what's the difference?

[AUG]

Welcome!

Originally Posted by pointfiveoh

He is 72 or 3 now and could kill anyone I know with his hands

So can most any man without any MA training to speak of. It just depends on how hard the opponent fights back.

Originally Posted by pointfiveoh

In sparring, most styles do not try to actually kill each other, whereas military training and boxing opponents do.

Are you talking about the hand to hand training that guys get in military training? I would hardly hold what little bit of hand to hand training done in the military to that of a boxer. Flipping each other over in the dirt, fighting with giant q-tips, and sparring in full gear once or twice is hardly "training" someone to fight.

I'm not putting down the military but the level of "hand to hand" training is introductory at best.

[pointfiveoh]

Oh, you are absolutely right, that's why it is "basic" training. I'd have to agree with you 100% that boxers have more and possibly better fight training. However, take any vet in reasonable shape and I'm sure they could show a boxer a thing or two. Really just depends on the person. And to explain my awe of Professor Cates, I have seen fairly competent fighters attack him and watched him destroy them. After a few goes of "this is just some old man, I'll take it easy on him" some people get tired of swinging and looking at the ceiling. It really is quite entertaining watching someone you thought was the "underdog" whip a bunch of people, especially when many of them are black belts.

[AUG]

Originally Posted by pointfiveoh

I'd have to agree with you 100% that boxers have more and possibly better fight training. However, take any vet in reasonable shape and I'm sure they could show a boxer a thing or two.

I really doubt that "any vet in reasonable shape" can hang with a trained boxer.

[rolling thunder]

my 2 cents.....I haven't had time to read every word here, but since this is what I teach for a living I can probably give a point or two...

Basically all hand to hand fighting falls under grappling or striking. As a complete fighting system, besides being in excellent condition, one must know some from both approaches. Some will swear Ju Jitsu is the best, until they are attacked by five or six gys, then they realize they should have taken some striking training as well. When someone rushes in past a strikers range it will go to the ground in a hurry.

I have heard so many people say "I trained for a few months in this style and I know a little about this style usually no nil. Martial arts is not something you perfect to a fighting degree overnight. No magic pills in MA.
As is Boxing, wrestling, YKD and even Ju jitsu...Just because a defense has a sport venue in no way detracts from the actual art itself.

(Boxing) It is limited but when you consider that nearly everyone you may encounter has no martial training, knowing how to box will save the day more than not. (save for weapons being used) Most "civillians" may know a dirty trick or two and may be in fair shape, but when it comes down to the brass tacks I'd go with a trained boxer.

I would not exactly classify Bruce Lee as the greatest Martial Artist of all time. He was a movie star. He was not a professional fighter. I am sure that Billy Blanks would have no problem cleaning the floor with Bruce Lee in a street fight. Most of what Martial Artists do in movies (like flying reverse crescent kicks and spinning back flips) would be completely useless in a street fight.

Most would. To say that he was not a professional fighter is to say that he did not get paid to fight, had he thought it worth of the arts he would have. He did have plenty of pro-fighters (as I mentioned Ali was among them) who did go and train and take advice from him. As far a Billy Blanks mopping the floor with Lee, I'd take that bet times ten. You didn't notice that Bruce never used flying reverse crescent kicks in his films?

(size and strength) Huh? The essence in TKD are , control, accuracy, speed and power.
I have been fighting nearly all my life. Street fighting and martial arts fighting. I am soon testing for my 5th dan (kukkiwon). I teach that speed IS power. How else are you going to get a 12 year old 80 lb boy to kick through multiple boards? Strength, though being the greater of them, is only valuble if you can move that strength around. Otherwise it is strong like a rock, rather than a waterfall.

Post# 29.....Excellent! Your name isn't "Steve" is it? j/k.]

I'm sure I will get attacked for this comment but.........

No reason to attack you. You are right on the money. It's true as much as not.
I know blackbelts that though they have trained for years in a controlled enviroment, would get the crap beat out of them by anyone sitting at a bar. Those schools allowed those blackbelts to be promoted and even may have taught the good technique. But they failed to instill the spirit of the warrior into them.
Then there are blackbelts that train and even compete, which helps to a degree but sparring has rules, a point forgotten by many who never train for street attacks.
Then there are the blackbelts, (some color belts) who train hard in class, compete seriously and condition and train under me for street fighting. I also bring in friend from grappling arts and they train with then on a part time basis. I instill the heart of the warrior into ALL my students, nearly from the minute they walk in the door. Without the heart to fight, one may as well lay done his weapon.

(MA's study how not to fight) A MA DOES study to fight. In a serious student, one will see that everything they do, (sleep, weights, diet,etc; is to become a very good fighter.) It is only when one has trained to their potential that they then know that if they must fight. that they not only can, but will. The number of encounters they have on the streets declines as the student walks with more purpose, talks with more confidence.

reply to ringo:
I started training in 1975 and it was VERY hard to even endure the workouts. We trained on an asphalt lot in the summer and a small schoolroom in the winter. The only "sparring gear" we had was a mouthpiece and a cup. Yes, we conditioned for fighting, drilled for fighting AND we fought. Little guys fought big guys, multiple attackers, just about as real as we get without actually fighting full-out. I used to rune a mile every day barefoot in one inch rock. The calouses(sp?) on my feet would tear well-worn socks as I put them on.

(street tactics) However, that sort of training I reserve only for my blackbelts. For nearly all my color belts train hard, condition hard, but I don't allow them to step onto the mat, save for some simple drills I involve them in.

I still myself will grapple on my mat, (no use knocking me out of my chair to grapple so I just start there.) Some of my better students best me now but I will often do something as simple as a wrist-lock so they tap out even though they are on top of me.

I don't think that the "biggest" thing you can learn from martrial arts is how to avoid fighting by using your head. Sure that is a good skill, and one I myself have employed many times and urge my students to do so. I always tell them that I defeat my enemy by making them my friend.

There are just too many benifits to MA training (of course I am talking several years, not several months) to be narrowed down to "How is the best way to defend yourself?" It's what kept me alive 9 years ago when my opponent was a pole and harsh weather. It's what has kept my passion and spirit to accomplish my goals. It has become entirely who I am. I live the life of a martial artist, something that is so often not discovered easily even by blackbelts.

A black belt means you are no longer a beginner, nothing more, and from what I have learned that has been true for thousands of years. Anyone who thinks (or thought) that a Black Belt meant you were a Master is or was mistaken, a victem of hear-say or Hollywood. Achiving Black means that you have learned the "basics of the art" and are ready to BEGIN training, not advanced, but beginning training. Black is the beginning, not the end. It is a milestone to be proud of, but pride can get you hurt.

Excellent! I could not have stated it any better. When someone completes painting a picture, are they an artist? Maybe, but not a master.

dedicating much of my life to martial arts is the greatest choice i have ever made, and would never do anything to change it even if i could. =)

Here! Here! I imagine it's like religion. Staying on the path of being a martial artist is the one goal that allows me to attain many other goals.

One bad thing I see in Martial arts is the people in small communities teaching it. Usually its some guy who took very limited lessons himself teaching a bunch of kids who unfortunately don't know the difference. I have yet to see a fight won by a local guy using martial arts. Usually they get their butt kicked in a bar for bragging that they are an "expert" in something. Im sure there are experts in the Martial arts but I feel they are few and far between.

I'm in a small community. I have a few adult blackbelts that work in either security, law enforcement or some other field where confidence and defense skills are used hand in hand. As far as "I have yet to see a fight won by a local guy using martial arts." I coud introduce you to scores just in my state who could (though they wouldn't) easily dispel any notion you've learned that a bar brawler is a better fighter than someone who trains to fight. Even with safety in my class we fight hard. In the last year alone there have been two LOC's (KO"s) two broken hands, a broken nose several blackeyes and a severely dislocated shoulder. By and large, most bar brawlers who often make that claim, would never go to a MA training hall to look for a fight.
NEVER fight a drunk in public.
It is a no win. If they do beat the crap out of the guy then all they were was some "expert" who beat the crap out of a drunk. If they lose, they are now known as that "expert" that got clocked by "Bubba".

I had to delete some really goods post and used few quotes. Hopefully anyone reading will be up enough in this thread to discern who and what I was addressing.

[rugerdude]

I have yet to call the TKD/kickboxing gym near my house, I'm waiting for my sister to get out of the hospital because she wanted to study kickboxing as well. How closely is kickboxing related to boxing?

[Ninjato]

I have yet to call the TKD/kickboxing gym near my house, I'm waiting for my sister to get out of the hospital because she wanted to study kickboxing as well. How closely is kickboxing related to boxing?

For the most part it is boxing w/ TKD kicks. Not really a true martial art IMO, but effective nevertheless. The downside is kickboxing is in many respects a SPORT where many killing/disabling moves are technically illegal in the ring and obviously you have huge gloves on. A real street altercation factors in a lot more than just punching and kicking.

Regardless of what you plan to study, a little training is always better than no training.

[Danindetroit]

Ninjato, is my post #36 on this thread close to what you know of the rules of kickboxing? I saw rolling thunders post, about running for a mile on rocks, is there a reason for that?

Post #36 sorry.

[rugerdude]

"The downside is kickboxing is in many respects a SPORT"

That's exactly what i'm looking for, a sport. I was never interested in football or basketball or baseball or really any sport involving a ball and kickboxing seems like fun. I'm not out to beat the crap out of anyone, I just need something to do in my free time (which I have a lot of). And if it helps me defend myself later on great, but I don't have many enemies.

[Ninjato]

Ninjato, is my post #36 on this thread close to what you know of the rules of kickboxing? I saw rolling thunders post, about running for a mile on rocks, is there a reason for that? Post #36 sorry.

Pretty much. In standard kickboxing, there are no kicks below the waist, blows to the back of the head are off limits (like boxing), mandatory minimum of 8 landed kicks per round. No sweeps to the rear leg and dpeneding on rules, some allow kicks to the head but no punches to the head.

Kickboxing has many benefits: There is a certain realism to it. It gives a person a very good representation of what it feels like to have a lot of agressive force coming at you and it teaches a person distance. Kickboxing focuses on speed, and strength and a tremendous amount of aerobic fitness. It is an ideal sport for a person who want more of an augmented training regimen over a monotonous calisthenics type of excercise. Beyond this, a formal traditional martial art training is necessary.

Formal MA training has changed a lot over the last 30 years and to find a true traditional school setup can be hard to find. Many commercial schools do not cover higher levels of MA.

The main difference is, an effective MA needs to be efficient, quick, and relatively easy to use. Ease of use though unfortunately requires years of training. Years ago, I use to sit in on many women's self defense seminars, and it was quite obvious that NONE of the women completing the course would ever be able to employ any of the techniques that were taught. The main reason being that the techniques were heavily based on MA principles (whatever that particular style was) and not really suited to a person who has no concept of movement...(trust me, the number of uncoordinated people outnumber coordinated people 10 to 1.) The techniques I use feel easy to me due to the training I have had for over 30 years. I have yet to see any of my students able to apply a clean technique since their basics and foundation are weak.

That said, women's self defense has evolved into an impact type class. These are effective and I was highly impressed at the success rate. There were no intricate techniques, and the tools were basic.....when I say basic I mean, HIT to induce a lot of pain, and run like hell. Dukin' it out is NOT the prefferred approach although for many males that will be the general tendency.

Remember, a fight is dirty. It has no rules, and ANYTHING goes. Learn whatever MA you want, pick up whatever sport you want, but when it really gets down to the nitty gritty, your own resourcefullness will be determined by the amount of training and what kind of training you have had, and what is available to you at the time.

[Danindetroit]

Thanks N. Instead of sitting on the couch watching TV, I practiced, boxing type movement, front foot, then backfoot forward, never cross your feet, and when in doubt, circle to the left, since most people, are righties. I asked about the foot thing, I worked outdoors, and had very calloused, hands, and feet, I didn't feel it helped in any way, and I tried to make running or aerobic work as comfortable, as possible, I guess it is a concentration, and willpower thing. I wish I could attend some training, I am going to try physical therapy type exercises at a gym, with the wife, she won't workout without me. I have to try to get my muscles muscles ready for my next back surgery. Stay warm. Happy holiday everybody.