ugh. SD ammo - Page 2

BigJimP · July 21, 2009, 12:26 PM

If you really don't want the box of 7 1/2's I'm sure you could return them...

But like others told you - go to another range and practice with the gun.

Putting 10 boxes of bird shot thru that gun for practice / would be a good week ....and teach you a lot more about the gun than getting into a discussion about "bird shot for defense issue ...". I don't think the shop did a bad thing / I think they're suggesting you practice ...

Bill DeShivs · July 21, 2009, 02:07 PM

Shot placement is paramount, but birdshot can be as lethal as a slug.

Anticonn · July 21, 2009, 02:39 PM

Quote:

i know. I personally would not want to be on the receiving end of a full load of #7 1/2. well, maybe at 50 yards. but under 10 yards, no thanks

There are a lot of things I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of, but that doesn't make them a good choice for self defense.

oneounceload · July 21, 2009, 02:40 PM

I doubt a return is possible - every store I have been in has a no returns policy for ammunition and components.

Just either use them or trade them to someone you know who DOES shoot targets/birds for something else - not a big issue worthy of two pages of bandwidth

mp25ds4 · July 21, 2009, 02:44 PM

you can give it to me if you want

MLeake · July 21, 2009, 03:11 PM

... wildlife management, or whatever they call it in your state.... and see if there are any public, outdoor ranges near you, where you can shoot shotguns.

Or, find and join a club for trap, skeet, or sporting clays.

Or, see if any of your friends have some acreage out in the sticks. (I have a few of those; kind of nice being able to shoot from the comfort of the back porch....)

There are a few reasons you can't shoot shotshells at many ranges: concern for the mess / possibility of environmental impact fees as pellets go all over the place outdoors; slightly higher possibility of damage to target holders and range equipment at outdoor and indoor ranges; high possibility of ricochets with steel shot at indoor ranges. A friend in Florida who has an indoor range has had issues with that last one; he now allows only slugs, and only allows people he knows personally to bring shotguns into his range.

However, you still should be able to find a place where you can use shot within a reasonable drive of wherever you are. It just may take some work.

ADB · July 21, 2009, 03:13 PM

Has anyone else here seen what birdshot does in ballistic gel? I have. If you're under, say, 20 feet from your target, birdshot will pretty much turn it into haggis. I'm not saying it's the ultimate home defense round, but people tend to grossly underestimate the power of a round of bird shot when it's properly used. Go to the local police, and ask them how many times they've seen a perpetrator keep coming after getting hit with a load of birdshot at HD ranges.

mathman · July 21, 2009, 03:38 PM

I agree that birdshot is better than nothing...much better than nothing in fact.

However, no matter how you slice it, unless you are concerned about overpenetration...buckshot is better for home defense.

Just do the math (pun intended): A load of buckshot (say with 12 pellets) has 12 projectiles that are 0.33 inches in diameter...this is a little smaller in diameter than a 9mm (or 38, 357). If you hit your nemesis with even half of these, that is 6 fairly large holes...it is granted that the weight of these pellets is much less than a 9mm (or 38, 357)...but you still have a lot of holes to leak from.

From 10 feet, it doesn't matter what you use...but how do we know for sure what the distance will be?

hogdogs · July 21, 2009, 03:38 PM

Ballistic gel is not a comparison medium for humans or any other animal. It is a consistent material that is also transparent. It is simply a material that allows comparisons of characteristics between various design and manufacture differences. That said, you cannot get a guaranteed depth of penetration nor wound channel in enuff situations with simple birdshot. The kind of variations that ballistic gel does not have the ability to factor in.
Thus the nick name for miscreant young males... "Young Buck"

Brent

cedjunior · July 21, 2009, 03:52 PM

At anything more than point blank range, birdshot will give you nothing more that a big bloody but mostly superficial wound.

I just can't understand why some people just HAVE to have the birdshot.

armsmaster270 · July 21, 2009, 04:35 PM

If I was going to use Shot I would opt for #2 Heavishot

MLeake · July 21, 2009, 04:35 PM

I don't think any poster in this thread has advocated birdshot.

Some of us have said that it very well can be lethal, at close ranges. Some of us have pointed out that smaller shot is recommended if you live in something along the lines of an apartment building.

Most of us, though, have indicated that we generally recommend buck.

Nice strawman, though.

Kyo · July 21, 2009, 04:43 PM

pretty much thats what I got told. that the 7 1/2 won't go through walls. and the 00 is like shooting a bunch of 9mm bullets(his words not mine) so because I am uneducated about the subject, naturally I am going to believe the guy behind the counter. Live and learn

hogdogs · July 21, 2009, 05:01 PM

Any ammo can and will penetrate a wall at HD distance with a force high enough to cause great bodily harm.

My way of looking at it is "Nothing slows a projectile like warm squishy torso." Missing the target with loved ones or other innocent folks behind the BG is just unacceptable. Know your target and what lies beyond is rule number one for setting up an HD shot. Hitting said target has to be rule #2. That said, it don't matter if you choose 00 buck as the risk is mitigated by the greatly slowed projectiles

Brent

shortwave · July 21, 2009, 05:55 PM

Rampant_Colt wrote:

Quote:

300 pound drunken/druggie biker

Thats just blatant biker profiling. Why couldn`t it have been a 300 pound drunken/druggie balerina or tennis player

. Kyo, sounds as though you`re in a quandrey thats more important than what to do with that 25rd box of birdshot. No place to shoot new shotgun other than with slugs. Do you realize how many slugs you`ll have to put down the barrel to be sufficient enough to use shotgun for HD. My suggestion is to find a spot were you CAN shoot that box of birdshot along with 3-4 cases more. Then survey your home and choose the best HD round for your situation,get some of that and shoot some more. Remember other than your CCW your HD weapon is the one you should be most efficient with and that requires continual practice,practice and more of the same. For what its worth, if your around Ohio I can probably hook you up with a place.

greyson97 · July 21, 2009, 06:01 PM

i dunno. we are debating the merits of ONE 7 1/2 bird shot shell. He does have 25 of them you know.

OP, you didnt mention what type of 12 ga you got. Pump, semi, SxS, O/U?

cause yes, the wound may be shallow, and not penetrate the rib cage, but it will deliver a lot of force to the target, like getting hit in the chest with a baseball bat.

and if it doesnt disable the target, you shoot them again. and again if you have to.

Rampant_Colt · July 21, 2009, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greyson97

i dunno. we are debating the merits of ONE 7 1/2 bird shot shell. He does have 25 of them you know.

OP, you didnt mention what type of 12 ga you got. Pump, semi, SxS, O/U?

cause yes, the wound may be shallow, and not penetrate the rib cage, but it will deliver a lot of force to the target, like getting hit in the chest with a baseball bat.

and if it doesnt disable the target, you shoot them again. and again if you have to

What if the bad guy's shooting back at you?
You've just given the advantage to the bad guy and lost the fight..

You may only get one shot off at said bad guy - MAKE IT COUNT!

Using birdshot for self-defense is pure folly

Bill DeShivs · July 21, 2009, 07:57 PM

At 10 Feet, 7-1/2 birdshot will very nearly penetrate a human.

greyson97 · July 21, 2009, 08:08 PM

Quote:

What if the bad guy's shooting back at you?
You've just given the advantage to the bad guy and lost the fight..
You may only get one shot off at said bad guy - MAKE IT COUNT!
Using birdshot for self-defense is pure folly

i doubt any human can take a load of bird shot to the chest and be so unfazed they can properly return fire.

my point is, if you practice, you can get a 7 1/2 load into a persons chest. injure him as well as faze him, and then get a follow up shot.

and if you only have one shot and miss, well it wont matter if you miss with 00 or 7 1/2

also, 00 buck is approximately the equivalent of a 9mm ball round. in the other forums, people will argue that 9mm ball is insufficient stopping power for a hand gun and you need a .40 or even a .45

so no matter what sort of argument we make, it will never be enough until its agreed upon that the best HD weapon is an abrahms tank.

hogdogs · July 21, 2009, 08:29 PM

greyson, Aren't you a self admitted newguy to shotgunnin'?
If I am correct in this, you will notice in short order that we have several regular guys in this section that are "PRO" (career involved shot guns to some degree) in this arena. There are also a bunch of guys who are regular sporting clays shooters. Some of these 2 groups use shot gun for HD. Then there are those of us who have just a gob of day to day use of shotguns from just shooting targets of various material to hunting for the sole purpose of gathering meat rather than go hungry (muscovy duck is gross, bisquick and water is gross but the 2 together is edible

). Some of us have done a bunch of impromptu penetration testing for various reasons and have already made the decisions of what works for what. Heck, I won't intentionally load smaller than #4 for coons but many others find #6 to be fine. If I wouldn't load smaller than #4 for a coon under 20 yards (switch to small buck shot for further shots) Why would I ever feel 7 1/2 is reliable for ALL possible HD situations. Combine all of the negatives such as "thick" folks doped on drugs, wearing excessive clothing, and psychotic nut job all rolled into one... Gimme no less than #3 buck in my 20 and I am praying it will suffice. I have other arms but that 20 is my short barrel pump and I have a very close affection and familiarity with that particular firearm. I feel the "BA/UU/R" of Dave McC is why that gun is my go to. Short of rimfire, I don't think I have 1/4 the number of rounds down range with any other gauge or caliber let alone one gun that I have out of that one gun. Am self educated on what I can expect from each shot size and and that says that, short of a miracle, birdshot cannot be expected to incapacitate a threat in one well placed shot EVERYTIME...
Brent

greyson97 · July 21, 2009, 08:36 PM

i would like to state, that i never said 7 1/2 was BETTER than 00. I have 00 in my HD gun. I am just arguing that you can defend yourself and incapacitate someone with multiple birdshot rounds if necessary

just like you can defend yourself with a .22. I wouldnt want to, but you can

Anticonn · July 21, 2009, 08:39 PM

You know what works better than birdshot for stopping and is guaranteed not to over-penetrate?

Breaching rounds.

*grabs popcorn*

Now that I've stirred the pot, this video on YouTube has highspeed video of birdshot, buckshot, slug, etc impacts in ballistic gelatin, around 6 minutes: Rounds of Authority. It doesn't have any real new information for this discussion, but it's nifty. And they shoot a breaching round into gelatin at 11:20, as well as flares and some other absurd things, just for giggles.

dwwhite · July 21, 2009, 08:42 PM

While I don't have much intelligent to add to the bird v. buck debate,,

To address part of the OP's question,

If I were a betting man, I would guess that the reason the salesperson sold you birdshot is because that's what he had on hand. If the ammo shelves at their store looks anything like the ones I frequent, buckshot, and any other "defensive" ammo has been in pretty short supply.

It becomes an issue of making a $12 sale with what's on hand or sending your customer down the street to your competitor.

greyson97 · July 21, 2009, 08:46 PM

i mean dont get me wrong, or get me wrong whatever. on another board in this forum, one guy is like "hey is a 30-6 bolt action rifle ok for HD in an apartment?" and everyone over there is like, "make do with what you have", and "its better to have something than nothing", and over here its like "7 1/2 birdshot for HD?" and the replies are "NOOOO! YOU'RE WRONG!!!!"

*cries*

oneounceload · July 21, 2009, 08:47 PM

While I like 7-1/2's and 8's, even 8-1/2's for the thousands of clays I shoot annually, I prefer something heavier in the old HD gun. IF you can't get one of the buck shot sizes, then grab a turkey load or even a heavy #2 or #4 bird load. Yes, 7-1/2 at close range MAY do the job. I would think if you hit the knee close enough, most of the leg would be somewhere else, but I would prefer the heavier load to that. FWIW, my primary HD gun is a pistol, the 500 is in the closet. ANYTHING is better than shouting nasty words.......

July 21, 2009, 02:07 PM	#27
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	Shot placement is paramount, but birdshot can be as lethal as a slug. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

July 21, 2009, 02:44 PM	#30
mp25ds4 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Posts: 392	you can give it to me if you want __________________ Liberal Newscaster Katie Couric, while interviewing a Marine sniper, asked: 'What do you feel.....when you shoot a Terrorist?' The Marine shrugged and replied, "A Slight Recoil."

July 21, 2009, 03:11 PM	#31
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Or find the website for your state's fish and game... ... wildlife management, or whatever they call it in your state.... and see if there are any public, outdoor ranges near you, where you can shoot shotguns. Or, find and join a club for trap, skeet, or sporting clays. Or, see if any of your friends have some acreage out in the sticks. (I have a few of those; kind of nice being able to shoot from the comfort of the back porch....) There are a few reasons you can't shoot shotshells at many ranges: concern for the mess / possibility of environmental impact fees as pellets go all over the place outdoors; slightly higher possibility of damage to target holders and range equipment at outdoor and indoor ranges; high possibility of ricochets with steel shot at indoor ranges. A friend in Florida who has an indoor range has had issues with that last one; he now allows only slugs, and only allows people he knows personally to bring shotguns into his range. However, you still should be able to find a place where you can use shot within a reasonable drive of wherever you are. It just may take some work. Last edited by MLeake; July 21, 2009 at 03:32 PM. Reason: grammar

July 21, 2009, 03:38 PM	#33
mathman Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2005 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,531	I agree that birdshot is better than nothing...much better than nothing in fact. However, no matter how you slice it, unless you are concerned about overpenetration...buckshot is better for home defense. Just do the math (pun intended): A load of buckshot (say with 12 pellets) has 12 projectiles that are 0.33 inches in diameter...this is a little smaller in diameter than a 9mm (or 38, 357). If you hit your nemesis with even half of these, that is 6 fairly large holes...it is granted that the weight of these pellets is much less than a 9mm (or 38, 357)...but you still have a lot of holes to leak from. From 10 feet, it doesn't matter what you use...but how do we know for sure what the distance will be? __________________ Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak.

July 21, 2009, 04:35 PM	#36
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	If I was going to use Shot I would opt for #2 Heavishot __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

July 21, 2009, 12:26 PM	#26
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	If you really don't want the box of 7 1/2's I'm sure you could return them... But like others told you - go to another range and practice with the gun. Putting 10 boxes of bird shot thru that gun for practice / would be a good week ....and teach you a lot more about the gun than getting into a discussion about "bird shot for defense issue ...". I don't think the shop did a bad thing / I think they're suggesting you practice ...

July 21, 2009, 02:40 PM	#29
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	I doubt a return is possible - every store I have been in has a no returns policy for ammunition and components. Just either use them or trade them to someone you know who DOES shoot targets/birds for something else - not a big issue worthy of two pages of bandwidth

July 21, 2009, 03:13 PM	#32
ADB Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2009 Posts: 399	Has anyone else here seen what birdshot does in ballistic gel? I have. If you're under, say, 20 feet from your target, birdshot will pretty much turn it into haggis. I'm not saying it's the ultimate home defense round, but people tend to grossly underestimate the power of a round of bird shot when it's properly used. Go to the local police, and ask them how many times they've seen a perpetrator keep coming after getting hit with a load of birdshot at HD ranges.

July 21, 2009, 03:38 PM	#34
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Ballistic gel is not a comparison medium for humans or any other animal. It is a consistent material that is also transparent. It is simply a material that allows comparisons of characteristics between various design and manufacture differences. That said, you cannot get a guaranteed depth of penetration nor wound channel in enuff situations with simple birdshot. The kind of variations that ballistic gel does not have the ability to factor in. Thus the nick name for miscreant young males... "Young Buck" Brent

July 21, 2009, 03:52 PM	#35
cedjunior Member Join Date: September 29, 2006 Posts: 49	At anything more than point blank range, birdshot will give you nothing more that a big bloody but mostly superficial wound. I just can't understand why some people just HAVE to have the birdshot.

July 21, 2009, 04:35 PM	#37
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Who just HAS to have the birdshot? I don't think any poster in this thread has advocated birdshot. Some of us have said that it very well can be lethal, at close ranges. Some of us have pointed out that smaller shot is recommended if you live in something along the lines of an apartment building. Most of us, though, have indicated that we generally recommend buck. Nice strawman, though.

July 21, 2009, 04:43 PM	#38
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	pretty much thats what I got told. that the 7 1/2 won't go through walls. and the 00 is like shooting a bunch of 9mm bullets(his words not mine) so because I am uneducated about the subject, naturally I am going to believe the guy behind the counter. Live and learn

July 21, 2009, 05:01 PM	#39
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Any ammo can and will penetrate a wall at HD distance with a force high enough to cause great bodily harm. My way of looking at it is "Nothing slows a projectile like warm squishy torso." Missing the target with loved ones or other innocent folks behind the BG is just unacceptable. Know your target and what lies beyond is rule number one for setting up an HD shot. Hitting said target has to be rule #2. That said, it don't matter if you choose 00 buck as the risk is mitigated by the greatly slowed projectiles Brent

July 21, 2009, 06:01 PM	#41
greyson97 Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2009 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,284	i dunno. we are debating the merits of ONE 7 1/2 bird shot shell. He does have 25 of them you know. OP, you didnt mention what type of 12 ga you got. Pump, semi, SxS, O/U? cause yes, the wound may be shallow, and not penetrate the rib cage, but it will deliver a lot of force to the target, like getting hit in the chest with a baseball bat. and if it doesnt disable the target, you shoot them again. and again if you have to. __________________ "Some people think they can outsmart me. Maybe, maybe. I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." -Heavy si vis pacem, para bellum

July 21, 2009, 07:57 PM	#43
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	At 10 Feet, 7-1/2 birdshot will very nearly penetrate a human. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

July 21, 2009, 08:29 PM	#45
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	greyson, Aren't you a self admitted newguy to shotgunnin'? If I am correct in this, you will notice in short order that we have several regular guys in this section that are "PRO" (career involved shot guns to some degree) in this arena. There are also a bunch of guys who are regular sporting clays shooters. Some of these 2 groups use shot gun for HD. Then there are those of us who have just a gob of day to day use of shotguns from just shooting targets of various material to hunting for the sole purpose of gathering meat rather than go hungry (muscovy duck is gross, bisquick and water is gross but the 2 together is edible). Some of us have done a bunch of impromptu penetration testing for various reasons and have already made the decisions of what works for what. Heck, I won't intentionally load smaller than #4 for coons but many others find #6 to be fine. If I wouldn't load smaller than #4 for a coon under 20 yards (switch to small buck shot for further shots) Why would I ever feel 7 1/2 is reliable for *ALL* possible HD situations. Combine all of the negatives such as "thick" folks doped on drugs, wearing excessive clothing, and psychotic nut job all rolled into one... Gimme no less than #3 buck in my 20 and I am praying it will suffice. I have other arms but that 20 is my short barrel pump and I have a very close affection and familiarity with that particular firearm. I feel the "BA/UU/R" of Dave McC is why that gun is my go to. Short of rimfire, I don't think I have 1/4 the number of rounds down range with any other gauge or caliber let alone one gun that I have out of that one gun. Am self educated on what I can expect from each shot size and and that says that, short of a miracle, birdshot cannot be expected to incapacitate a threat in one well placed shot EVERYTIME... Brent

July 21, 2009, 08:36 PM	#46
greyson97 Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2009 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,284	i would like to state, that i never said 7 1/2 was BETTER than 00. I have 00 in my HD gun. I am just arguing that you can defend yourself and incapacitate someone with multiple birdshot rounds if necessary just like you can defend yourself with a .22. I wouldnt want to, but you can __________________ "Some people think they can outsmart me. Maybe, maybe. I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." -Heavy si vis pacem, para bellum

July 21, 2009, 08:39 PM	#47
Anticonn Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 174	You know what works better than birdshot for stopping and is guaranteed not to over-penetrate? Breaching rounds. grabs popcorn Now that I've stirred the pot, this video on YouTube has highspeed video of birdshot, buckshot, slug, etc impacts in ballistic gelatin, around 6 minutes: Rounds of Authority. It doesn't have any real new information for this discussion, but it's nifty. And they shoot a breaching round into gelatin at 11:20, as well as flares and some other absurd things, just for giggles. __________________ "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759

July 21, 2009, 08:42 PM	#48
dwwhite Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2008 Location: Southwest Tx Posts: 187	While I don't have much intelligent to add to the bird v. buck debate,, To address part of the OP's question, If I were a betting man, I would guess that the reason the salesperson sold you birdshot is because that's what he had on hand. If the ammo shelves at their store looks anything like the ones I frequent, buckshot, and any other "defensive" ammo has been in pretty short supply. It becomes an issue of making a $12 sale with what's on hand or sending your customer down the street to your competitor.

July 21, 2009, 08:46 PM	#49
greyson97 Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2009 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,284	i mean dont get me wrong, or get me wrong whatever. on another board in this forum, one guy is like "hey is a 30-6 bolt action rifle ok for HD in an apartment?" and everyone over there is like, "make do with what you have", and "its better to have something than nothing", and over here its like "7 1/2 birdshot for HD?" and the replies are "NOOOO! YOU'RE WRONG!!!!" cries __________________ "Some people think they can outsmart me. Maybe, maybe. I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." -Heavy si vis pacem, para bellum

July 21, 2009, 08:47 PM	#50
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	While I like 7-1/2's and 8's, even 8-1/2's for the thousands of clays I shoot annually, I prefer something heavier in the old HD gun. IF you can't get one of the buck shot sizes, then grab a turkey load or even a heavy #2 or #4 bird load. Yes, 7-1/2 at close range MAY do the job. I would think if you hit the knee close enough, most of the leg would be somewhere else, but I would prefer the heavier load to that. FWIW, my primary HD gun is a pistol, the 500 is in the closet. ANYTHING is better than shouting nasty words.......