Annealing, Grain Structure

[JeepHammer]

I've tried M dies, I don't see a huge difference simply because I champfer mouths fairly smoothly & precisely and don't need help getting the bullet started straight.
M dies are not needed with a smoothly & uniformly champfered neck & boat tailed bullets, almost exclusively what I load/shoot.

Some flat base bullet guys shooting really light bullets benefit simply because those small bullets need all the help they can get starting stright!
Really hard to get those little short suckers lined up with fingers only, a little taper to help out goes a long way!

I look at flaring the case mouth almost like crimping, it work hardens the case mouth at a different rate than the neck... Good way to get cracks started...

Not to beat a dead horse, but annealing helps crimped neck brass live MUCH longer by softening the mouth/crimp where most cracks get started.
It would also help with bell mouth or flared brass, not that flaring brass is NEARLY as hard on the brass as hard crimping is!
Either way, annealing helps take the stress/work Hardening out & the brass lives longer, if not shoots better.

[JeepHammer]

I kind of missed the 'Jig' comment...
I do production, everything is in a Jig, so that question doesn't cross my mind...

If you leave an UNSECURED brass in a coil or ferrite, you will learn VERY QUICKLY what a strong magnetic field will do to supposedly 'Non-Magnetic' brass!
It will yank that brass around unmercifully!

Even in a feeder, you better have the coil/ferrite mounted, and find a way to limit the brass movement.
Very early on in these conversations I showed fiberglass wrap to keep the brass off the coils, and fiberglass sheets to keep the brass off the ferrites.

With Amp, I have to argue against using anything metallic very far down the case.
It might act as a heat sink for the sides of the case, but it's also distorting the magnetic field.
Even small change in arbor material alloy could throw the annealing off.
Aluminum with even slightly more iron would SERIOUSLY throw off the annealing, for example.
Since it's a one at a time unit, it's unlikely you would have more than one arbor, so that point is probably moot, but production it couldn't be allowed, or would have to be compensated for, and why I use electro-magnetic neutral (invisible) materials.

As for water cooling...
Depends on what machine type you are using.

Constantly ON annealers (using brass Time in the coil to control annealing of the brass) MUST be cooled!
Basic electro-magnetic here, as any material heats up, including the coils of the annealer, electrical resistance shoots up. (And I do mean SHOOTS UP!)

This would make the annealer coils inconsistent, the higher the electrical resistance, the less efficient the field.
Eventually, the coils would fail, probably melt.

Momentary operation, switching the coil ON/OFF to control exposure time, allows the coil to cool.
This becomes a question of 'Duty Cycle',
--- Does the coil cool sufficiently to perform consistently, or does it stay hot enough to retain unacceptable electrical resistance?

Those of us that have played with switched coils know you run a few before the annealing becomes consistent, it's been discussed before here...

Switching is most certainly the most efficient use of power on all but conveyor belt line runs, no question about it,
But you do have to run a few to get the coil temprature/resistance up to it's WORKING level before your production gets really consistent.

I just run a hand full of bent/cracked necks through before I start production, no problem after that.

A 'One At A Time' guy would want to allow the coil to cool completely before running the next round, just to be safe,
OR, start with some cracked/bent necks as he got a rhythm down, continuing right through with his good brass without stopping.

Consistency requires an even pace if you aren't going to let the coil come back to room temp between cycles.

Feeding machines (Girard & the like) take the guess work out of that, a case is going to drop at even intervals & that's going to allow the annealing coil cool at a set rate each time.

Same is true with gas annealing, the pressure in that gas bottle is dropping constantly, the front of your batch isn't going get the same energy/heat as the first of the batch...
The ONLY way to compensate for that vairable is a LARGER gas bottle, and a regulator.
I did extensive work with 1 pound gas bottles and screwed myself for a year before I figured out what was happening,
Switched to a 20 pound grill tank, and a good pressure regulator, and suddenly the first of the batch turned out like the tail of the batch.

Everytime I see a video on YouTube with a 1 pound gas bottle I have to roll my eyes and assume the guy making the video simply doesn't know any better, but in 100 cases or less, his Rockwell numbers are going to have a 20 point spread...
Not consistent in the slightest, a d that's ONLY IF he is using some sort of timing control or temp indicator... He has ZERO chance with 'Eyeball' or color change as a guide...

[hounddawg]

Feeding machines (Girard & the like) take the guess work out of that, a case is going to drop at even intervals & that's going to allow the annealing coil cool at a set rate each time.

Same is true with gas annealing, the pressure in that gas bottle is dropping constantly, the front of your batch isn't going get the same energy/heat as the first of the batch...
The ONLY way to compensate for that vairable is a LARGER gas bottle, and a regulator.

A couple of questions

how would you auto feed using the Annie unit ? The continuous cycle coil for the Annie is a 360 degree loop and the only way I could envision automatic feed would have the case being dropped in vertically from above then dropped through the bottom of the coil at the end of the cycle. The non continuous duty cold could be fed and removerd through the front.

I have to wonder why the Fluxeon designers did not mount the coil on a base that had a horizontal or vertically fed case holder system so that the case would be in the same spot each time. In its's present state the Annie is little better if not worse than a torch to get consistent placement. At least with a torch I can always put the tip of the blue cone in the same spot every time. And with a home made or purchased automatic unit the timing issue will be a breeze to set up.

Back to the gas heated

On a regulated torch the tank size will does not matter. The regulators job is to make sure that the pressure on the outlet side is constant at about 10.5 inches of water column regardless of the inlet pressure from the tank. Even with an unregulated torch for batches of 50 or 100 the tank volume and ambient temp the flame won't vary enough to matter because propane has an expansion ratio of 270 to 1. I want to use the same timing for batch to batch uniformity a regulated torch will be needed. Until I get one I will just check the timing using Templaq with each run since the liquid propane in the bottle has an expansion of 270 to 1. For a 15 or 20 minute job even using a unregulated torch the difference between the heat at the beginning and at the end is moot.

[scatterbrain]

Hounddog, the Annie has a fifty percent duty cycle, with an automatic feeder you could get close to 100 percent if you wanted to. I built a fifty percent trap door and feed by hand, I'm not pushing for mass production here. As to centering the case in the water cooled coil I drilled a piece of plexa glass to the dia. of a 300 WM and then beveled it so that the top will not catch a rim. The Annie will center the others for you, nothing neede, GREAT MACHINE.

[hounddawg]

[quote] I built a fifty percent trap door and feed by hand, I'm not pushing for mass production here. As to centering the case in the water cooled coil I drilled a piece of plexa glass to the dia. of a 300 WM and then beveled it so that the top will not catch a rim. The Annie will center the others for you, nothing neede, GREAT MACHINE. [quote]

the plexiglass sounds like what I would have done if I had bought one and would work great as long as you are just shooting one cartridge family. However supposing you are going from .308 to 30-06 or 6 Dasher you will have to recalibrate for case height , neck diameter, case diameter, and neck thickness.

I am not trying to be argumentative here or insult anyone but for the life of me I just don't see anything gained from the Annie. It appears to me that is nothing more than a expensive electric regulated torch that you can time precisely.

A 40 dollar regulated torch will give just as consistent of a heat source as the induction will, and I don't have to guess where the flame is heating my case, I can see it to adjust it and use the auto feed to get consistent times.

Within a month or two I will know whether I will buy an Amp or not. I have one set of 50 308 Lapua that are virgin brass, another 50 that have been shot once and SD and EDs recorded from the same lot. Then another 100 Lapua 260's that are on their 5th load and another 100 that are on their second load. Also a whole bunch of Hornady 204 Ruger brass that are in the teens now with no anneal. I will be doing chrony tests on various case lots and recording the results to see what if any improvements the in velocity consistency I get by annealing and whether I want to take it a step farther. The only test that matters here to me is consistent performance.

[JeepHammer]

OK,
Annie can use either a solid coil, tubing coil (for water cooling) or a Litz wire & ferrite.
The Girard & Annie my wife bought me work pretty well together with Litz wire/Ferrite arrangement.
The feeder drops the case into the GAP in the Ferrite, which does the same job as a torch only more precisely.

The Girard comes wired with a trip switch to activate the Annie timer when the case drops, in under 2 seconds your case is annealed and drops out the bottom.

I suggest a metal pan to drop into, the neck is still warm enough to somewhat melt a plastic bucket or pan.
The head can be handled with bare fingers.

Ferrite is an INTENSE focus point of the magnetic field, but the Ferrite can fairly easily be opened up for any neck/shoulder size, and it can be shaped to apply more or less of the magnetic field to a particular part of the case.

There is a speed adjustment on the feed machine, you can speed up production since the annealer only needs to 'See' the case for Two Seconds.
With gas on the same machine, your production is limited to exposure time to the flame.
With gas, when you get into fine annealing, I suggest you upgrade your timer to something much finer, the Girard time controller is pretty basic.
This upgrade is about $10 and it's all over the internet.

[scatterbrain]

Houndog, the height adjustment was made to work for 223 thru 300 WM and can be tuned to the nearest 1/16". I control the action by using tempilaq and can see the heat line perfectly, being able to raise or lower the burn mark as I want. You were raising some questions that were easily solved, so I only attempted to ease your concern, not argue.

[hounddawg]

The feeder drops the case into the GAP in the Ferrite, which does the same job as a torch only more precisely.

underline added by me

With a regulated torch the heat output would be the same on a August day with a full tank of propane or a January day with a nearly empty tank. Ambient temperature and tank pressure become moot. With a home made or commercial feed unit the timing would be exactly the same every time. How would a Annie be more precise than that ?

If I were going to drop 1000 plus into a Annie, a Giraud case feeder and the adapter kit needed to attach the two I will just buy a AMP which does the same thing more precisely and with no need of recalibrating every time I change cases.

[JeepHammer]

Dawg, that's entirely up to you what you buy.
Don't know why the confrontation, but it's up to you what you get & how you use it.

And while on the subject, Annie & Girard would give you a production system that fairly consistent...
Amp is a single case unit with no provision for a production option.
Annie & Girard are still $500 USD cheaper than the advertised price of the AMP,

When Annie & Amp are compared as single case units, the Amp is $1,000 USD more expensive.

Buy what you want, that's entirely up to you, it's not my money and my objectives could very well be different than yours.

----

I just point out vairables, either you are concerned with them or you aren't, again, up to you.
Doesn't matter if it's 'Torch 'em & Shoot 'em, or OCD as all get out like I am, whatever works for you.
I got an Girard & Annie for free, just dropped in my lap or I probably would be building the induction units.

I work with Annie Girard because they are commonly available and kind of fun to play with, produce repeatable results so someone else that doesn't want to section, polish, micrograph, Rockwell test, ect can get as close to the line as possible.
This is my idea of a hobby, and/or fun, YOUR mileage may vary...

I found an induction annealer produced more consistent results simply because it removes vairables, the biggest of which is conduction heating, heating the outside of the case and waiting for said heat to penetrate into the case.
Induction heats from within, much like a microwave, so no issues with overheating the outside trying to get the inside hot enough...

For me it's about the END OBJECTIVE, Someone else might have different objectives, like just case longevity..

The OBJECTIVE isn't HOW you heat the case in the first place,
The OBJECTIVE isn't how HARD the case is when you are done.
The OBJECTIVE isn't even about how hot the case gets or doesn't get...

The OBJECTIVE is to have as consistent a hold on the bullet as possible from ALL CASES.

Doesn't matter if you salt bath dip the cases, lead dip the cases, flame the cases, induction annealing the cases,
Doesn't matter how you reach the OBJECTIVE, BUT THAT YOU REACH THE OBJECTIVE.

Neck sizing determines how MUCH HOLD you get, all else being equal, so I don't even worry about what the 'Average' hold is, I just want the highest & lowest numbers to have the closest possible spread.

When Lapua can produce cases with 1-1/2 to 2 pound spreads, that's pretty darn CONSISTENT!
When I can get second rate milbrass to a spread of 5 pounds or less, that's pretty good...
I don't know the secret to sub-2 pound spreads, but I'm not going to stop looking anytime soon...

[hounddawg]

Dawg, that's entirely up to you what you buy.
Don't know why the confrontation, but it's up to you what you get & how you use it.

And while on the subject, Annie & Girard would give you a production system that fairly consistent...
Amp is a single case unit with no provision for a production option.
Annie & Girard are still $500 USD cheaper than the advertised price of the AMP,

When Annie & Amp are compared as single case units, the Amp is $1,000 USD more expensive.

Buy what you want, that's entirely up to you, it's not my money and my objectives could very well be different than yours.

I am just discussing the thread subject and still waiting for someone to explain to me why how Annie provides any more precision than a regulated flame on a automated unit. I think I can achieve my objective for a fraction of the cost of a Annie + case feeder or a AMP.

My objective is simple. To anneal 50 to 100 cases a week and be assured that the first case I annealed in a batch will be the same as the 50th. For 1100 that the Amp would be an expansive but perfect solution. Changing cases from .260 to .308 to .204 would simply be a matter of switching case holders and dialing in the proper program. No readjustments of case position or guessing at time while calibrating wit Templaq needed

At Grafs an Amp is $1099 and case holders are $20 each. For my purposes it would cost me $1139 plus 7.95 for shipping to set up for my current 3 cartridges I load for. What I get is a unit that requires basically no though or calibration. I change case holders and dial in the correct setting from the database then just swap cases in and out for 10 or 15 minutes or so with the assurance that each case is perfectly positioned and perfectly timed

In comparison the basic Giraud case feed unit is $470 and case feeder wheels are $20 each. To convert to use the Annie it would cost another $125 at time of purchase or another $250 to convert one that I already owned. A basic Annie costs $470 so that puts me up to about 1100 including a second case feeding wheel.

For that 1100 I still have to recalibrate the time and the case position when I change from one cartridge to the next same as if I was using a regulated or even unregulated propane heat source.

Not trying to insult anyone or anything here just pointing out the facts. BTW my wife is mad at you Jeephammer for getting me started on this. Now each night she has to listen to me babble about neck spring back SD's and ED's. All in all though I owe you a thanks for getting me to thinking about this, it might help me get to that next level. Now if you can suggest an alternative to the Mark I Mod 0 eyeball for gauging wind out to 1000 I will be eternally grateful

But still if I can get my groups down from consistent sub .5 MOA with occasional .3's and .2 groups to consistent .3's with the occasional .2 it will be worth it to me to automate the process. If I did not have a shop or knowledge to build my own case feeder I would gladly spend 470 on the Giraud case feed unit and just use a regulated propane heat source. The case feed looks to be well designed and at a price of $470 and includes regulated propane torch. I can't see any reason to drop another $600 - $700 to add or retrofit to a Annie just to be able to say I did it with induction

Now if I were doing large runs of hundreds and thousands of cases a week the Annie coupled with the Giraud feed unit would be an option so I can see and understand where you are coming from. Still you would be limited because you would be manually reloading cases every 5 to 10 minutes for large runs and that it looks like the non water cooled coil has to be used with the auto case feeder

[JeepHammer]

Simply because electro-magnetic annealing heats evenly from within, instead of applying heat from outside.
The idea is to realign grain structure, 'Vibrating' on the molecular level helps with that also.

It's simply more efficient at the given task.

I'd be glad to use flame since I have a ton of leftover crap here, but sectioning/samples say induction is more consistent than any torch rig I could come up with.
The only thing that came close was a bank of nozzles, turned down fairly low, and that requires a shuttle of some kind to control time exposure.
A lot of work & hardware for 100 cases or less.

[RC20]

JH:

I don't use the M die for flare (few if any flat based target bullets these days) , just a final process that replaced the very draggy ball of the regular dies.

I find it a lot smoother and reportedly less stress out of the neck.

It seems to work a lot better, I have taken the balls out of my dies so they are steers now!

[RC20]

As noted, I use the Ferite coil on the Annie and does fine.

I am not into production, I can do 500 cases in maybe 20 minutes by hand.

I keep enough cases on hand that I can run a month or so of shooting before I have to cycle another round of them through.

As the anneal is once every 3 to 5 for me its not an issue.

[hounddawg]

Simply because electro-magnetic annealing heats evenly from within, instead of applying heat from outside.
The idea is to realign grain structure, 'Vibrating' on the molecular level helps with that also.

It's simply more efficient at the given task.

I'll grant you that point but at at the price is it cost efficient ?

We are dealing with less than 10 grains of brass .015 thick spinning in a 3600 F flame. Brass has a thermal conductivity of 122 which means it heats very evenly. Not as good as copper whose TC is over 400 but pretty darn good and in the top 5 materials.

And once again I have to bring out that the Annies instruction manual on calibration consists of put a little templaq on the neck, put the case about here and see if the templaq melts. I can't see where that is any more precise than put the blue cone of the flame here, put a little templaq on the neck and see if it melts.

If you want to drop a grand Amp you will get precision. With a $500 Annie you get no more precision than you can get from a 35 dollar regulated plumbers torch from a home store. That is the bottom line in all this. One heats it using chemically generated energy the other magnetic

I think where we differ is I could care less about the theory while to me you are into the forest so deep you forgot why you went there. No offense meant . I got lost a couple of times in theory land myself. For example I dumped a ton of money building water cooled computers a decade or so back just cause they were fun to build and the theory was fascinating

In my mind there are only 3 measures that would define proper annealing for the average reloader. Is the case and the method safe, do I get acceptable consistency in my velocities and do I get good case life. As long as I can meet those three criteria I will look to do it in the most cost effective manner I can.

BTW if I were the designer of the Annie and reading this thread I would start to work immediately figuring out how to provide better case placement and make it easy to set up to switch various cartridges. Some way to calibrate it other than paint a little templaq on the case and start low would help also

[RC20]

I can't agree with that.

The Annie is consistent and the variables are very few (clean cases being about the only one)

Templaq on, and in the neck and watching it melt is vastly easier than a twirling case in a flame. and trying to assess it while holding it evenly.

Next step up is the rotary trays and twirly, still have the issue of torch, heat as pressure and you may even have different caloric values from bottle to bottle.

I can put the room dark and as noted in another post, I can see if there is ANY glow down inside the neck. Can't do that with a torch.

There are some people who look to have mastered it as a craft, but they are very meticulous. I can pretty casually run a few tests and be where I need to be.

I don't say if you like the torch and are happy with it that you should be dissuaded form its use.

But, for ease of use and consistent results for most, you can't beat the Annie.

[RC20]

And while I have written Garrett and he expressed the appreciating for improvements in the manual, he is also back ordered 4 to 6 weeks.

I would say he (Fluxion) is doing just fine.

I do appreciate he is taking input to get better functionality.

Some will never be convinced and that is fine as well.

If you are happy with your process then that is great.

I look at the investment I have in brass and have chosen to go a different way for very good reasons.

I think its much superior to the torch approach.

As long as someone goes into this as informed as possible, that is the goal.

[RC20]

Costs: Purely on the use of a torch, even is the Annie took the same energy per case as a torch, you are burning fuel regardless if a case is in the stream when the Annie is just sitting there until needed. for its two seconds.

So do some calcs as to how many propane cylinders you use for how much brass?

If you shoot a lot, I bet the Annie beats it in costs alone in 3 years (I figure I shoot at least 8,000 a year)

Amortize the cost of the Annie over say 10,000 cases. Cost per case is ?

I am going to use ball park here. $400 for the Annie (actually a bit less), 40,000 cases (call it 5 years shooting)

Cost per case? 1 cent. Use it for 10 or 15 years.

Bullets? 5 to 8 cent a case.

Primer: 3 cents a case.

Powder? 8 cents a case.

Case: 50 cents to $1 a case (good brass, once fired up to Lapua)

Propane: $3.50 a cylinder.

Always good to break out real costs.

I will see if I can get a KW hour for the Annie. Even at full boogie its like 15 cents for an hour, as its 1/5 that, 3 cents in power? Keep in mind our power cost are a lot higher than most places.

As I can process 10 a minute, in an hour that 600 cases for all of 15 cents (and its not going full boogie and have to see what the real energy use is )

[JeepHammer]

I'm pretty satisfied with Annie, it's about as consistent as could hope a sub-$500 machine to be.
If you want fixtures, feeders etc then pay more money.
This is a power unit alone, the reason the machine is less than $500.

Garrett doesn't guarantee the impossible, he tells you this is the power unit, proper annealing is in your hands.
That's something a lot are going to have issues with, the part about it's in YOUR hands.

Fixture making is pretty easy, there are lots of materials out there that will with stand these tempratures,
And they are fairly cheap.
Shaping the Ferrite is a good way to get you MUCH closer to precisely what you want, a fiberglass wrap or two holds the case the designated distance off the Ferrite or coils and you are off to the races.
The fiber wrap is under $15 for a good size roll, and works perfectly fine.

Keep in mind an electrical engineer or designer isn't going to know the vairables of brass annealing in most cases, and NO ONE can anticipate the vairables a home annealer is going to introduce...
Again, that's up to you to learn, and control as many vairables as possible.

It might be "Down The Rabbit Hole", but identifying vairables, and controlling those vairables isn't 'Theory'... We are talking proven here, so a long way from 'Theory'...

Refining the process, figuring out what does (and doesn't) work is PRACTICE & EXPERIMENTATION, not theory.
It's the difference between TALKERS that parrot what they have heard, and finding the issues yourself & dealing with them.

My guess is, someone will make a shaped ferrite that's coated already, and that will be a game changer.

RC20, funny you mention energy costs, I'm off grid solar, about $28,000 in total, haven't paid an electric bill or taxes, line fees, ect in over 13 years.
Counting power price increases, the unit paid for itself in less than 9 years, 13 now and still have another 7 before the warranty on most stuff runs out.

Moved out of a house that could run $1,400 a month to just the power company, more on really cold months. Highest bill was $2,200.

No risk of fire, darn little risk of burns, low power consumption, I can't find faults if you actually use it once you pay for it.
My Annie Girard has run for 10 hours and not twitched the meter enough to notice.

[hdwhit]

JeepHammer wrote:
For me it's about the END OBJECTIVE,...

With respect to that, do you have sample photomicrographs that you could post showing what those of us who would be seeing this for the first time should be looking for in properly annealed samples, under-annealed samples and over-annealed samples?

[JeepHammer]

If I can figure out how to convert the photo format to something that will display on common browsers.

[hounddawg]

This has been a great thread and I have learned a lot from what has been posted as well as doing my own research on the subject. But now I am simply repeating the same thing over and over so it is time to bow out

It is obvious that the Annie owners are going to continue to ignore the elephant in the room. That elephant being there is no way to see where the magnetic field in relation to the neck and shoulder and ensure that the case is placed in the exact same spot every time batch after batch. Fluxeon for whatever reason has provided no method other than eyeballing with which to get consistency in case placement. This is something cannot be disputed.

Just my opinion but if for my purposes of doing small lots of 50 to 100 if I were going to spend a lot of money on a annealing unit I would shell out 1100 for an AMP. It has been developed by engineers, has great product support, been thoroughly tested, and has the endorsement of several top shooters. It's designed so that I get consistent results every time with minimal effort and can be programmed to account for every factor including neck turned cases. The support seems to be excellent to the point where if you have some odd case they will test the cases in a real lab using professional equipment by trained personnel and recommend a program setting for that particular case. Switching between various cartridges is easier than changing reloading dies and no guess factor of any sort is needed.

However as much as I like the AMP's design before I drop 1100 bucks on one I am going to see if I can get acceptable results using a 35 dollar torch just like world class bench rest shooters have been using to anneal their cases and getting .1 groups and double digit reloads with for the last ??? years

I am going to calibrate my auto feeder using the same method that Fluxeon recommends for the Annie. Put a little 700 tempilaq inside the necks and start low with the time and work my way up until the tempilaq melts. Not exactly what I would label as precision but having no metallurgy laboratory or training it will be about as precise as I can get. If I can get factory quality SD's at the range it will be "good enough".

I will start a fresh thread in a month or so and post the results with some empirical data documenting what changes in velocity consistency I see at the shooting bench. Until then I have said all I have to say on the matter

Oh and JH any browser will display GIF or JPG formats. JPG is pretty much the standard these days and there are many free image converters on the net if your device's files are in some other format. If you have any questions on file formats just message me and I will be glad to help.

With that I am out of this thread unless someone posts some glaring misconception that I cannot resist correcting

[JeepHammer]

Go with what you know!
As far as Annie vs Amp, I don't own an Amp, so someone with both, and is willing to do the micrographs & pull testing does compare the two.
I suspect to will be little or nothing since induction heating is induction heating.

I've found hardness testing will get you 80% there.
Microstructure sections give you a real visualisation of what's happening, but I believe you could do without it.
Pull testing will get you to the 90% mark, but I don't believe it's the entire story.
I don't have the 'Perfect' way to do this, just adding to what I know a little at a time...

I may have to settle for 90% even after all this.

[RC20]

houndawg: No, we keep learning more, some stuff is repeated, but we do bring up more and various aspects.

In your case, energy cost and how does this compare cost wise? Good question and the gears start turning.
Now the goal is good rounds (amateur bench rest quality at least) so cost is not a full driving object (quality is) , but it is certainly a fact you have to consider in the budget (can I afford the up front cost vs the long term lower layout?)

At 1 cent a case, if even that, ROI vs a torch setup is?

Pretty clear that if you can afford the upfront, the ROI is much better if you process significant amounts of brass. More weight if you have all Lapua.

First I applaud your approach. If you don't want to spend that money and can get the consistency that satisfies you then that is all good.

I do advise others that the consistency and quality goal is not easy to achieve and much harder with a torch (I think that is fair)

Bringing up the position of the case in the Annie coil for consistency is relevant (I had not presented it, not sure why, too caught up in the other aspects.

I have solved the consistency of position of the case (variations needed for other cartridges) , right now I am running my 308 brass through as it is due)

As the coil is at a fixed height, I simply looked for a piece of material that had the required height to put the case in the same vertical relationship each time.

I had thought of drilling material (wood or plastic) to case size to do that but while I was looking around, I found a primer tray form CCI 200, hmmm, looks about the right height, flip upside down and it has 4 rectangular boxes in the back of it.

So over to the Annie I go, put a 308 case in the corner of the tray, wedge it in with my finger. I am sitting right in front of the machine so I can see the clearance left and righty is even, push the button and whalla!

All I have to do is raise the Annie up for 30-06 and 7.5.

Or I can drill material and have a setter for each caliber with the right height.

As noted by JH, I can get the case out of the Annie coil, pick up by the base and get it into the wonderful stainless steel medical instrument pans my wife got me before the heat gets to the base.

note: Some of the Pans were made in Sheboygan Wisconsin! 30 miles or so from where my mom was born. Pretty cool.


I cycle in one of my test cases with the Templaq on it from time to time to check quality of the setup.

Note: Fluxion advises running 10 case through first, which I do, I don't see any difference but do anyway as the Annie is supposed to be settling in, then they get run through after they have cooled off.

And long term, if you do enough brass, the Annie obviously pays for itself in saved energy costs. The AMP unit would take longer as it cost more.

I was disappointed as you went to comparing the AMP unit costs and did not stick with the Annie and what a Propane cylinder costs.

Or acknowledge what I think is a most interesting point, a torch is using energy all the time, the Annie (mostly other than the fan) only when you hit the button and then only two seconds or so.

Time wise I don't want to spend any more than I have to re-loading, I like to shoot and loading is a means to do that, its not therapy for me (some feel that way, I don't)

The Annie gets me where I want to be quickly and quite easily.

[hounddawg]

Bah! You guys keep sucking me back into this because as much as I am complaining I do love to do is learn and analyze.

@RC20

On the cost part I have a nice sum saved up in my "toys" account, enough to cover both an Annie and a AMP today but the would either be worth the bang for the buck ? No pun intended.

on some other points I bought a fresh propane cylinder yesterday and it cost $2.90 cents. That's less than 10 bullets in reloading money so operation coist of either electricity or gas is too small a factor to be concerned about.

I agree on the time factor but am confused at whether you plan on using the Annie with the Giraud case loader or doing 1 at a time. If you are doing one at a time I acknowledge that you can rig up a jig to make sure the cases are in the same relationship with the coil every time. You could probably even make a jig to ensure the coil is in the same place on a Giraud auto feeder but would have to readjust anytime you wanted to do a different sized case.

Then the question becomes how do you make sure that magnetic field is concentrated on the right spot on the case? Without a thermal imaging camera that would measure above 1000 F which would run you anywhere between 5K to 35K there is simply no way you can tell if that heat is concentrated on the neck, the shoulder or the case body.

What I find downright scary is when I look in the Annie manual http://fluxeon.com/downloads/Annie_I...ion_Manual.pdf

on page 6 the top picture shows the case sitting inside the coil while the neck is above it. I want to anneal the neck, not the case body and certainly not the head. It also appears that the case is way closer to the back of the coil than the front, but that could just be the angle from the camera and brings me back to the issue of consistent case placement within the magnetic field . Regardless of any short comings gas heating has at least I can see where the heat is being concentrated and adjust the position accordingly


@ Jeephammer

do you have a hydraulic press that is capable of fine control down to 1 psi? I was thinking you could rig up a K&M arbor press with a force indicator and a then rig up a V block and compress the neck at various pressures while measuring the deflection of the case neck with a second dial indicator. That would not be exact of course but would give a good idea of the necks elasticity and ductility properties. What you would really need is a press capable of fine pressure adjustment and expansion/compression collets to simulate what happens when the neck is compressed in the die and expanded in the chamber. Once again that carries way too steep of a price to just satisfy curiosity on a hobby level.

It would also be interesting to record the heat flow applied with a induction unit vs heat applied with a torch using one of those high end lab grade thermal imaging cameras. If anyone here has several grand burning a hole in their pocket they could post us some videos of a case being heated with a torch and one being heated with induction

Now back to my DIY case feeder, I hope to finish it this afternoon or tomorrow at the latest. So far I have less than a hundred bucks into it and I having a ball with the construction and assembling. If I find I want even more consistency I will drop a grand on the AMP, but that will not happen unless I am convinced I need more consistency than the DIY unit delivers

[JeepHammer]

RC20, like ai said, someone will make Ferrite or coils for specific case necks, something coated or encapulsated in thermal insulation where you can drop the case in mouth first, then you will have an Amp without the fixture for every different base.
I thought about it myself, but I do production, so flipping cases neck and feeding them that way is a deal breaker.

I do open coil and a Bakelite type material for new production when cases are exact diameter & length, bit that feeder doesn't work so hot with range pickup, on 9mm or 7.62 in the mix and you will spend HOURS clearing the jam and replacing shoes on the belt.

What I would really like to have is a cheap, simple way to feed from Dillon feeder to the Girard machine so it didn't take an hour filling that gravity bin.
I've done a couple on the fly conversions, they are glitchey at best, but I haven't spent the time to get one done that works 100% yet...

As for purpose, that's up to who ever is doing the annealing, case longevity being the goal, big cost savings there, 1 cent to anneal, average 10 cents for used cases, you do the math!
That savings alone should appeal to reloaders!

I'm looking for something different, a better resized, more consistent case.
Longevity is a bonus for me, not the objective.
I'm getting pretty close (relative terms) to getting ordinary milbrass to within 5% of ultra premium brass in terms of consistency.

Now, that doesn't exclude the other stuff, flash hole prep, champfering/deburring/trimming etc,
But the base brass itself is coming along quite well.
Since I shoot MOA or SUB MOA most times, that's not too bad with reconditioned milbrass,
I'm not shooting one hole bench groups, but can shoot one ragged hole and that's not too bad with milbrass through a rifle that didn't cost $10,000 to get built...

I use fixtures for testing sometimes, I'm old & beat up enough I can't shoot like I did, and I don't want a bad day to throw results off.
Most times it's about the Dyno results, seeing if I can get the neck tension just a little more consistent...
I've found the closer the neck tension spread, the better the group of the batch, so I'm going that way for now...
Could be only part of the story, but I won't know that without exhausting all avenues of experimentation.
I have to hope I'm not wasting a year of my off time anyway, but it's happened before.
(Precision neck length cutting comes to mind, that was a wasted year)