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Old October 15, 2019, 12:53 PM   #26
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Other shotguns (like the Win 97) can do it as well if they do not have a trigger disconnector.
I have Model 12s that will do it. I don't think any of the early pump guns had disconnectors. Not sure, but I think the Rem 870 was the first, or at least the first to make it an advertised feature. Pretty sure the last series of Win Model 12s (trap guns, made in the 60s) were fitted with disconnectors, but I know none of the pre WWII ones were.

As far as getting an ATF letter, no, its not a "get out of jail free" card, in the end its always YOUR responsibility to follow the law. What the letter does is prove that you made a good faith attempt to follow the law. Might not matter, but sometimes the courts recognize a difference between accidental and intentional violations of law.
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Old October 15, 2019, 03:59 PM   #27
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I have a couple shockwaves. If they change the laws it is 200 bucks for a form 1 and about a month if filed electronically. I think ??

No big deal.
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Old October 15, 2019, 06:49 PM   #28
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't smoothbore handguns considered "sawed off shotguns or maybe AOW?" Seems like I read that somewhere, probably in my collection of American Rifleman magazines from 1936 to date.
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Old October 15, 2019, 08:16 PM   #29
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't smoothbore handguns considered "sawed off shotguns or maybe AOW?
These are not classified as handguns, they are “firearms”. Neither handguns or long guns, just “firearms”.
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Old October 16, 2019, 07:44 AM   #30
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I sort of thought I understood the convoluted laws as to which combination of barrel length, number of hands used, etc applied. But please explain to me why they went to the trouble of putting shallow rifling in the Taurus Judge and other 410s when they could have just called it "other firearm"? I was under the impression they had to rifle it specifically to keep it from being a SBS.
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Old October 16, 2019, 08:47 AM   #31
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But please explain to me why they went to the trouble of putting shallow rifling in the Taurus Judge and other 410s when they could have just called it "other firearm"?
That has to do with “overall length” regulations. The Mossburg Shockwave guns are over 26” in length. They only make that length with the birds head grip installed. You cannot legally put a standard pistol grip on them. They would be under 26” and therefore fall into NFA territory.
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Old October 16, 2019, 09:32 AM   #32
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So the determining factors are it can have a short barrel if it's OAL is over 26" and is designed to be fired one handed? That leaves me puzzled too. The second link in the OP shows it being fired from the shoulder. Is that just some incidental use of the wrist brace that happens to look a lot like a shoulder stock? I don't think the gun is more dangerous than any other 26" plus gun, it just seems such an obvious skirting of the law that it invites legal trouble.
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Old October 16, 2019, 12:47 PM   #33
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44 AMP
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't smoothbore handguns considered "sawed off shotguns or maybe AOW?"
They are.

HOWEVER, you need to grasp the somewhat Byzantine system used in "classifying" a firearm.

When a receiver is made, the maker registers it, and the classes are rifle (shotgun), Handgun, and "other".
Nope.
A receiver is just a receiver, not a handgun, not a long gun, just a "firearm".
A firearm receiver is not a handgun, rifle, shotgun, SBR, SBR, AOW UNTIL ASSEMBLED AS SUCH. Even if it can only be assembled as a rifle or assembled only as a handgun.....it remains a firearm receiver until assembled.


Quote:
Once this designation is made, the receiver is, from then on, legally a rifle. a handgun, or other. This determines what can, and cannot legally be done with the receiver, and what laws & regulations apply.
Wholly and completely incorrect and the reason why has been covered on this forum dozens if not hundred of times.



Quote:
Handguns are required to be rifled. If the receiver (or frame) the seril# part is designated as a handgun, it is forever after a handgun.
Nope.
It is perfectly legal to take a handgun, add 16" barrel and a shoulder stock to make a rifle. You can then reassemble into a handgun by removing the shoulder stock. Handgun>rifle>handgun>rifle can be reassembled as often as you want. The US Supreme Court ruled on this in 1992 and ATF issued a Ruling in 2011: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ru...stols/download



Quote:
Since its a handgun and handguns have to be rifled, fitting a smooth bore barrel to it makes it a 'Sawed off shotgun" under the NFA law.
Again, wrong.
A handgun with a smooth bore is an AOW, "Any Other Weapon". It does not meet the definition of "Short Barrelled Shotgun".


Quote:
HOWEVER, if the receiver is originally registered as "other" (which is neither a rifle or a handgun) it can be made into something "handgun sized" with a smooth bore, and is legal (assuming it meets other specific criteria) because its is classed as a "firearm" and not a "handgun".
There is so much wrong with this paragraph I'm just going to pretend its not here.

Quote:
It gets confusing, but there are certain things you can do to a "firearm" and remain legal and unregulated, but doing the exact same things to a "rifle" or "handgun" (and all three could be using the exact same receiver design) that turn it into a restricted regulated NFA weapon.
True.

Quote:
Clear as mud now?
You aren't helping.



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44 AMP...... The Mossberg 500 with only a pistol grip is a shotgun....
No, it not a shotgun, its a "firearm". Transfers on the Form 4473 as "Other Firearm".
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Old October 16, 2019, 10:35 PM   #34
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Thank you for correcting me, I have removed the incorrect information.
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Old October 17, 2019, 07:29 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by mag1911 View Post
They're following the same route as the companies that make the mare's leg rifles. If the receiver wasn't originally manufactured for a "rifle" they can configure it as something else.

That said, I believe the mare's legs and short shotguns will suffer the same fate as bump stocks the first time one is used in a highly publicized crime.
They don't change rules. They change their "interpretation" of the law.
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Old October 17, 2019, 08:37 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by mag1911 View Post
They're following the same route as the companies that make the mare's leg rifles. If the receiver wasn't originally manufactured for a "rifle" they can configure it as something else

That said, I believe the mare's legs and short shotguns will suffer the same fate as bump stocks the first time one is used in a highly publicized crime.
They don't change rules. They change their "interpretation" of the law.
First, understand what ATF (and any government agency) is required to do:
Congress passes a law, President signs it.
-The government agency that has regulatory authority writes regulations to implement that law.
- the regulation is usually far more detailed than the law, but must be guided by the law. (example: The law may say "firearm", but gives the regulatory agency the authority to further define "firearm")
- the regulation is supposed to reflect the original intent of Congress.
-To implement a new regulation or change an existing one, the agency must publish the change and allow a public comment period before implementation.
-Since humans are involved, opinions as to Congressional intent, court rulings, new laws.......all have an effect on regulations.

So yes, "rules" CAN change.

What kind of "rules":
-Regulations. While not the law, they carry the weight of law.
-Rulings. When the law is unclear or needs clarification, the agency can issue a ruling on a definition, a regulation or how a procedure may have changed.
-Opinion & Determination Letters. "Is this a gun?" You ask, ATF may answer. The opinion IS NOT LAW, but merely opinion. While technically the letter only applies to that question or that item only, often it is looked on as a change to regulations........and they aren't. Opinion or Determination Letters are not law, but merely the opinion of a staff attorney as to the applicability of the law AT THAT TIME.

As seen in the "can I shoulder an arm brace?".....those opinions can change.
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Old October 18, 2019, 01:57 PM   #37
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My belief that the regs are a complete sham has been reinforced.
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Old October 19, 2019, 01:56 PM   #38
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People really need to stop asking for an explanation as to why they're technically allowed to own firearms which skirt the lines of what would otherwise be considered NFA Items and just enjoy it.

Seriously, stop questioning it and just enjoy it for what it is, a bypass of an antiquated, ineffectual, and most importantly, unconstitutional law. Grab your 20 Gauge or 12 Gauge "PGO Firearm" of choice, load it up with slugs, and marvel at the fact that you are legally wielding what would otherwise be classified as both a Short Barreled Shotgun and a Destructive Device in one.

God Bless America!
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Old October 20, 2019, 01:23 PM   #39
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Forte S+W People really need to stop asking for an explanation as to why they're technically allowed to own firearms which skirt the lines of what would otherwise be considered NFA Items and just enjoy it.
No, people really don't need to stop asking questions. They need to ask more questions.

Blind acceptance of a statement as factual is the mark of a fool. We should ALWAYS ask "Why?". Asking a question is the first step to being educated.
I do 4-5 gun shows a year, I have yet to have a show where upon seeing the silencers in my display case someone didn't comment about how "silencers are illegal". Imagine the look on their face when I explain how they can even buy a machine gun just by paying a $200 tax.

Being a school teacher, I don't like stupid. Not asking a question is stupid. Not knowing the answer is ignorant. Don't be stupid and ignorant.

Being a gun dealer, I like educated buyers because they become repeat buyers. Imagine a gun store selling a first time gun buyer a .22 for self defense, or a 10mm or .44magnum for "target shooting".........neither is appropriate for a novice shooter. That customer is ignorant of the better choices because the gun dealer wasn't interested in education, but in clearing out excess inventory. That customer, if they ever do learn that the 10mm and .44mag are less than ideal calibers for a novice target shooter, may never return to that gun store. That gun store went for the quick sale and not for repeat future sales.





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Seriously, stop questioning it and just enjoy it for what it is, a bypass of an antiquated, ineffectual, and most importantly, unconstitutional law.
Well, at least you didn't call it a loophole.


Quote:
Grab your 20 Gauge or 12 Gauge "PGO Firearm" of choice, load it up with slugs, and marvel at the fact that you are legally wielding what would otherwise be classified as both a Short Barreled Shotgun and a Destructive Device in one.
With this statement you should realize you should be asking more questions.
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Old November 27, 2019, 11:55 AM   #40
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Because the ATF says so, and that's the bottom line.

Folks need to stop looking a gift horse in the mouth and be grateful that they can now legally own what is essentially a short barrel shotgun without having to play "Mother, May I?" with the authorities, pay $200, and wait for them to grant you approval.

Also, folks need to stop being so paranoid and assuming that these will be reclassified just because Bump Stocks were. Honestly, this isn't the first time that something that is essentially a SBS has been classified otherwise, it happened before in the 80s with the Serbu Super Shorty, then again in the 90s with the Thompson Center Arms Contender and MIL Thunder 5, and so on with the Taurus Judge, S&W Governor, Magnum Research BFR, and most recently the Mossberg Shockwave. If none of the previous aforementioned firearms have been reclassified, then why do you assume the most recent incarnations will? Bump Stocks? Are we really going to pretend that the situation is the same and ignore what prompted said reclassification? Because I strongly doubt that anyone will attempt a mass shooting with a Mossberg Shockwave or the like, especially given their limited capacity and heavy recoil making them difficult to control.

Besides, what's realistically the worst that could possibly happen? The ATF reclassifies PGO Firearms as Short Barrel Shotguns so everyone has to either have them registered or remove the 14" Barrel from their Shockwave/TAC-14/Whatever, turn it in, then swap it out for an 18.5" Barrel? The horror! Better not buy one and enjoy it on the off chance that it gets reclassified at some point in time in the future! Seriously, with that attitude you might as well not buy any firearms at all because Lord knows we have enough folks pushing for Gun Control and eventually they might get their way. Don't live your life today, but fear what tomorrow may bring and make all your decisions based on the absolute worst case scenario, or perhaps even an overly pessimistic and highly unlikely scenario. What kind of defeatist attitude is that?
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Old November 28, 2019, 01:41 PM   #41
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Forte S+W Because the ATF says so, and that's the bottom line.
If Thompson Center had taken that defeatist attitude we wouldn't have the ability now to convert a pistol to rifle and back to pistol.


Quote:
Folks need to stop looking a gift horse in the mouth and be grateful that they can now legally own what is essentially a short barrel shotgun without having to play "Mother, May I?" with the authorities, pay $200, and wait for them to grant you approval.
Sorry, it's not a "gift horse". ATF doesn't give gifts, the Second Amendment recognizes the right of the people to keep and bear arms. ATF is required to enforce federal firearms laws that restrict that Second Amendment. That ATF has restricted a particular type of firearm isn't a gift.


Quote:
Also, folks need to stop being so paranoid and assuming that these will be reclassified just because Bump Stocks were.
Until Trump is out of office anything is possible.


Quote:
Honestly, this isn't the first time that something that is essentially a SBS has been classified otherwise, it happened before in the 80s with the Serbu Super Shorty, then again in the 90s with the Thompson Center Arms Contender and MIL Thunder 5, and so on with the Taurus Judge, S&W Governor, Magnum Research BFR, and most recently the Mossberg Shockwave. If none of the previous aforementioned firearms have been reclassified, then why do you assume the most recent incarnations will? Bump Stocks?
Wait what? I think you have some reading to do.
"Essentially" has nothing to do with anything.

-Serbu Super Shorty was and is either an SBS or an AOW. (if under 26"OAL)
-TC Contender was perfectly legal, until ATF said "uh, we think that might be illegal" Thompson Center sued and the USSC agreed.
-Mil Thunder 5/Taurus Judge/S&W Governor/NR BFR....all are perfectly legal because they meet the definition of a handgun. Not having a smooth bore keeps them out of the NFA. Nothing new, its been that way since 1934. That they can fire a .410 shotgun shell has no bearing on anything.
"Reclassifying"? Well, ATF did. Took nineteen years before ATF issued a Ruling on the TC Contender. Reclassifying any of those others would simply mean a change in definition.....exactly what ATF did with bumpstocks. They changed the definition of "machine gun".






Quote:
Are we really going to pretend that the situation is the same and ignore what prompted said reclassification? Because I strongly doubt that anyone will attempt a mass shooting with a Mossberg Shockwave or the like, especially given their limited capacity and heavy recoil making them difficult to control.
Politics prompted the reclassification. Jusy as it will the next restrictions on frearms.


Quote:
Besides, what's realistically the worst that could possibly happen?
Really?


Quote:
The ATF reclassifies PGO Firearms as Short Barrel Shotguns so everyone has to either have them registered or remove the 14" Barrel from their Shockwave/TAC-14/Whatever, turn it in, then swap it out for an 18.5" Barrel?
Well, it worked for bumpstocks didn't it?


Quote:
The horror! Better not buy one and enjoy it on the off chance that it gets reclassified at some point in time in the future! Seriously, with that attitude you might as well not buy any firearms at all because Lord knows we have enough folks pushing for Gun Control and eventually they might get their way. Don't live your life today, but fear what tomorrow may bring and make all your decisions based on the absolute worst case scenario, or perhaps even an overly pessimistic and highly unlikely scenario. What kind of defeatist attitude is that?
Wait.....aren't you the guy who wrote "Because the ATF says so, and that's the bottom line." ?????
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Old November 29, 2019, 07:28 AM   #42
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I don't usually reply to resurected threads, but I thought this point was worth making.

Quote:
Besides, what's realistically the worst that could possibly happen?
The worst that could happen is a law abiding individual could buy one, and not being all that interested in guns, assume that it would be legal forever. Then s/he could become a felon overnight without even knowing it. The situation where they get caught doesn't happen that often, but these laws do catch people in that trap.
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Old November 30, 2019, 03:00 AM   #43
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I'm with Pops and Catchabullet.

If it's the kind of thing you are interested in, buy it and shoot it as much as you can.

I think it's only a matter of time until they get banned. All it takes is one high profile crime or a suitably inclined POTUS. The thing is, the actual laws are written very sloppily and the ATF gets to decide what they really mean. If they can change their opinion to secure a prosecution, or if the Commander in Chief says so, that's it.

And in all fairness, deciding that barrel length has no bearing on what is "concealable" is probably a bad call since it's inconsistent with the rest of the NFA. Oh well, it's not like the parts of the NFA that were written by the actual lawmakers make much sense anyways.
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Old December 1, 2019, 07:44 PM   #44
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kozak6

And in all fairness, deciding that barrel length has no bearing on what is "concealable" is probably a bad call since it's inconsistent with the rest of the NFA. Oh well, it's not like the parts of the NFA that were written by the actual lawmakers make much sense anyways.
It makes perfect sense when you learn that the original draft of the 1934 NFA would have taxed all concealable firearms.....and that included handguns.

Colt, S&W and a few other handgun manufacturers managed to get handguns removed right before passage.....and thats why "concealability" is still a factor on firearms that are neither handgun or long guns.
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