading and clearing stoppages - all of which use common processes and movements to minimize decision-making, increase efficiency and can be performed quickly.
But - again - there is no logic in those statements beyond an un-examined "I think it's a good idea and that's the way I train". It says nothing as to why a Tactical Reload is an important skill, or why and especially speedy one is a necessary skill. Simply stating that it's "... an integrated part of my weapon manipulation skills ...", etc. says nothing about whether it's something useful or important to integrate.

Quote:
It's an option I employ when I make a decision that I want to quickly restore my weapon to full battle-readiness status. ...
If that decision is rational, it follows that a circumstance where a reload needs to be fast, is also a case where retaining the partial magazine is superfluous. Keep in mind my context is that of citizen-self-defense cases. I can see where "top offs" make perfects sense, and are necessary in a protracted military engagement.

Quote:
In any case where my weapon doesn't fire when I press the trigger I first perform tap/rack (because in the heat of battle I don't know if I've experienced a stoppage or an empty magazine and it's quicker to perform immediate actions than to diagnose the problem), then progress to a Combat Reload when time and conditions permit.
If you are at slide-lock, and are tapping/racking ... that seems off. You're concerned about practicing speedy Tactical Reloads (presumably with retention) ... but have not yet acquired the very basic skill of recognizing the feel of slide lock vs. the click or mush of a malfunction? If speed is a concern at all, you've added two steps (tapping and racking) for no benefit.

I agree that a linear-non-diagnostic progression makes far more sense for malfunctions. It appears in this case that you have applied the principle out-of-context to reloads as well. I'm not sure who teaches it the way you've described, but it's comes off odd to me. If there is something I am missing, I am certainly open to instruction.

For my part (and it took me a long, very stubbornly resistant time to get here, lol), I don't see the need for any special kind of specially-named reload, highly optimized for some special set of circumstances or another.

To me a reload is a reload ... you drop the old mag, put another one in there, rack the slide. There is almost (almost) no conceivable "reload problem" that this does not solve. The corner-case of "I shot through the mag in the gun, reloaded, shot a partial and then reloaded, shot to slide lock and now I really wish I had that partial mag" has (probably) never even once happened in a citizen-self-defense incident.

Last edited by zombietactics; November 21, 2013 at 02:44 PM.
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Old November 21, 2013, 02:41 PM   #34
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Time and place.... If done properly

In the below quoted example from a prev post( im thinking military or maybe a contractor based principle recovery)


"Tactical reload can be useful in a combat scenario (nothing we will be in) eg you've fired 12 rounds a few minutes earlier, now you're going to breach the house he/they ran into. You'll want a full magazine, either planing on going through the entire mag laying down suppressive fire if dealing with a fatal funnel or just not having to reload 12 rounds earlier than needed in a close quarters situation."

I disagree with a tactical reload there. It would be "old one out...new one in" as fast as possible and hit the door. Im not going to fiddle around attempting to switch and stow a partial mag

The way to do a tactical reload (IMHO) is to use your rearmost pouch. This leaves the front pouch (the go to for ammo pouch) with a full mag. Think your way thru the tac load so when it hit the fan your front pouch is a full mag.

Just my random thoughts
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Old November 21, 2013, 02:48 PM   #35
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Take this for what it's worth. Just a story from a guy on the internet.

There was a burglary in progress. Husband was out, wife was home alone. Suspect came in through the back window. They leave a 3rd generation Smith and Wesson with a fully loaded magazine that doesn't have a round chambered. So, missy has gone to the range before...Range. Not getting legitimate training but she knows how the weapon functions.

She grabs the gun and heads to the back door, greets the man with a 9mm S&W to which he froze, she racks the slide, racks the slide, racks the slide, by now the guy has already ran. But she kept racking the slide and ejecting casings because she was so scared.

What does this have to do with anything? She wasn't trained, she was just a range bunny.

I hear you, but this similar thing happens to police officers very often with safeties and empty guns.
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Old November 21, 2013, 03:01 PM   #36
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It says nothing as to why a Tactical Reload is an important skill, or why and especially speedy one is a necessary skill.
How about if I find myself in a mall or movie theater mass shooting situation and I've exchanged shots and the bad guy(s) have moved on to easier targets. I may desire to quickly top off my pistol (and retain my partially depleted magazine) before I sprint to an exit in case I encounter a bad guy(s) enroute and have to continue the fight. (In this case I don't want to jettison my partially depleted magazine onto a hard floor where it could burst apart.) I don't have to think about what I'm doing when I perform a Tactical Reload - I just do it because it's as natural to me as as loading my pistol.

Quote:
If you are at slide-lock, and are tapping/racking ... that seems off. You're concerned about practicing speedy Tactical Reloads (presumably with retention) ... but have not yet acquired the very basic skill of recognizing the feel of slide lock vs. the click or mush of a malfunction?
Will I be able to spontaneously diagnose that my trigger felt “mushy” instead of “click” or will I simply diagnose that my pistol didn’t fire when I pressed the trigger?

IS the slide locked open on an empty magazine (mushy trigger)?
IS there a feeding failure (mushy trigger)?
IS there a stovepipe (mushy trigger)?
IS there a doublefeed (mushy trigger)?

All I know is my pistol didn’t fire when I wanted it to and my first immediate action is tap/rack because it is one action that clears many problems. Tap/rack doesn’t take my attention away from the bad guy(s) – I just perform it automatically. If tap/rack fails to get the pistol running then I’m not preoccupied with "fixing" my pistol and my mind is free to deal with my number one problem – to immediately do what I might have to do to keep from being shot, stabbed, bludgeoned, etc., and I may have to defer my next immediate action (Combat Reload) until time and conditions permit. If, during my Combat Reload, I cannot insert the fresh magazine into the pistol then I immediately put the fresh magazine between the ring & pinky fingers of my firing hand, lock open the slide, rip the “depleted” magazine from the gun, cycle the action three times to clear the action, and then complete my Combat Reload.

Last edited by Derbel McDillet; November 21, 2013 at 03:07 PM.
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Old November 21, 2013, 04:04 PM   #37
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How about if I find myself ...
There are an infinite number of marginally possible "what if" scenarios. To use them as the basis of a point of logic is - classically - called "hand waving" or a form of sophistry. It's as easy to imagine a counter example, the point which would be "what is far more likely and and a better basis for analysis?"

We could take the shooting at the Westfield mall in Kenya recently ... a dozen or so terrorists involved. Certainly that could be "a case" for carrying multiple 33-round magazines every time I go to the mall. I think it makes more sense in that unlikely case (which actually happened) to want/need 4/5 33 rounds magazines, than worrying about magazines bursting open (and therefore basing my skill set around that unlikely failure).

In the case you describe, why do you especially worry about the very low possibility of a magazine "bursting apart"? Do you experience magazines bursting apart a lot? I don't, I haven't ever even once, and I often train on hard-surface police ranges made of concrete or hardwood. The worst I've experienced is a couple of rounds popping out in some cases ... no bursting open or destroyed magazines.

Sooo - with due respect - basing a training regimen (and techniques adopted) upon low-probability equipment failures, occurring within low-probability events ... not sure that this is the best way to argue your point. At the very least, you haven't demonstrated a clear advantage for retaining vs. letting them drop.

Quote:
Will I be able to spontaneously diagnose that my trigger felt “mushy” instead of “click” or will I simply diagnose that my pistol didn’t fire when I pressed the trigger?
I don't know how to say this without it coming off snarky, so I'll just say it and note that I'm not trying to be snarky or condescending. I'd hope that you'd at least consider the possibility that recognizing slide-lock by feel is a very common thing. It's not in the same category as "diagnosis" really.

It's not magic and it doesn't feel at all like a failure-to-fire, stovepipe or a feedway stoppage. It's a pretty basic skill, taught effectively in many "level 101" type classes. You don't "get it" immediately, but it takes very little time before it's obvious and unambiguous. It becomes second-nature very, very quickly with just a little work.

The point at which you've reached slide-lock (and still have shooting to do) is a critical moment requiring speed and efficiency. Adding two steps - tapping & racking - at that moment is not speedy or efficient, assuming that you can train to eliminate those steps.

I've observed that it's easy enough to do so.

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Old November 21, 2013, 07:08 PM   #38
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There are an infinite number of marginally possible "what if" scenarios.
Hence I have only two types of reloading techniques for semi-automatics.

The speed reload and the tac-load.

I don't use any administrative reload or reloading with retention.

That way only two things to train with. One for flat out emergency and the other when I think I have time to reload and save the ammo.

And no, my tac-load technique is more-or-less fumble proof (nothing is absolutely fumble proof!) I have posted on other boards how I do my tac-load. It is easier then the one experts use.

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Old November 21, 2013, 07:14 PM   #39
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In the case you describe, why do you especially worry about the very low possibility of a magazine "bursting apart"?
Glock magazines have a plastic baseplate. Drop one that's 1/2 to 3/4 full onto a hard surface from shoulder height and the baseplate has been known to crack at the edge. When this crack happens the magazine spring will burst the floorplate off the magazine. That's not a good thing if I want to keep that magazine and ammo.

Quote:
I'd hope that you'd at least consider the possibility that recognizing slide-lock by feel is a very common thing. It's not in the same category as "diagnosis" really.
How many actual unexpected stoppages (failure to feed, stovepipe, in-line stovepipe, doublefeed) have you experienced during training which interferes with the slide going into battery? I suspect it's probably very few. So how do you KNOW when you "feel" (diagnose) a difference? YOU DON'T KNOW because YOU DON'T HAVE EXPERIENCE in "feeling" and diagnosing the difference between a slide that's out of battery because of an empty magazine or because it's out of battery because of a failure.

When your gun fails to fire what do you do? Do you presume your magazine is empty and stand there like a static cardboard target while you attempt to perform a Combat Reload?

When you misdiagnose it costs you time. Time creates vulnerability. If you incorrectly diagnose (Orient and Decide) then you end up with a fresh magazine in one hand and a jammed pistol in the other hand. How often do you train for that scenario?

A bad guy trying to kill you is an "external problem". A stoppage of your gun is an "internal problem".

The longer you dwell on Orienting and Deciding (diagnosing) the more vulnerable you are. The longer you dwell on an internal problem the longer your attention is diverted from the more important external problem.

The concept of non-diagnostic immediate actions is to short circuit the OODA Loop from "Observe-Orient-Decide-Act" to "Observe-Act". You OBSERVE (sense) that the pistol didn't fire when you expected it to and you ACT to quickly perform a single immediate action (tap/rack) that clears many failures. If tap/rack fails to get the pistol running then your attention isn't sucked into dealing with your internal gun problem. You don't become distracted from the external problem. Your mind is free to immediately deal with the danger. You don't end up standing there like a static cardboard target.

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Old November 21, 2013, 10:26 PM   #40
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If I'm going to reload, when time and conditions permit, then I don't want to drop a partially loaded magazine onto asphalt/concrete where it might break and become useless.
If there's an imminent threat, then it doesn't make sense to reload a gun that doesn't need reloading in the first place. But if you, for some reason, do decide to reload while an imminent threat exists but when you don't actually have to, your priority should still be getting your gun running again as fast as possible. Dropping a magazine should be so low on your list of priorities that it shouldn't even register.

If there's no threat then take your time and reload any way you want. It doesn't matter how you do it nor how long it takes since time isn't an issue.
Quote:
It's an option I employ when I make a decision that I want to quickly restore my weapon to full battle-readiness status.
If you really need to do that (i.e. imminent threat exists), then you also need to do it as fast as possible. If you don't really NEED your weapon to be at full battle-readiness status (i.e. no imminent threat exists) then reload however you want and take as long as you want. If there's no imminent threat it doesn't matter how you reload.
Quote:
The ONLY difference in time between a Tactical Reload and a Combat Reload is the fraction of a second it takes to manually remove the partially depleted magazine before inserting and seating the fresh magazine.
That's not true unless you drop the partially depleted magazine after manually removing it--which would be ludicrous.

You obviously also have to put the magazine away or it wouldn't make any sense at all to remove it manually in the first place. And until you've done that and returned your support hand back to its grip you will be unnecessarily handicapped by having to use your weapon with only one hand, or at the least by having to try to grip the gun and hold onto the magazine at the same time.

From fully ready back to to fully ready (apples to apples comparison) comparing a speed relaod to a tac-reload is more than a "fraction of a second" of difference.
Quote:
How about if I find myself in a mall or movie theater mass shooting situation and I've exchanged shots and the bad guy(s) have moved on to easier targets. I may desire to quickly top off my pistol (and retain my partially depleted magazine) before I sprint to an exit in case I encounter a bad guy(s) enroute and have to continue the fight. (In this case I don't want to jettison my partially depleted magazine onto a hard floor where it could burst apart.) I don't have to think about what I'm doing when I perform a Tactical Reload - I just do it because it's as natural to me as as loading my pistol.
In this scenario there is no imminent threat because "the bad guy has moved on". So reload however you want--with no imminent threat it doesn't matter what you do.

This is very simple from a logical standpoint.

If there IS an imminent threat and you have a running gun, it makes no sense to stop and reload if you don't have to. If you DO have to reload then reload as fast as you can.

If there is NO imminent threat then any technique that's reasonable and that meets whatever personal requirements you can dream up is just fine.

It's only when there IS a threat and there is NO threat simultaneously that it makes sense to keep the partially loaded mag (because of the imminent threat) and take more time than necessary doing the reload (because there is no imminent threat). That's what I mean when I say it takes tortured logic to justify a tac-reload.
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Old November 21, 2013, 11:58 PM   #41
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Anybody change camps if said gun is a revolver? Just wondering..I've seen a few guys that could pick a few empties out and reload very quick. Anyway, good thread.
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Old November 22, 2013, 08:11 AM   #42
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If you really need to do that (i.e. imminent threat exists), then you also need to do it as fast as possible. If you don't really NEED your weapon to be at full battle-readiness status (i.e. no imminent threat exists) then reload however you want and take as long as you want. If there's no imminent threat it doesn't matter how you reload.
Why would I want to perform a Tactical Reload to restore my pistol to its highest condition of battle-readiness after I’ve fired a few shots? Another situation that comes to mind is I may have had to shoot a bad guy in a sketchy part of town (perhaps a Walmart parking lot or gas station). The immediate danger is over. But the bad guy’s homies may show up shortly thereafter or a brazenly hostile crowd gathers before police (or backup) arrive. I’ve personally been in both of these kinds situations (although no shots were fired.)

So when time and situation permit, I may want to perform a Tactical Reload.

Quote:
That's not true unless you drop the partially depleted magazine after manually removing it--which would be ludicrous.
If I were to perform a Combat Reload under the same circumstances then I’d also be dropping a partially loaded magazine onto the ground. Whereas if I were in the middle of a Tactical Reload and danger suddenly appeared then I’d have no problem dropping the partially loaded magazine onto the ground after I seated the fresh one. If this were to happen then the gun might be “down” for a just a fraction of a second longer. I don’t count the time it takes to stow the partially depleted magazine because it doesn’t count as down time for the gun.

Quote:
If there IS an imminent threat and you have a running gun, it makes no sense to stop and reload if you don't have to. If you DO have to reload then reload as fast as you can.
That’s not what I’m arguing. But if you do have to perform a Combat Reload then don’t train yourself to get drawn into your gun problem while you stand there like a cardboard target for the bad guy. Your down gun is a problem but it may be lower priority problem at the moment than immediately reacting to the danger. You don’t want to get shot or stabbed or whatever while you’re reloading. The first rule of a gunfight is to avoid getting shot.

Quote:
If there is NO imminent threat then any technique that's reasonable and that meets whatever personal requirements you can dream up is just fine.
BINGO! When time and situation permit a Tactical Reload is the most efficient method for me because it uses the many of same movements as my other gun manipulations.

Last edited by Derbel McDillet; November 22, 2013 at 08:19 AM.
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Old November 22, 2013, 09:19 AM   #43
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Justifying that requires that there is simultaneously no threat and that a threat exists.

If there's no threat then it doesn't matter how one reloads. If there is a threat then one needs to reload as rapidly as possible and dropping a partially loaded mag is of no consequence.

It's only when there is a threat and there is no threat simultaneously that it makes sense to keep the partially loaded mag (because of the threat) and take your time doing the reload (because there is no threat).
As far as tack reloads in my opinion, shooting to slide lock is my choice. Under the stress of a gun fight reloading at slide lock if needed will be enough of a challenge. In the gun fight I would not want to "assume" and we all know what that spells out to be that it is safe to take my time and perform a tack reload.
Shooting to slide lock is my choice if and when (hopefully never will be needed)
IDPA rules read for the tack/reload with retention when there is a lull in the action. Poppy-cock if you ask me. The only time in real life I will drop a mag with ammo in it if there is a malfunction and that is the only way to clear it.
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Old November 22, 2013, 12:42 PM   #44
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Glock magazines have a plastic baseplate. Drop one that's 1/2 to 3/4 full onto a hard surface from shoulder height and the baseplate has been known to crack at the edge. When this crack happens the magazine spring will burst the floorplate off the magazine. That's not a good thing if I want to keep that magazine and ammo.
So - once again - you're at the mall (your scenario) and have "exchanged shots" with some bad guys, who (oddly weird tactics) simply decide to move on and engage other targets. Somehow you've been "awesome" enough they fear your opposition, but not enough that you require a positive "neutralization".

Your concern at that time is making sure you don't want to break a magazine by dropping it on the floor? THAT is the thing you are worried about?

Please take the following in good humor. We're all friends having a discussion, AFAIK.

I'm a Glock-certified armorer. I've owned Glocks since about the month they came on the market. I still have a couple of no-drop magazines from my first Gen1 Glock 17. I am abusive as hell to my magazines during training and practice, and I train and practice a LOT more than the average person. I've seen a few cracked base plates over the past 25 years. Some were with cheap Korean knockoffs, not Glock OEM, so I don't think that really counts. I've never once seen a Glock magazine fly apart and spill its guts from being dropped to the ground, pavement or floor. Not once. Not ever. I've never even heard of it actually happening "in the wild".

If you are really that worried about it, there are several third-party base plates made of various impact-resistant polymers, hard rubber, aluminum, etc. ... problem solved without having to get weird about it.

I suppose in some broad, theoretical sense, it could happen. Maybe it has happened, but it's very rare. Maybe Bigfoot exists, but I am sure as hell not basing my skill set or training on the notion that he will show up at the mall, lol.

If you have forever to exchange and retain mags, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't do so. I have no idea why it makes sense to practice doing something speedily, for an instance in which you have all the time you need.

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How many actual unexpected stoppages (failure to feed, stovepipe, in-line stovepipe, doublefeed) have you experienced during training which interferes with the slide going into battery? I suspect it's probably very few. So how do you KNOW when you "feel" (diagnose) a difference? YOU DON'T KNOW because YOU DON'T HAVE EXPERIENCE in "feeling" and diagnosing the difference between a slide that's out of battery because of an empty magazine or because it's out of battery because of a failure.
You're making a helluva lot of assumptions here, which is not a wise things to do.

Firstly, you are describing a process called "difference sorting" by which someone determines what something IS by its differences from what it ISN'T. That's not a normal, intuitive mode of recognition, and that's not what is suggested. One learns to recognize "Orange" by being exposed continually to that color, not by being exposed to all the other colors and then concluding that Orange is "the one that's not all the other ones".

Slide lock is encountered regularly, and it's easy to learn to recognize it intuitively. I am familiar with almost every proponent of non-diagnostic methods: Rob Pincus, Gabe Suarez, James Yeager, Clint Smith, Paul Howe, etc. It's a long list and I have trained with many of them. None of them teach a reflexive Tap/Rack in response to slide lock. They teach recognizing slide-lock, and it's a featured part of the course syllabus. It's easily learned by simply doing it.

So, I don't know where this idea of adopting tap/rack on slide-lock as a preferred technique comes from. I would really like to know who teaches it.

Regarding the other point about what stoppages or malfunctions I've personally experienced, that's another case where assumptions are dangerous.

I think I understand where you are coming from. With any modern gun in reasonably well-maintained condition, the standard malfunctions are pretty rare ... far less common than shooting the gun to slide-lock, BTW. There's a point there if you can see it. Should you base your training and skill set around things which almost never happen, or things which happen regularly? Hmmmm.

But keep in mind that I have been at this firearms thing for about 35 years (Glocks 25), and I may have some things at my disposal which aren't common to most.

Among those are things like the aforementioned "no-drop" magazines. I also have mags which won't seat easily, or which have worn followers or springs (which means the slide won't lock back). I have magazines with damaged or worn feed lips, which introduce all sorts of craziness into the mix.

Those magazines are in the "training box" for the purpose of training for worst-case screw ups. Using them (along with dummy rounds), I regularly experience all of the standard malfunctions, and many which are hard to define.

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When your gun fails to fire what do you do? Do you presume your magazine is empty and stand there like a static cardboard target while you attempt to perform a Combat Reload?
I have no idea where the "stand there like a static cardboard target" comment comes from. I have to conclude that you have a very vivid imagination concerning those with whom you disagree.

But let's take the example you give at face value, and let's pretend that one cannot recognize slide-lock intuitively. You've admitted already that malfunctions are rare, i.e "... How many actual unexpected stoppages ... I suspect it's probably very few", and it's obvious that slide-locks are a normal and expected condition of having shot the gun dry.

So, you are firing away and the gun stops going bang. You've never bothered with learning to recognize slide-lock, and you've made it abundantly clear that you have no intention of diagnosing the problem by looking at it. You are proceeding from a condition of almost zero knowledge about the actual condition of the gun. Does it make more sense to reflexively perform a technique designed to correct (what is by your own admission) the least-likely occurance in such a case, or a condition which is normal, common and expected? That's a rhetorical question of course, the answer is obvious, or should be.

That simple logic dictates that even in the case that you cannot recognize slide-lock, you are far more likely to gain an advantage by training to simply reload than to proceed as if there is a malfunction.

But the simple fact is that people can and do learn to recognize slide-lock, as a part of basic instruction, and it's taught by every proponent of non-diagnostic malfunction clearances I can identify.

I do as I have trained to do, and have practiced regularly. I can recognize slide-lock intuitively without fail. I don't waste time on tapping/racking a gun which is clearly empty.

Last edited by zombietactics; November 22, 2013 at 04:02 PM.
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Old November 22, 2013, 04:43 PM   #45
Derbel McDillet
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Quote:
Your concern at that time is making sure you don't want to break a magazine by dropping it on the floor? THAT is the thing you are worried about?
Not really. As I've said time and again in this thread is I may want to restore my pistol to its highest state of battle-readiness when time and situation permit. To quickly do this I simply perform a Tactical Reload and drive-on. No big deal.

Quote:
I've never once seen a Glock magazine fly apart and spill its guts from being dropped to the ground, pavement or floor. Not once. Not ever. I've never even heard of it actually happening "in the wild".
As a former LEO my experience is different than yours.

Quote:
Firstly, you are describing a process called "difference sorting" by which someone determines what something IS by its differences from what it ISN'T. That's not a normal, intuitive mode of recognition...
Obviously you haven't seen this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bby5pOVZJ0

Quote:
One learns to recognize "Orange" by being exposed continually to that color, not by being exposed to all the other colors and then concluding that Orange is "the one that's not all the other ones".
That's all fine and good but I prefer to use a robust technique that increases my probability of success in completing a task quickly in a variety of stressful and possibly unfavorable conditions.

Diagnosing stoppages is not a robust technique. Diagnosing stoppages increases the time it takes to cycle through your OODA Loop. Diagnosing stoppages diverts your attention from the danger.

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Slide lock is encountered regularly, and it's easy to learn to recognize it intuitively.
An as I stated earlier, "slide lock" caused by a stoppage is not encountered regularly and one cannot learn to reliably discern the difference in "feel" because one doesn't acquire sufficient previous experience. In a battle for your life your attention is focused on the danger and the first cue that something's not right with your gun will be when it unexpectedly stops firing for whatever reason.

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So, I don't know where this idea of adopting tap/rack on slide-lock as a preferred technique comes from. I would really like to know who teaches it.
Former Navy SEAL Jeff Gonzales, Trident Concepts - http://www.tridentconcepts.com/

Tap/rack is the immediate action performed whenever the gun stops firing. It's performed intuitively and takes about a second to perform. It's a conditioned response that can quickly clear a multitude of stoppages.

If tap/rack fails to get the gun running then I have one decision to make: Do I have to do something to keep from getting hurt or does the situation allow me to immediately progress to my next immediate action (Combat Reload)? That's the only decision I have to make in that moment in time.

Quote:
With any modern gun in reasonably well-maintained condition, the standard malfunctions are pretty rare ...
Until you incur injury, fatigue, you're in a physical scuffle, or the situation isn't ideal.

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I have no idea where the "stand there like a static cardboard target" comment comes from. I have to conclude that you have a very vivid imagination concerning those with whom you disagree.
So what do you do when you're in the open and your gun doesn't fire when you press the trigger? Do you stand there while you attempt to perform a Combat Reload (with the expectation that the problem is just an empty magazine) or do you quickly move off the line of attack?

Quote:
That simple logic dictates that even in the case that you cannot recognize slide-lock, you are far more likely to gain an advantage by training to simply reload than to proceed as if there is a malfunction.
When reality doesn't meet your expectation (you have a stoppage other than an empty magazine) your OODA Loop resets and your attention is dangerously diverted to the gun.

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But the simple fact is that people can and do learn to recognize slide-lock, as a part of basic instruction...
"Recognizing slide lock" is not a robust and reliable combative technique under stress in a variety of conditions.

Quote:
That simple logic dictates that even in the case that you cannot recognize slide-lock, you are far more likely to gain an advantage by training to simply reload than to proceed as if there is a malfunction.
Combative manipulations may take a a little longer to perform but they're designed to be robust and reliable in a variety of conditions. It may take a little longer to do it right the first time but it takes a lot longer if you have do it over again (OODA Loop reset). Combative manipulations are designed to be performed quickly with a high chance of success.
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Old November 22, 2013, 05:39 PM   #46
zombietactics
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Quote:
Not really
Ummm ... OK, glad to know that. Perhaps you should not state all that stuff about bursting mags, over-n-over, if that's not your concern. People have a bad habit of thinking you mean what you say (joke). Glad to have that cleared up.

Quote:
As a former LEO my experience is different than yours.
That's interesting, but being that something like 95% of LEO (Fed, State, County & Local combined) never fire their sidearm in the course of duty, I'm not certain what that is actually supposed to mean. I make no "claims of awesomeness", but I do know that I train far more than most LEO, and I have been at this for decades.

If you have specific instances in mind, please detail them. Perhaps we can learn from your experience. (And I do mean specific. There is no reason why matters which are public record should not be discussed. Department and case number should be minimally mentioned)

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Obviously you haven't seen this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bby5pOVZJ0
Cute. Interesting technology. But that's not how the human mind works. Are you a cyborg?

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That's all fine and good but I prefer to use a robust technique that increases my probability of success in completing a task quickly in a variety of stressful and possibly unfavorable conditions.
That's wonderful jargon but how is a technique based upon lowest-likelihood occurrences increasing the probability of success? That's like saying "you should train for the thing which never happens, because it'll probably be the thing that happens" That's contradictory nonsense.

And (as has occurred several times now), you're simply making statements with providing any intervening logic. You've provided no reasoning as to WHY the technique you suggest is "robust", you simply keep stating it or words to the same effect.

Quote:
Diagnosing stoppages is not a robust technique. Diagnosing stoppages increases the time it takes to cycle through your OODA Loop. Diagnosing stoppages diverts your attention from the danger.
I think it's been stated a couple of times that nobody is suggesting "diagnosing" ... certainly not in the old-school Gunsite fashion. Recognizing slide-lock is a trivial, basic skill. I don't know why it should confuse you or elude you, especially given your stated background.

Quote:
Former Navy SEAL Jeff Gonzales, Trident Concepts - http://www.tridentconcepts.com/
Care to document where he advocates tap/rack on slide-lock? Is that your one source? How does he (or you) account for doing something so differently than everyone else, including the current SEAL training standards?

It doesn't look something they teach in their class. Notice the number of side-lock relaods absent even a hint of TAP/RACK:
CLICK HERE FOR VIDEO
I think you said something about skills that are common between your handgun and rifle, so ....
CLICK HERE FOR MORE, WITH RIFLE

And golly jee ... here's Jeff himself just pulling that empty mag out and replacing it with nary a TAP/RACK in sight.
CLICK HERE FOR AWESOMENESS

Pincus has one or two former Seals as CFS certified instructors ... they don't teach it that way, FWIW. Paul Howe is former Delta ... same story. Like I said earlier ... the list is pretty long.

Quote:
So what do you do when you're in the open and your gun doesn't fire when you press the trigger? Do you stand there while you attempt to perform a Combat Reload (with the expectation that the problem is just an empty magazine) or do you quickly move off the line of attack?
Why does this question come up in this context? I don't think we're discussing movement or tactics, so it seems like an attempt to muddy the waters more than anything else. Regardless of how one is reloading, they shouldn't be standing still unless they are behind hard cover.

Quote:
When reality doesn't meet your expectation (you have a stoppage other than an empty magazine) your OODA Loop resets and your attention is dangerously diverted to the gun.
Except we've established that an empty gun is far more likely than a malfunction. You've said as much yourself. If you can't recognize slide-lock, and instead perform a technique based upon your expectation (that it's a malfunction) then the reality that it is far more likely simply an empty gun runs counter to your expectation.

Whatever that does your OODA loop, I suspect that you are just throwing that in as hand-waving jargon. Your logic does not hold, even given your premises.

Quote:
"Recognizing slide lock" is not a robust and reliable combative technique under stress in a variety of conditions.
So you say. I hope you realize that repetition does not make it anymore so.

Quote:
Combative manipulations may take a a little longer to perform but they're designed to be robust and reliable in a variety of conditions.
Except that earlier you were telling us that it was all about doing things "quickly". Yes, you are contradicting yourself. There's nothing "robust" or reliable about adding unnecessary steps to a procedure.

Perhaps you have not thought this through as carefully as you imagine. If you are trolling ... well played, sir ... well played.

Last edited by zombietactics; November 22, 2013 at 06:18 PM.
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Old November 22, 2013, 06:57 PM   #47
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"Tactical Reload" in this context at least, is reloading before you run dry, but specifically keeping the partial mag, correct?
I could be reading things wrong, but it seems like some people are referring to reloading before the mag runs dry in general, and others are referring to keeping the ejected mag.

So, for those of us that carry revolvers, would you have to try to poke the shells back into the speed strip, or could you just pocket them?

Silliness aside, if it's a requirement for IDPA, and people compete with revolvers, how does that work?
There's a club about an hour from me that has IDPA matches, but they require a sponsor to join, and I never seem to get around to driving down to their local gun shop and making friends.

As far as practical purposes go, while there are times I can see wanting to reload before my gun goes dry, I can't see needing to do it quickly. At least not within the context of self defense.
I'm not sure how much weight my opinion - as a largely self-trained, back-woods math teacher - brings to the discussion, but there it is none the less.
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Old November 22, 2013, 08:10 PM   #48
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Old November 22, 2013, 08:21 PM   #49
JohnKSa
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Quote:
Another situation that comes to mind is I may have had to shoot a bad guy in a sketchy part of town (perhaps a Walmart parking lot or gas station). The immediate danger is over. But the bad guy’s homies may show up shortly thereafter or a brazenly hostile crowd gathers before police (or backup) arrive. I’ve personally been in both of these kinds situations (although no shots were fired.)
Playing the scenario game is often a way to try to make the simple complex.

If there's an imminent threat then reloading should only be done if it's necessary and then it should be done as rapidly as possible. Dropping a mag, partially loaded or not, whether it's likely to break on impact or not, doesn't rate as a priority in the face of an imminent threat.

If there's no imminent threat then reload however you want-time is not an issue.

That's simple.

Trying to explain why it's critical to reload in the face of an imminent threat when you don't have to and then that it's also important to take more time than is really required in order to accomplish the procedure--now that's complicated.
Quote:
I don’t count the time it takes to stow the partially depleted magazine because it doesn’t count as down time for the gun.
Of course not. It would make it impossible to reasonably argue that they both take essentially the same amount of time if you did. But the fact remains that retaining the loaded mag is the entire point of doing a tac-reload as opposed to a speed reload.
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Whereas if I were in the middle of a Tactical Reload and danger suddenly appeared...
If you're in a situation where you reasonably expect danger to suddenly appear then you shouldn't be playing around with your gun, reloading it when you don't need to. You're WAY more likely to get shot because your gun isn't working when you need it than you are because you dumped a partially loaded mag that you could have otherwise retained.

BUT, if you DID choose to do something as ill-advised as to take your gun out of the fight when you didn't need to, you should reload as rapidly as possible rather than taking extra time to get your gun back up and running again.
Quote:
...when time and situation permit...
This is part of the contradiction.

If the situation is so critical that retaining half a magazine is actually likely to make the difference between life and death, then it's also so critical that taking your gun out of the fight when you don't have to doesn't make sense.

This is what I've been trying to get across. The doctrine of the tactical reload demands that there is a threat (so you can't waste even a single round) but that there's also not a threat (so it doesn't matter if you reload when you don't have to and take more time doing it than necessary) . It should be done when the situation is so critical that you can't afford to drop a partially loaded mag for fear of running out of ammunition before the scenario can be resolved and yet it's not critical and therefore you can afford to take the gun out of the fight even though it's not absolutely necessary to do so and then use up more time getting it running again than is actually required.

Justifying the tac-reload requires that contradictory circumstances exist simultaneously.
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Old November 22, 2013, 08:59 PM   #50
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Ugh. Too much overthinking for something simple.

Accuracy has nothing to do with it since we cannot control the initial circumstances of the fight, though it behooves the shooter to avoid missing. However, the bad guy(s) get a say in the outcome, so misses are going to happen.

Reloading is dictated by the urgency and tactics. A tactical reload is not appropriate when bullets are incoming. A tactical reload should be performed when no immediate danger is evident. It should not be performed when holding someone at gunpoint, when moving to cover, or performing some other action that requires your full attention while the possibility of lethal force is imminent.
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