Blackhorn 209 question

[stagpanther]

I'm new to developing loads and just as in the metallic cartridge world I pay close attention to manufacturer's limits. But I'm stumped--I regularly see shooters saying they shoot with loads of 100 to 120 grs--but on the Hodgdon website I see on their charge chart a maximum of 84 grs. I'm having a very hard time figuring out what the real max is(are) and am a bit baffled--do people really know what their max pressure is and what they are running?

[Hawg]

Manufacturers limits are merely a suggestion. With real bp you're not likely to have any problems because excess just get blown out the muzzle. Dunno bout Blackhorn tho.

[freedom475]

It is a Western Powder product.

The 84gr max you see is Scale weight...which computes to 120gr of volume measurement according to their site.

FWIW... 35gr (scale weight) of BH209 will send a 530gr 45-70 bullet to 1000 yards with extreme accuracy.

The BH is powerful stuff, so you sure don't need that much to get the job done.

All powder was weighed in grains on a Scale, Then a measure was made to throw (x) amount of powder. But when Pyrodex came on the scene most folks begain listing all Black Powder and sub data as a Volume measurement to assure safety.

What you are seeing is more confusion caused by the hole volume/weight debate

[stagpanther]

Sorry--not Hodgdon--it's a western powder I think. BUT it does clearly state weight in grains as weighed on a scale.

[NoSecondBest]

Sorry--not Hodgdon--it's a western powder I think. BUT it does clearly state weight in grains as weighed on a scale.

Black powder loads are always listed by volume, never by weight. You can translate volume to weight by simply measuring out a charge and putting it on a scale. As stated above, the 84 grains by weight equates to 120 grains by volume. To simplify, the "grain" on a volume measure really means nothing in regards to actual grains. They should just call it something else but chose "grains" instead. It just makes it confusing to new shooters.

[kwhi43]

I buy my powder by weight and shoot it by weight. Never volume.

[NoSecondBest]

I buy my powder by weight and shoot it by weight. Never volume.

We're talking about black powder and black powder substitutes. Smokeless is a whole different game.

[kwhi43]

So am I.

[stagpanther]

Gotta admit--I come from a long line of cartridge reloading--so the only logical way for me to think about propellent is by weight--with the possible exception of over-all cartridge capacity which is initially a volume measure but then weighed.

[BirchOrr]

I have been reading your threads and an answering the best that I can. All the guys who have added to this thread are pretty much spot on. Blackhorn 209 powder is hot! I would consider a hundred ten grains by volume, a maximum charge. Personally I use a hundred grains of Blackhorn 209 in all my inline rifles.

All the best,

Birch

[BirchOrr]

Black powder and substitutes are measured by volume not weight.

[FrontierGander]

Yup, black powder by VOLUME. Blackhorn209 website gives you the chart for weight as well but black powder has always been and always referred to as BY VOLUME.

[B.L.E.]

The metallic cartridge data given out by BH209 is actual weight, using a powder scale.
Their muzzle loading data is volume units.

Yes, you can use a scale to measure black powder, as long as it's real black powder and not some substitute. With real black powder, the scale weight is approximately equal to the volume grains. Black powder measures were originally designed to throw an amount equal to the scale weight back in the days when there was only black powder.

It was when the black powder substitutes came about where the confusion began. Because most people use a volume measure to measure charges, the charges were given by volume, not by weight.

Most people who load metallic cartridges use scales so the metallic cartridge data for BH209 is given by actual weight.

[hartcreek]

In any case manufacture suggestion is just that. I shoot an old Thompson Center Hawkin in .50 cal the old 1/66 and it takes 140 gr by volume for me to get my best accuracy with it.

[DD4lifeusmc]

1# of black powder is computed to be 7000 grains regardless of granulation size.

Big guns such as full size cannons etc, loads are normally measured in pounds of BP.
But in small arms (rifles, muskets, revolvers,pistols) (NON cartridge) is measured by grains in volume.
Your owners manual should state the maximum safe grains by volume for your gun.
Because of liability issue, many companies are under rating their guns today.

50 gr by volume does not necessarily translate to 50 gr by weight.

Use a good black powder grain by volume measure and measure each load for consistency.
Unlike smokeless a 1 or 2 grain variance is not likely to be dangerous as in excessive pressure and won't make much difference in your velocity or accuracy.
BP guns are NOT magnums. They don't need to be loaded as such.
Max or near max loads are not necessarily the most accurate.
Start low 70 gr or so and work your way up.
Start at 50 yd get on the paper. do NOT alter powder or bullet.
Fire 2 rounds dial your windage in if needed. Fire 2 more. if windage is still off more than 2 inches, fine tune it.
Then repeat adjusting elevation.
Only change one thing at a time.
When you have this worked in, then increase your powder 5 gr. then repeat your windage and elevation if necessary. then increase your powder 5. keep repeating until your accuracy really fails again. You are now at your max accuracy load. you will likely now drop back to last 5 gr load.
Guess what? you get to repeat some of this at 100 150 yd. But should be quicker and easier.
Now that you have all the above dialed in.
Then start over at 50 yd again with your other bullets.
Long process yes, but it the only real way.

[B.L.E.]

I think most volumetric powder measures err on the light side, for liability reasons. I set my powder measure to 70 grains and it will usually throw a charge of 65 grains of black powder by the scale. Different brands of black powder also have slightly different densities.

This also holds true for my Lee shot dipper for measuring shot for my shotgun. I set it to "one ounce" and it will usually measure out around 400-415 grains if I level it, a true ounce is 437.5 grains. This could be because I'm using hard shot which has some antimony in it.

A lot of the ml shotgun shooters I shoot against in ml trap use those Lee shot dippers as powder measures and refer to their powder charges as "ounces" as measured by a Lee shot dipper. Here you have to really understand that when someone claims "I shoot 1-1/8 ounce of shot and 1-1/4 ounce of powder", he doesn't mean it literally. He means the amount of powder a Lee dipper will throw when set to "1-1/4 ounces".
A lot of these guys couldn't tell you what their powder charges are in grains.

I shoot 2.5 to 3 cc of powder in my .36 caliber target rifle. Why do I use cc's instead of grains? Because I have a powder measure that is graduated in cc's and I just remember the loads in cc's instead of grains.
Sometimes I wish that all volumetric powder measures were graduated in cc's and charges were given in cc's instead of grains. That would avoid a lot of confusion.

[stagpanther]

cc's make sense to me as it is truly a volumetric measurement. Getting back to the grs. in BP--it is very common in metallic reloading that a coarse cut powder can yield very different results based on volumetric measurements depending on things such as age, compression "settling" (tickling the grains). I suppose in the old days this variance didn't make much difference--but nowadays the modern in-lines are pushing greater distances with magnum loads--would even small variations show themselves as the range (and type) of load increase?

[Hawg]

I wouldn't touch an inline so can't help you there but with my Hawken a difference of two or three grains isn't noticeable.

[Pahoo]

The metallic cartridge data given out by BH209 is actual weight, using a powder scale. Their muzzle loading data is volume units.

Well, there is your answer and looks like your are talking cartridge loads.

I regularly see shooters saying they shoot with loads of 100 to 120 grs

I'm sure this is referring to long guns and not pistols and cartridges. In fact, many long-gun loads rated for 150grns, "by volume". Now, if a long gun shooter wants to weigh his loads then put them in quick-load tubes, that is his call. Some will actually weigh right at the bench. The last time I checked, there was not enough room in my possibles bad for a scale. I do however, take a combination of quick-loads and field flask, for hunting. .....

Be Safe !!!