Mystery gun

jdc606 · March 23, 2017, 06:39 PM

Single shot, pot metal. Barrel may be shortened.

Blindstitch · March 23, 2017, 06:43 PM

Interesting.

jdc606 · March 23, 2017, 06:50 PM

Found it. http://www.gunauction.com/buy/13267659 Barrel has most definitely been shortened. Found in an assortment of donations to a local thrift store.

Gemmer · March 23, 2017, 06:55 PM

I have a .22 rifle that has that action. My dad called it a Trappers rifle used to dispatch critters that were caught in traps. Think your example is a cut down. There is no serial no. Or manufacturer name.

Blindstitch · March 23, 2017, 07:00 PM

Someone really had their way with it. Probably not worth making it full length again.

jdc606 · March 23, 2017, 07:07 PM

This one has a serial number. Definitely been butchered into scrap metal.

Jim Watson · March 23, 2017, 08:49 PM

If sawn off from rifle - and I never saw a pistol on that action - it is a NFA no-no.
I doubt the black helicopters will descend on you for a single shot, but it has no value.

FrankenMauser · March 23, 2017, 09:03 PM

As fun as it may be to play with, I think I'd have to place a call to a local LE agency and have them pick it up.

Butting heads with the ATF isn't my idea of a good time.

bedbugbilly · March 23, 2017, 09:03 PM

So . . . it it wouldn't be too "forward" to ask - what is the history of it and how did you come by it?

I remember the "Trapper" which was the same action and the butt was a skeleton stock. The barrel length of what you have doesn't seem like it would ever be a marketable gun for any purpose other than "making trouble' and I would bet that someone cut it down from the rifle.

Hate to ask but did you purchase through a FFL? I kind of doubt that it meets the "legal status" and if it were mine, I'd be putting the hacksaw to good use and scattering the cut up little pieces to the wind. It reminds me of something that you'd fine on the "street", carried by someone who didn't care if it was legal or not.

FrankenMauser · March 23, 2017, 09:09 PM

He mentioned the source above: "Found in an assortment of donations to a local thrift store."

Hdonly · March 23, 2017, 09:58 PM

I have a similar one. Mine is complete. It is a .22 rifle .410 shotgun single shot that breaks down in two pieces. Mine is made by Bauer Firearms Company in Fraser, Michigan. You will have to excuse the poor quality pictures.

**Mike Irwin** · March 24, 2017, 09:40 AM

I have both the .22 and the .22/410 versions of that.

As others have said, there was never a pistol version of it made.

As such, it's an illegal weapon and needs to be surrendered. Hanging on to it is not a wise choice.

jdc606 · March 24, 2017, 10:18 AM

I was asked by the thrift store ( because I'm a "gun guy") if I had any knowledge of the firearm. I told them I thought it was illegal due to the hacked off barrel. But I knew a website (this one) full of knowledgeable people that may help shed light on the item.
I will inform them today they need to hand it over to the local LEO.

noelf2 · March 27, 2017, 08:12 AM

Not so sure that's an illegal gun. With the stock chopped off, that is a 22 pistol, not a rifle, and is not an NFA gun. It would be an NFA gun if it had the stock on it.

Update: I'm incorrect. Appears to be illegal if the stock was shortened/removed by a third party. How stupid is that?

Hdonly · March 27, 2017, 10:19 AM

It is absolutely an illegal gun. SBR tax stamp must be obtained BEFORE the rifle is cut down. You cannot cut the barrel down and then cut the stock down and call it a legal pistol. It doesn't work that way. It will never be a "pistol". It will always be a "short barreled rifle" and said tax stamp must be obtained first. Take a torch to it and melt it down.

**Mike Irwin** · March 27, 2017, 11:56 AM

"Take a torch to it and melt it down."

No. That could be construed to be tampering with evidence.

The only appropriate course of action is to surrender it.

I couldn't remember the common name of these, it's the Garcia Bronco (finally the brain pulled that up).

So, I googled on Garcia Bronco and I found this thread. Someone really put some work into it. But it's still likely illegal as hell.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/917...se.html&page=1

mapsjanhere · March 27, 2017, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Take a torch to it and melt it down.

That would be destruction of evidence and a felony in itself. Only legal way to deal with it is turn it over to the ATF.

**44 AMP** · March 27, 2017, 12:40 PM

Agree its not legal. Agree it cannot be made legal. Agree that the law is stupid, but it is the law. And most definitely agree that destroying it, on your own (or anything else, like tossing it in the lake) is A CRIME!!!

I believe that surrender to local law enforcement (police /sheriff, State patrol) is sufficient. They will contact ATF and take it from there.

You can, of course contact the ATF directly and deal with it, but surrendering it to local law enforcement is both more convenient, and it gets it out of your hands. Generally speaking, if you go to the cops and say, I think this gun isn't legal, and I don't want it, they will take it from you and say thanks!

You can also get a lawyer, and follow their advice. Other than the cost, its seldom a bad idea.

Tell the folks at the thrift store to call Officer Friendly to come and get it. He will.

carguychris · March 27, 2017, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hdonly

It is absolutely an illegal gun. SBR tax stamp must be obtained BEFORE the rifle is cut down. You cannot cut the barrel down and then cut the stock down and call it a legal pistol. It doesn't work that way. It will never be a "pistol".

+1, and here's the legal citation from 26 USC § 5845(a), my emphasis in boldface:

Quote:

(a) Firearm
The term “firearm” means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and (8) a destructive device. The term “firearm” shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.

Such a weapon is considered equivalent to an SBR and is taxed like one. The ATF just doesn't call out a specific category for "Weapon Made From a Rifle." More here.

There is some confusion about this concept because you CAN lawfully start with a pistol and assemble a non-SBR 16"+ barrel rifle from it WITHOUT invoking the NFA; this is why items like the MechTech Glock Carbine Conversion Kit and Beretta Neos Carbine Kit may be purchased without a tax stamp. IOW pistol-to-rifle is OK, but rifle-to-pistol invokes the NFA, even if the resultant firearm is a 100% legal pistol in every respect OTHER than having started out as a rifle.

Yes, this absolutely makes little to no sense on an intellectual level, but the NFA was not written with modular firearms in mind, and the law is the law.

[EDIT TO ADD] Since this is the C&R forum, perhaps it's worth mentioning that some C&R firearms that would otherwise be SBRs have been exempted from the NFA. However, this classification is specially bestowed by the ATF on specific firearms that originally came in an SBR-like configuration. C&R status does not automatically exempt a modified firearm from the NFA.

**4V50 Gary** · March 28, 2017, 08:19 PM

Can't a longer barrel be installed to make it legal again? There are plenty of 10/22 barrels out there.

James K · March 28, 2017, 08:21 PM

There has been over time, a fair amount of discussion over whether to surrender an illegal firearm (especially an unregistered machinegun or sawed off rifle/shotgun) to BATFE or local police. When a federal law is involved, as in this case, some folks have stated from experience that it is better to deal with BATFE, not local law. The Feds see many more such cases, know that innocent people often are involved, and the affair is less likely to be subject to the whim of some anti-gun crusader with a badge who wants to make a political career out of sending some poor sap to jail for the heck of it. But contact BATFE and follow their instructions; do not tuck it in your belt and head for the Federal Building. That could definitely end up in a bad situation.

Jim

Blindstitch · March 29, 2017, 09:00 PM

Pretty sure the guy who doesn't have a dog in the fight let the thrift store know what he learned and it's their decision.

jdc606 · March 29, 2017, 09:07 PM

Yes... the Thrift store owner called local LEO who came and picked it up. We are "small town" so no big hoopla over it. Couldn't see buy the pictures but the muzzle was so hacked up the thing probably shot to the floor, around corners, or anywhere but where it was pointed.

March 23, 2017, 06:39 PM	#1
jdc606 Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2015 Posts: 129	Mystery gun Single shot, pot metal. Barrel may be shortened. Last edited by jdc606; July 5, 2021 at 11:41 AM.

March 23, 2017, 06:50 PM	#3
jdc606 Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2015 Posts: 129	Firearms International survival/bicycle gun Found it. http://www.gunauction.com/buy/13267659 Barrel has most definitely been shortened. Found in an assortment of donations to a local thrift store.

March 23, 2017, 07:07 PM	#6
jdc606 Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2015 Posts: 129	This one has a serial number. Definitely been butchered into scrap metal. Last edited by jdc606; July 5, 2021 at 11:41 AM.

March 23, 2017, 09:03 PM	#8
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	As fun as it may be to play with, I think I'd have to place a call to a local LE agency and have them pick it up. Butting heads with the ATF isn't my idea of a good time. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

March 23, 2017, 09:03 PM	#9
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	So . . . it it wouldn't be too "forward" to ask - what is the history of it and how did you come by it? I remember the "Trapper" which was the same action and the butt was a skeleton stock. The barrel length of what you have doesn't seem like it would ever be a marketable gun for any purpose other than "making trouble' and I would bet that someone cut it down from the rifle. Hate to ask but did you purchase through a FFL? I kind of doubt that it meets the "legal status" and if it were mine, I'd be putting the hacksaw to good use and scattering the cut up little pieces to the wind. It reminds me of something that you'd fine on the "street", carried by someone who didn't care if it was legal or not. __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

March 23, 2017, 06:43 PM	#2
Blindstitch Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2013 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 2,693	Interesting.

March 23, 2017, 07:00 PM	#5
Blindstitch Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2013 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 2,693	Someone really had their way with it. Probably not worth making it full length again.

March 23, 2017, 08:49 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	If sawn off from rifle - and I never saw a pistol on that action - it is a NFA no-no. I doubt the black helicopters will descend on you for a single shot, but it has no value.

March 23, 2017, 09:09 PM	#10
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	He mentioned the source above: "Found in an assortment of donations to a local thrift store." __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

March 24, 2017, 09:40 AM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	I have both the .22 and the .22/410 versions of that. As others have said, there was never a pistol version of it made. As such, it's an illegal weapon and needs to be surrendered. Hanging on to it is not a wise choice. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 24, 2017, 10:18 AM	#13
jdc606 Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2015 Posts: 129	I was asked by the thrift store ( because I'm a "gun guy") if I had any knowledge of the firearm. I told them I thought it was illegal due to the hacked off barrel. But I knew a website (this one) full of knowledgeable people that may help shed light on the item. I will inform them today they need to hand it over to the local LEO.

March 27, 2017, 08:12 AM	#14
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	Not so sure that's an illegal gun. With the stock chopped off, that is a 22 pistol, not a rifle, and is not an NFA gun. It would be an NFA gun if it had the stock on it. Update: I'm incorrect. Appears to be illegal if the stock was shortened/removed by a third party. How stupid is that? __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither. Last edited by noelf2; March 27, 2017 at 08:30 AM.

March 27, 2017, 10:19 AM	#15
Hdonly Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2013 Posts: 340	It is absolutely an illegal gun. SBR tax stamp must be obtained BEFORE the rifle is cut down. You cannot cut the barrel down and then cut the stock down and call it a legal pistol. It doesn't work that way. It will never be a "pistol". It will always be a "short barreled rifle" and said tax stamp must be obtained first. Take a torch to it and melt it down.

March 27, 2017, 11:56 AM	#16
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	"Take a torch to it and melt it down." No. That could be construed to be tampering with evidence. The only appropriate course of action is to surrender it. I couldn't remember the common name of these, it's the Garcia Bronco (finally the brain pulled that up). So, I googled on Garcia Bronco and I found this thread. Someone really put some work into it. But it's still likely illegal as hell. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/917...se.html&page=1 __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 27, 2017, 12:40 PM	#18
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	Agree its not legal. Agree it cannot be made legal. Agree that the law is stupid, but it is the law. And most definitely agree that destroying it, on your own (or anything else, like tossing it in the lake) is A CRIME!!! I believe that surrender to local law enforcement (police /sheriff, State patrol) is sufficient. They will contact ATF and take it from there. You can, of course contact the ATF directly and deal with it, but surrendering it to local law enforcement is both more convenient, and it gets it out of your hands. Generally speaking, if you go to the cops and say, I think this gun isn't legal, and I don't want it, they will take it from you and say thanks! You can also get a lawyer, and follow their advice. Other than the cost, its seldom a bad idea. Tell the folks at the thrift store to call Officer Friendly to come and get it. He will. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

March 28, 2017, 08:19 PM	#20
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,838	Can't a longer barrel be installed to make it legal again? There are plenty of 10/22 barrels out there. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

March 28, 2017, 08:21 PM	#21
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	There has been over time, a fair amount of discussion over whether to surrender an illegal firearm (especially an unregistered machinegun or sawed off rifle/shotgun) to BATFE or local police. When a federal law is involved, as in this case, some folks have stated from experience that it is better to deal with BATFE, not local law. The Feds see many more such cases, know that innocent people often are involved, and the affair is less likely to be subject to the whim of some anti-gun crusader with a badge who wants to make a political career out of sending some poor sap to jail for the heck of it. But contact BATFE and follow their instructions; do not tuck it in your belt and head for the Federal Building. That could definitely end up in a bad situation. Jim

March 29, 2017, 09:00 PM	#22
Blindstitch Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2013 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 2,693	Pretty sure the guy who doesn't have a dog in the fight let the thrift store know what he learned and it's their decision.

March 29, 2017, 09:07 PM	#23
jdc606 Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2015 Posts: 129	Yes... the Thrift store owner called local LEO who came and picked it up. We are "small town" so no big hoopla over it. Couldn't see buy the pictures but the muzzle was so hacked up the thing probably shot to the floor, around corners, or anywhere but where it was pointed.