![]() |
![]() |
#1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 3,411
|
Mil (MRAD) scope
Ventured into "long range" shooting lately, and found everybody is having scope in mil, or MRAD, instead of MOA.
It is pretty convenient in metric environment. 1 mil is 1 meter out of 1km and so on. However I don't have access to military facilities, and all ranges I shoot at have yards, not meters. It is not that convenient, is it? Not the end of the world really. 1 mil = 3.6 MOA. I can handle that. However the turret clicks makes hesitate. Better mil scope actually have 0.1mil per click. That is 0.36 MOA. Isn't it more coarse than the traditional 0.25 MOA per click? Why do I want to do that? But first, do I understand it correctly? Thanks. -TL PS. Most scope models have both mil and moa versions. The latter is usually a bit cheaper. Cheap scopes usually have mil reticle and 1/4 moa clicks, which is silly. Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk Last edited by tangolima; October 17, 2022 at 02:36 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 1999
Location: NW Wi
Posts: 1,623
|
That's the way i understand it. If you use the turret for elevation adjustment, the courser clicks translate to significantly fewer clicks as the distances increase.
While you may not zero exactly on at 100 yds with the mil-mil, that's not really what they are for. IMO, depending on scope, it may also mean less chance for error in elevation adj with fewer click adjustments. |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 3,411
|
That kinda makes sense. But I still think finer click is a "good virtue" for a scope.
I think it is a matter of tradition. Long range has root from military sniping. Mil is the language of the trade. I want to get in the game, I'd better start talking in their language, or I'd become a outcast. -TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 27, 2010
Posts: 933
|
If you're doing a lot of shooting at varying distances you'll appreciate the coarser adjustments. I cut my teeth on a Leupold Mk 4 10x which had full 1 moa elevation adjustments. I was still able to get a good 100 yard zero and very rapidly dial to different distances. Counting fewer clicks and rotations was def an advantage during certain courses of fire we did in the classes I took.
Have to consider the general size of the targets you'll be engaging as well. Are you trying to shoot little itty bitty things where that .1 moa is going to matter or are you shooting ipsc and animal silhouettes where shooter error is going to make more of a difference than .25moa vs .36moa |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 3,411
|
Interesting perspective. I haven't thought of that.
0.36MOA or 0.25MOA a click probably doesn't matter much in reality. But when the spotter calls out correction in 0.1mils, it would be inconvenient if you have to convert that in 0.25MOAs. Thank you guys. I am going with mil. -TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 8,072
|
Quote:
It really doesn't matter what you use to learn long range shooting, but having the adjustments on the turret and reticle match shortens the learning curve. A lot of the first mil-dot scopes had MOA adjustments and that took a bit of a learning curve. MIL-MIL or MOA-MOA just makes it easier to make adjustments on the fly faster.
__________________
NRA Life Member |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#7 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 3,411
|
Quote:
Even at 500 meters, 0.3mil is 15cm, or 6". Christmas tree reticle in a 50mm scope can tell 0.1mil. A bigger spotting scope shouldn't have much difficulty. In a pinch spotting even uses scope on another rifle to spot and call out corrections. -TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk Last edited by tangolima; October 18, 2022 at 10:53 AM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 1999
Location: NW Wi
Posts: 1,623
|
approximately 50 vs 70 clicks for .1 mil adj vs 1/4 moa adj at 600 yds for slower 168 308 out of 16 barrel.
Aside from what was previously mentioned, there is an adjustment in longer range shooting from hitting little dots at 100 yds. Differing purposes/methods and skill sets. For my purposes, am "bracketing" the target. Course everyone's purposes be different. |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 3,411
|
Quote:
Also if a rifle is meant to shoot farther away targets, it would be more efficient to have zero beyond 100yd or 100m. Less clicks from zero. Can't shot little dots at long range. 0.1mil at 500m is 6". -TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk Last edited by tangolima; October 18, 2022 at 11:15 AM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
|
A good rule of thumb for most shooters is to make angular adjustments of the LOS no smaller than one-third the size of a 10-shot group you can shoot.
|
![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 3,411
|
Make sense based on single miss. For 2 or 3 misses with similar corrections, I would adjust.
-TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
|
As virtually all USA NRA's high power rifle target rings are sized in inches, it's best to use MOA units in inches.
Metallic rear sights leade screws typically have 40 tpi threads and 12 clicks per turn. A 30 inch sight radius made exactly 1/4 inch LOS change for every hundred yards of range. |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 3,779
|
Rather than yards vs meters, it feels more like Fahrenheit vs Celsius, a total different way of measuring things, or a foreign language. I bought a mil scope, having watched several videos on it and feels i had a good understanding. I regret it. Way too much thinking and math involved to convert units.
__________________
I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload. |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 3,411
|
Have been shooting with the new scope in mil. So far ok. One click is 0.36" for 100yd, instead of 0.25". About 3 clicks for an inch instead of 4. No problem. It will become instinctive with practice.
I quite like the Christmas tree reticle. -TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 6,099
|
The reason for mil is a bit elusive. It is related to Bart B’s post although I suspect most do not understand this point.
Mil is often not understood well. It is not metric. It is a base 10 ratio. Like 1 yard per 1000 yards….or 1 m per 100m. Essentially a tangent ratio for an angle. So, mil vs MOA. MIL is great for field use because the ratio yields a fine adjustment without being too fine. Also, turrets adjust at 0.1 mil and reticles generally read to 0.2 mil…possible to split in half. MOA adjustments are down to 0.25 MOA usually, although 0.125 and 0.5 MOA exist. The reticles can be base 10, base 4 or base 2. It can get a bit confusing |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,284
|
Base 10 so it is more convenient to work with it in the French System.
Easier to think of 0.1 mil as being a centimeter at 100 meters than to fudge it to .36" at 100 yards. |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 6,099
|
All depends what 1cm means to you….0.36” means more to me…..I’m old.
|
![]() |
![]() |
#18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 6,125
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
#19 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 6,125
|
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
#20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 1999
Location: NW Wi
Posts: 1,623
|
Doesn't really matter if your range is in meters or yards. What a lot of people go off of is their trajectory (hold over) table, and what you plug into it for distance measurement. Ususally the result is in inches, and you need to do some basic math using moa or mil. And even your table is a guestimate till you check it, although some get really close.
Not really that difficult. And mils are not metric .1 cm = .0394 in If i can figure this out, please rest assured anyone else can. |
![]() |
![]() |
#21 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 6,099
|
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
#22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 3,411
|
Mil or moa indeed has nothing to do with metric or imperial per se. It is just a bit more convenient to use mil in all metric environment. Our military has been using that, perhaps because NATO. It isn't that hard when I put my mind on it.
No problem with dope table as I can easily make one in 0.1mil clicks. I design and print my own practice targets. They have grids in inches. I have started converting them to cm grids. Some of them need more doing as I have lost the original files. Small problem with the range distance though. It is still in yards. I need to take 10% off for meters. 100yd is 90m, 500yd is 450m etc. -TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk |
![]() |
![]() |
#23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 6,125
|
4.5 x 30 x 56 Trijicon Tenmile at EuroOptic.
|
![]() |
![]() |
#24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 7, 2007
Location: Lancaster Co, PA
Posts: 2,311
|
It's definitely something that takes a bit to wrap the mind around, but what I like about is that I can interchangeably alternate thoughts between dialing and holding with the reticle, and using the info in the reticle to think through corrections.
__________________
Students for Concealed Carry on Campus http://www.concealedcampus.org "You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws--that's insane!" - Penn Jillette |
![]() |
![]() |
#25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 3,411
|
Best way is to not convert mil to and forth moa. Now I just keep in mind the range in hundreds of inches. 100yd is 36 hundred inches. One click (0.1 mil) is 1/100 of that is 0.36 inch or 1/3 inch.
It works the same way in metric. 100yd (our range doesn't have 100m) is 90 hundred cm. One click is 0.9cm. For corrections, FFP with Christmas tree reticle make it very easy, if you can spot your own shots. Just count the ticks on the reticle. No conversion needed. It would be complicated if you have a spotter who calls out moa while you are working mrad. Not that hard really. -TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk Last edited by tangolima; December 29, 2022 at 06:18 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|